I am new to this forum, what a great place for info. I most likely haven't searched deep enough in this forum so here's my situation. I have aquired, all for free so far, an energy tech boiler that needed fire brick and still needs the fan and a gauge, and also a 500 gal propane tank. The boiler is definetly going in. My home is only a 24 X 40 ranch with 75 feet of baseboard. The domestic hot water also runs from the oil boiler. I am sure the wood boiler is plenty big enough but am I totally wasting my time by putting in storage with the energy tech? Eventually when my wife increases my allowance or gives me a raise I would love a gasifier so my thought is to just do the storage now then it's there for the gasifirer. Any advise would be appreciated. I keep searching on here but can't seem to find where anyone is using storage with an old smoker.
Storage with a non gasifier- good or bad idea?
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I don't know why the storage wouldn't be an advantage for any boiler. It allows you to burn the furnace wide open, which usually translates to a more efficient, less smoky fire, and save the heat until you need it - advantages which have nothing to do with gasification.
You mentioned a fan and firebrick, so let me assume this is a fan forced combustion boiler. In that case, storage might do you some good. However, you have to carefully determine exactly what it will do. If the baseboard in your house only works well at high temperatures, say over 160 degrees, then you might not get as much benefit as if it can work down to lower temps. That has to do with whether you have exactly enough baseboard or too little or more than enough.
Storage depends greatly on how far you can reduce the temperature of it.
Here is an example.
Take 500 gallons of storage. That is roughly 4200 lbs of water, which you heat up to 180 degree. If you can only lower the temp of that water 20 degrees (which still heating), you have a BTU storage capacity of 20x4200 or about 85,000 BTU.
In a small home like yous, that might heat for about 4 hours in normal weather.
But, if you could lower the temp of the water to 140 degree and still get heat from it (unit heaters, oversized radiators, etc.), then you double that to 170,000 BTU or almost 8 hours of heat.
Another thought would be to start along the process by using a smaller tank but also installing a mixing valve into the house zone or zones. This would assure a more moderated water temp to the house, and keeps the boiler and storage hot. Then you can add additional storage when you get a more efficient boiler.
All in all, though, if you are going to use that boiler mostly in the coldest part of winter (and not too much on the shoulder seasons), then perhaps you should just go with a mixing valve and save your pennies. Storage helps more on the off seasons.
Storage depends greatly on how far you can reduce the temperature of it.
Here is an example.
Take 500 gallons of storage. That is roughly 4200 lbs of water, which you heat up to 180 degree. If you can only lower the temp of that water 20 degrees (which still heating), you have a BTU storage capacity of 20x4200 or about 85,000 BTU.
In a small home like yous, that might heat for about 4 hours in normal weather.
But, if you could lower the temp of the water to 140 degree and still get heat from it (unit heaters, oversized radiators, etc.), then you double that to 170,000 BTU or almost 8 hours of heat.
Another thought would be to start along the process by using a smaller tank but also installing a mixing valve into the house zone or zones. This would assure a more moderated water temp to the house, and keeps the boiler and storage hot. Then you can add additional storage when you get a more efficient boiler.
All in all, though, if you are going to use that boiler mostly in the coldest part of winter (and not too much on the shoulder seasons), then perhaps you should just go with a mixing valve and save your pennies. Storage helps more on the off seasons.
You can probably turn that old smoker into a more efficient old not-so-much smoker by adding some storage. My only concern, as stated above, is what the usable temperature differential of the sytem is. That, and if the old smoker has enough muscle to handle 500 gallons.
Good to see you are thinking ahead. If you are confident that you will someday install a gasser, you don't really have anything to lose. Chances are, even if the storage/boiler combo doesn't work well during some of the colder weather, it's bound to work pretty decent at some point when we start heading into the shoulder seasons. If the boiler can't keep up, just isolate the tanks until the weather warms up and use the storage then. When your new gasser arrives, your set!! Sounds like a plan.
cheers
Good to see you are thinking ahead. If you are confident that you will someday install a gasser, you don't really have anything to lose. Chances are, even if the storage/boiler combo doesn't work well during some of the colder weather, it's bound to work pretty decent at some point when we start heading into the shoulder seasons. If the boiler can't keep up, just isolate the tanks until the weather warms up and use the storage then. When your new gasser arrives, your set!! Sounds like a plan.
cheers
Agree with everything said so far. You would benifit in the shoulder seasons for sure and you will be able to see how your existing system operates at lower temp water. You could even make the modifications needed to use a lower temp and have that all ready for the new gasser when you get one. If you installed it in an outbuilding where you could easily clean the chimney, then you may even be able to burn in the summer for DHW. I would hesitate to do this if the boiler is installed in the home due to a higher risk of chimney fire when burning in warm weather.
Be sure to install a thermostatic mixing valve to keep incoming (cold) water at 160 or higher- that will minimize smoke and creosote. And, of course, a large pressure release valve if things gets too hot.
I have a 30 year old non-gasification boiler with storage. Best thing I ever did because I can burn it hot all the time. If the house needs heat it goes to the house. If it doesn't, the tank stores it. I doubt you'd ever regret putting it in. If you're worried about it, a couple of tees and three ball valves could allow you to isolate the tank and run without storage.
In a normal year I would have stopped burning a month ago. I'm still going. I fire it in the evening, around 7pm, with 4-6 large sticks depending on how hot the tank is to begin with and how cold it is going to get at night. I have heat all night, hot showers in the morning, and hot water all day. Repeat the next night. Life is good!
