STORAGE INSTALL

[91LMS]

i spend numerous hours reading this forum... however dont want to make mistakes that i have in the past where you all have set me straight! i would like to have the plans ironed out before rather than have to make corrections. i have 1000 gallons of horizontal pressurized storage in a builing along with my boiler pumping which pumps 100 feet to the house underground. just a rough sketch but its something for folks to comment on....

i need some input on my plumbing for storage, theory for return protection (cant find a danfoss with t-stat for sale), and the proper pump locations to make sure i dont get reverse or ghost flow and minimize pumps.

i plan on pulling from storage for loads and sticking with boiler only charging storage.

is there a cheap (effective) route for boiler protection???

 

[ewdudley]

Here's one approach with a boiler loop re-circulation pump and another pump to inject water into the loop from storage. All pumps were salvage, so all I've got into it is a $35 PID controller and a couple $12 relays, electrical work, plus a day or so of very exact black pipe work.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/gasser-online.62686/

As designed and implemented there's two injection pumps with controls to activate the second one if supply temperature gets hot enough, but after a couple of year of operating the system I've come to the conclusion that only one injection pump is necessary (although the automated fail-safe aspect might pay off someday).

A big advantage is that you can set the return temperature anywhere you want it, which in effect sets the supply temperature as well.

 

[jebatty]

A few comments. For return protection I use the Termovar. No issues since the install in 2007. EWD's suggestion also is good.

You likely will get a ghost flow between the boiler and the storage, as hot water rises. Insulate the pipes well, install a U-shaped pipe heat trap on the supply side of the tank, or use a check valve to prevent the flow. I just insulate my pipes because the boiler/storage is in a heated space and the heat lost from the ghost flow is useful in the space anyway.

Your boiler supply/return to/from the tank is on the same end of the tank. It is possible that supply water in the tank will loop internal in the tank directly on a path to return water. That possibility can be eliminated by putting supply on one end and return on the other. Alternative which I use is on the supply side to install internal to the tank a horizontal extension on the supply pipe to shoot the supply water towards the opposite end of the tank. This has worked very well for me, my flow is 12-14 gpm and stratification is excellent, and no evidence of return water warmer than bottom of tank water.

System supply/return has the same potential issue, but you show opposite ends of the tank so should not be a problem.

What is the purpose of the storage aquastat?

I hope your install will go well and soon you will be enjoying tremendous satisfaction at a job well done.

 

[JP11]

My initial thought was..

isn't the expansion tank in the wrong spot?

My fuzzy memory says that it is T'ed in at the input side of a pump.

JP

 

[jebatty]

Another suggestion. Install temp sensors on the tank to digital readout panel meters to keep you advised of the condition of your storage. I suggest a "top" sensor about 1/4 of the way down from the top of tank, a middle of tank sensor, and a bottom of tank sensor. The middle of tank sensor will provide you with info to determine quite well the available storage capacity in the tank, and that will let you know how much you need to fire the boiler to bring storage up to the temp you want. With weighed wood burns, you should have the ability then to load your boiler, charge storage, all without any boiler idling.

The sensors may be installed in the surface of the tank, then covered with the tank insulation. That will be accurate enough for almost any purpose. For additional info, you also may want similar sensors/meters on your boiler supply/return to/from the tank, and on your system supply/return from/to the tank. Another useful sensor is a K-type in the flue to provide a flue temp readout.

 

[jebatty]

Here is a pix of my monitoring panel.

 

[ewdudley]

i need some input on my plumbing for storage, theory for return protection (cant find a danfoss with t-stat for sale), and the proper pump locations to make sure i dont get reverse or ghost flow and minimize pumps.

Danfoss/Termovar/or equivalent should be available from most any boiler dealer or distributor, or on-line for $200 (both parts) from PexSupply: http://www.pexsupply.com/Danfoss .

Storage pump goes on boiler return inlet line between mixing valve and boiler, or on boiler supply outlet line between boiler and tee the feeds supply to tanks or bypass back to mixing valve.

