Storage Research

[JMann]

Can someone recommend a starting point for researching HW storage? My boiler is in a detached, uninsulated garage. I have a pressurized system, connected to my existing oil fired furnace (burnham jubilee). My house is approx 1,880 ft'

-Where should I keep the device

-What manufacturers are out there that specifically make these (and make them well).

-Would it even work with my setup

Thanks,

 

[afblue]

I wont say that there arent manufactures out there, but for the most part the manufactured systems are rather $$$ so most all people here have made there own storage. The first would be is what space you have to put something in and what are you trying to accomplish.
Are you trying to store heat so you can lengthen the time between boiler firings?
Are you trying to reduce the boiler from idling ?
What space do you have avaiable? The best place is in a heated location, but the limitation is how much space you have in your basement, and if you have the access to get pressurized tanks in there. Next best is an unpressurized storage essentially an insulated water bath, then from there you are looking at tanks in uninsulated areas, that will need to be insulated to reduce heat loss.

The most common pressurized system that people use are large propane tanks, and then from there its a little bit of an imagination what you can do with them and where you can put it
Unpressurized storage is typically a home made structure that is pretty well insulated and has a EDPM rubber liner to hold the water, Then copper coils that are connected into your heating system are used to transfer heat in and out of the water bath for BTU storage.

 

[benjamin]

You've found the best place to start researching, right here. You could also look at some manufacturer's sites (Varmebronnen(sp?) comes to mind) that recommend buffer tanks or storage. My take is that the technology is more widely adopted in Europe, especially Germany and Scandanavia, and there's not that much awareness in North America.

Builditsolar.com is a great place to read about solar storage which does the same thing, but is usually handled a little differently.

Basically you're on your own. You could try describing your system more and asking for advice or proposing your storage solution and what you want it to do. We're pretty good at shooting holes in anything!

 

[flyingcow]

My first thought was if you went with storage, would your uninsulated building stay above freezing in between firings. Just a thought.


My unpressurized tank works very well. I use the system year round. Very well insulated. Fits in my basement. It does not have a EPDM liner. It's PVC based, i think. It will take high temps better than a EPDM. I bought it, the HX's are second to none. Heat transfer is good.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

IPS in Wisconsin will make anything you want & at reasonable prices. They can ship it or you could make a road trip. They can put in domestic coils etc etc. With the price of steel nothing is going to be cheap in a new tank, I think they are a great value though. What is nice with your detached garage is that you could probably use one large vertical tank that would stratify well, wouldn't need stacking etc etc. Randy

 

[tom in maine]

[quote author="benjamin" date="1302142900"]You've found the best place to start researching, right here. You could also look at some manufacturer's sites (Varmebronnen(sp?) comes to mind) that recommend buffer tanks or storage. My take is that the technology is more widely adopted in Europe, especially Germany and Scandanavia, and there's not that much awareness in North America.





I would take some issue with that. The original gasifiers done at the University of Maine all used storage systems. This was at a time when most European wood boilers made creosote as a byproduct. The Europeans jumped over us, enhancing their designs based on that original work while using storage to enhance performance.

My read on European storage systems is that they are nicely engineered and attractive but are cumbersome and expensive. There are enough American sources to eliminate the shipping costs of a tank from Europe or anywhere else overseas.

If I was researching, I would also check out Tarm since they offer both pressurized and unpressurized systems. Both have their merits, as is endlessly discussed in these forums.

Build it solar is a good DIY resource. As I mentioned before, if I was stick building a tank out of wood, I would not use anything other than pressure treated lumber and stainless fasteners. It is cheap insurance.

 

[JMann]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated.

I'd like to burn less fires keeping my wood consumption low. This season, I've burned eight cords of seasoned splits. My boiler states that it works well with large rounds but handling the splits is so much easier (my wife thinks so too). Ideally, I'd like to be around one fire every 24 hours or so but not sure if I can make that work.
Location is also a question. I have pex lines running from the detached outbuilding, running underground (thermopex) into the basement all the way to a 30 plate heat exchanger. That would mean that the best temps I could get would be about 180* in order to protect the lines from failing. If I had to keep temp at 180* would storage work well under those conditions? I assume sizing will also be a major factor as well.

 

[afblue]

What is your heat delivery system? IE are you running baseboard, radiant panels, radiant floors, a heat exchanger in a forced air duct? the output required for the heat delivery to work is going to define what your storage should perform to.