 

[jebatty]

A link to the monitoring panel I just finished installing yesterday on a Froling.

Froling Monitor Panel

 

[91LMS]

Danfoss/Termovar/or equivalent should be available from most any boiler dealer or distributor, or on-line for $200 (both parts) from PexSupply: http://www.pexsupply.com/Danfoss .

thanks, i have looked on pex supply numerous times and never found the tstat for the body... maybe my wife is right about me looking with my eyes open

 

[91LMS]

My initial thought was..

isn't the expansion tank in the wrong spot?

My fuzzy memory says that it is T'ed in at the input side of a pump.

JP

i wasnt sure where to put the tank, i have a 1" bung that is not used and thought it would be cheaper and only had to be hooked to the pressurized tank to allow for expansion. i am all ears guys, making revisions all the time.

i had plans of an aqua stat hooked to storage to eventually make my fossil boiler and wood boiler switch over automatically. i am planning on manual for now to cut costs a bit.

 

[Nofossil]

Cheapest route for inlet protection is probably a small circulator plumbed outlet-to-inlet and a snap-action thermal switch on the inlet. I think you'd need to plumb the main wood boiler circ to the outlet above the tee for the bypass circ so that both the main wood boiler circ and the bypass circ are drawing from the boiler outlet.

 

[Clarkbug]

i had plans of an aqua stat hooked to storage to eventually make my fossil boiler and wood boiler switch over automatically. i am planning on manual for now to cut costs a bit

I have this setup now, and it works pretty well for days when you feel like sleeping in, or have to work a few extra hours before you can feed the wood boiler. Manual switch is also a good thing to have so you can exercise the oil boiler when you want to. (Yep, its hard to do when you have that nice pile of wood that you could burn instead....)

Where is the fossil boiler in your diagram? Any ideas how you intend to plumb that in?

 

[91LMS]

[quoteWhere is the fossil boiler in your diagram? Any ideas how you intend to plumb that in?[/quote]

i hope to at some point plumb a primary loop in the house and plumb both wood and fossil boilers as injection into the loop. at this rate, functional is my goal.

currently i have supply from wood t'd into supply at fossil and likewise on return side. last winter my boiler was plumbed inside the house with no storage and wood supply to fossil return. at the time i had a domestic coil in my fossil boiler. it worked ok but certainly could see in my first year of operation that supply to supply and storage is the only way to fly.

 

[JP11]

I have one injection loop. My storage water goes into the HOT leg of the oil boiler with closely spaced T's.

There is a dedicated circulator to pull from storage to this loop. That circulator is powered if a zone calls for heat, and storage aqua stat is above set value ( for me.. about 138 or so degrees)

If the aqua stat is not met on storage, it allows the oil boiler to fire as it always did. Yes, I get a little bit of ghost flow out to storage. Not an appreciable amount.

JP

 

[JTWALL]

I hope this is not a repeat comment...the situation I found with the hot-dog shaped tank is that the water temperature stratifies. Water temperature near the boiler will be higher than the opposite end (if you plumb the system as shown). Suggest in and out lines connected to boiler be at opposite ends of the storage tank. Good luck!

 

[91LMS]

I hope this is not a repeat comment...the situation I found with the hot-dog shaped tank is that the water temperature stratifies. Water temperature near the boiler will be higher than the opposite end (if you plumb the system as shown). Suggest in and out lines connected to boiler be at opposite ends of the storage tank. Good luck!

this is what i was advise and plan on doing so. trying to seperate supply and returns at opposite ends

 

[91LMS]

so the install is well underway. boiler should be moved into the building and plumbed in by the end of the weekend. over the time spent threading what seems to be miles of pipe, i have a couple questions...

when i plumbed my cold lines off the bottom of my tank i was wondering if i should i have some kind of screen or strainer for debris? i used t's so that i could allow for drains and possibly flushing debris where they turn 90 deg and run vertical. but wondering if this is sufficient .... fine time to ask after i am all threaded together, lol.

boiler supply/load supply are seperated from boiler return/load return at opposite ends of the tank and of course top and bottom. wanting to keep cold and hot water seperated am i going to be better off to weld a bung in to return load water to storage mid point and try to keep the bottom of the tank colder for boiler return water?

what kind of measures have peeps gone through to clean and flush out a propane tank prior to filling? does my initial fill need to have any kind of treatment added?

 

[Coal Reaper]

I put wye strainers on each line coming out of the tanks.
Your supplies and returns will be alright on opposite sides of tank. Mine are Ted in and if supply temps approach 200* when boiler is running i need to shut off loop to house for the rest of the burn because the return to boiler will get too hot. I dont really charge that high anyway. But this does allow me to start pumping LOTS of HOT water to house when firing from dead cold storage. If i were to do things over i would have used the storage tanks as a buffer between house return and boiler return.
I cleaned my tanks with a long pipe attached to shop vac. Havent cleaned wyes yet. Treatment is a good question. I didnt use any...

 

[91LMS]

I put wye strainers on each line coming out of the tanks.

I cleaned my tanks with a long pipe attached to shop vac. Havent cleaned wyes yet. Treatment is a good question. I didnt use any...

good thinking on the cleaning i was planning on flushing but this may be much easier. now to find 1.25" iron strainers.

 

[maple1]

I've got a Wye just before the return inlet on my loading unit. Drained it a couple times but there wasn't much there. Flushed mine with a pressure washer, but not sure that was necessary - didn't seem to get much dirt coming out. Treament, well, umm, not likely a recommended procedure but - we've got one of those 15' soft sided swimming pools for the kids that gets taken down every fall. What I did was run the filter on that for a few days & skimmed so I got the water nice & clean, along with boosting the PH up until it got over 8. After I got it nice & clean & stabilized, I drained the pool into my tanks until they were full. We've got a shallow dug well for water so I didn't want to run the well dry filling storage.

 

[woodsmaster]

Depends what treatment you use. Stuff I used I filled system, Added cleaner, brought up to temp, drained, refilled and added treatment. It was a little work and a lot of water but worth it to protect the investment.

 

[Coal Reaper]

Flushing did nothing for my tanks. Actually made it a pita to vacuum the now wet sludge out.

 

[91LMS]

my tank looks clean inside, just a bit of slag from burning holes in for the added bungs so the shop vac should do the trick. the supply to boiler from storage runs vertical 8' before heading to the boiler so wondering if that sediment would ever travel to a pump or valve anyways?

worried about filling mine as well. had plans for having a water truck haul to me at least for the majority but now with the weather turning dont know that is going to be an option. partially filling daily wont really work either unless i have a space heater of sorts to keep the building warm until i am up and running..

 

[woodsmaster]

my tank looks clean inside, just a bit of slag from burning holes in for the added bungs so the shop vac should do the trick. the supply to boiler from storage runs vertical 8' before heading to the boiler so wondering if that sediment would ever travel to a pump or valve anyways?

worried about filling mine as well. had plans for having a water truck haul to me at least for the majority but now with the weather turning dont know that is going to be an option. partially filling daily wont really work either unless i have a space heater of sorts to keep the building warm until i am up and running..

You need to test your water and see if it's suitable for a boiler first off.
edit - At very minimum check the ph. You don't want to put acidic water in your boiler. You also dont want a bunch of minerals in it that will plug up your hx over time

 

[91LMS]

well after 3 days and what seems like miles of pipe i am plumbed up, boiler is moved from house to boiler house. i will post some pics, didnt implement boiler protection but put the provisions in the plumbing to add it. my thoughts and hopes are that storage wont dip below the 140 mark. pexsupply will be the end of this week(two weeks ship time) on the danfoss and wont have the t-stat to me till almost xmas time. getting excited and hoping for no leaks, lol.