 

[JMann]

Thanks - I'm using the existing radiators about one per room (10). My house was built in 1938: 1800 ft', wood siding, same windows (23), no insulation (except for attic).

 

[flyingcow]

FWIW- I've got my boiler 75ft away from my house. Once the piping is inside the basement, It runs about 40ft to my storage tank, which is in same room as my oil boiler. Tee's right into existing heating system there. I think it works quite well. The storage tank came in pieces. Assembled very easily in a corner of basement. The tank has a DHW HX in it also. Just hooked that into existing DHW of house.

 

[JMann]

That sounds like my existing setup (minus the tank). Are you running into a plate exchanger before it hits the existing boiler or do you have an open system? What is the name of tank you're using?

 

[Needshave]

I'm going through the same thing you are. We bought a piece of land that we plan to build on. I've been changing my mind on what type of heating system to put in. Looks like we'll be putting in a boiler with storage. Off the shelf storage systems are not as common as you would think.

 

[flyingcow]

That sounds like my existing setup (minus the tank). Are you running into a plate exchanger before it hits the existing boiler or do you have an open system? What is the name of tank you're using?

No plate HX. Actually not running into oil boiler at all. It's all tied into the regular pressurized system.

Look at my signature for the maker of my tank.

 

[leaddog]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated.

I'd like to burn less fires keeping my wood consumption low. This season, I've burned eight cords of seasoned splits. My boiler states that it works well with large rounds but handling the splits is so much easier (my wife thinks so too). Ideally, I'd like to be around one fire every 24 hours or so but not sure if I can make that work.
Location is also a question. I have pex lines running from the detached outbuilding, running underground (thermopex) into the basement all the way to a 30 plate heat exchanger. That would mean that the best temps I could get would be about 180* in order to protect the lines from failing. If I had to keep temp at 180* would storage work well under those conditions? I assume sizing will also be a major factor as well.

Just so you understand. Storage doesn't keep you from having to burn less wood unless you are idleing alot. It does help you regulate WHEN you burn. You might have to fill the boiler 2 or 3 times at a full fireing to get the storage up to temp and then not fire for a day. It depends on how much storage you have and how many btu's you need and how big the boiler is.
In my case I have 2000gal. In the winter I fire 2 or three times a day depending on the temp. BUT I don't have to go out at a early time. I can do it when it is convenant to me or I can go all day if something comes up. If I don't fire up for a whole day then the next day I have to fire several times that day. In the shoulder seasons I can fire once a day or every other day or go maybe 3 or 4 days depending on the temp. In the summer I fire about every 7 days.
I heat my house, hot tub, water bed, water for 4 donkeys in the winter.
leaddog

 

[benjamin]

You've found the best place to start researching, right here. You could also look at some manufacturer's sites (Varmebronnen(sp?) comes to mind) that recommend buffer tanks or storage. My take is that the technology is more widely adopted in Europe, especially Germany and Scandanavia, and there's not that much awareness in North America.





I would take some issue with that. The original gasifiers done at the University of Maine all used storage systems. This was at a time when most European wood boilers made creosote as a byproduct. The Europeans jumped over us, enhancing their designs based on that original work while using storage to enhance performance.

My read on European storage systems is that they are nicely engineered and attractive but are cumbersome and expensive. There are enough American sources to eliminate the shipping costs of a tank from Europe or anywhere else overseas.

If I was researching, I would also check out Tarm since they offer both pressurized and unpressurized systems. Both have their merits, as is endlessly discussed in these forums.

Build it solar is a good DIY resource. As I mentioned before, if I was stick building a tank out of wood, I would not use anything other than pressure treated lumber and stainless fasteners. It is cheap insurance.

100% agreed.

I wasn't talking about who pioneered thermal storage, or whether I would actually buy the products. There a lot of very helpful boiler manufacturers websites that show a lot of the different theories of storage. Tom's in Maine has a great one also.

 

[EffectaBoilerUser (USA)]

I know a gentleman in the UP of Michigan that has a 500 gallon storage tank connected to his Seton boiler (he built his boiler using plans of the original Seton boiler).

I'm not sure of his system details but if you contact me through my website at (broken link removed) I can get you in contact with him.

What better way to plan for storage than to speak with someone who has already done it.

EBU

 

[Needshave]

JMann I sent you a PM of a company I found.

 

[JMann]

Great - this has been well worth posting! Getting a ton of good stuff here. Basically, I'm looking at making a few minor adjustments and I'll be all set to have a more consistent heat load. I'll review the new posts and get back with any (new) questions.

Thanks again.