Most people pitch the need for the thermic valve but I don't use one. I don't have any smoke issues or creosote at all (natural draft boiler). My tank gets down to 90F and I fire it up. Circulator kicks on at 150F and starts pumping to the tank. Works great!
One other important point - have lots of expansion tank capacity. I need to get a larger one as I'm expansion limited (200F tank gives me 30-32 psi, and I want to be able to go to 220F).
Good luck!
In a normal year I would have stopped burning a month ago. I'm still going. I fire it in the evening, around 7pm, with 4-6 large sticks depending on how hot the tank is to begin with and how cold it is going to get at night. I have heat all night, hot showers in the morning, and hot water all day. Repeat the next night. Life is good!
Most people pitch the need for the thermic valve but I don't use one. I don't have any smoke issues or creosote at all (natural draft boiler). My tank gets down to 90F and I fire it up. Circulator kicks on at 150F and starts pumping to the tank. Works great!
One other important point - have lots of expansion tank capacity. I need to get a larger one as I'm expansion limited (200F tank gives me 30-32 psi, and I want to be able to go to 220F).
Good luck!
Cheap, you're golden.
You won't regret the system one bit, get it to work right and forget about the gasser. You will have to figure out how to burn it to get the best efficiency and ease of operation, but with a blower and firebrick you should be able to obtain similar efficiency with a little more fussing.
You didn't mention the age or heat loss, but a small ranch house is easy to weatherize. Then you can get away with smaller heat output from your baseboards from a lower storage temperature at the end of the cycle, and more usable heat out of each burn cycle, combined with lower heat loss equals fewer, longer fires, more comfort, and happy burning.
Post us a diagram or any questions of how to hook it up, I'd like to see how it works for you.
You won't regret the system one bit, get it to work right and forget about the gasser. You will have to figure out how to burn it to get the best efficiency and ease of operation, but with a blower and firebrick you should be able to obtain similar efficiency with a little more fussing.
You didn't mention the age or heat loss, but a small ranch house is easy to weatherize. Then you can get away with smaller heat output from your baseboards from a lower storage temperature at the end of the cycle, and more usable heat out of each burn cycle, combined with lower heat loss equals fewer, longer fires, more comfort, and happy burning.
Post us a diagram or any questions of how to hook it up, I'd like to see how it works for you.
I would think that after all of the previous posts, there should be no question in your mind... GO FOR IT! and have fun doing it.
cheers
cheers
OK well thanks everyone for all the input. I had pretty much convinced myself I am going to do it but I thought I may be missing something. One of my concerns was how long it may take to get that tank of water hot.Does anyone have some words of wisdom on building this tank? Any input on that would be appreciated. I most likley won't get started for another month or so. I have high hopes for this set up, I have a wood stove in the cellar now where this is going. I don't use alot of wood now and it relly takes the load off the oil burner. I am hoping for no oil use next year.
The tank is the simple part, read the stickies here until you understand them and then do it your way. The tough part is figuring out how to tie the hot water in to the storage, for year round wood heated hot water. Take a look at Nofossil's website, below his pic, among others.
Besides the DHW part, keep it simple, you're not heating a big building so you don't need anything complicated. You could probably get away with doing everything in 3/4" copper making the installation a lot cheaper and easier than if you went to 1" or black pipe, assuming of course that you know how to sweat pipes, or you're willing to learn before you do this, not after.
Besides the DHW part, keep it simple, you're not heating a big building so you don't need anything complicated. You could probably get away with doing everything in 3/4" copper making the installation a lot cheaper and easier than if you went to 1" or black pipe, assuming of course that you know how to sweat pipes, or you're willing to learn before you do this, not after.
OK so I have the whole thing worked out in my head and I just need to get going. Still have to wait to take out the woodstove, will be cold at night this week. Considering we have power outages more often here than most people deal with, where do I put the zone valve that opens on power loss to dump any building heatfrom the boiler? Is the best place in the storage tank( seems the easiest) or still it in the largest zone in the house?
What you talkin bout zone valves Willis?
How many loops do you have in that house? Many houses much bigger and leakier than yours get away with one loop of baseboard, ie all of them in series on one line, one pump, no valves in that line. Not ideal because it's a pain to bleed each one, but if you have a 3 speed pump, it might push the air through, or flush it with the supply water with the drain open in the right place.
It is possible, with big enough and short enough pipe, to thermosyphon from the boiler to storage and pump the hot water off the top for the baseboards. Probably easier just to use two pumps.
How many loops do you have in that house? Many houses much bigger and leakier than yours get away with one loop of baseboard, ie all of them in series on one line, one pump, no valves in that line. Not ideal because it's a pain to bleed each one, but if you have a 3 speed pump, it might push the air through, or flush it with the supply water with the drain open in the right place.
It is possible, with big enough and short enough pipe, to thermosyphon from the boiler to storage and pump the hot water off the top for the baseboards. Probably easier just to use two pumps.
Yes zone valves, the house is small enough it has only three zone . 2 for heat 1 for DHW. So when the power goes out and nothing works other than the fire burning slowly, something has to open to let that heat siphon off some where right? I guess I am wondering where the best place to put that normal closed zone valve ( that opens when power is lost) to allow for that hot water to move. My guess is in a heat zone to get some heat in the house. But I could be wrong, just ask my wife.
Oops, sorry, I forgot about the DHW.
I'm no expert at this, but as far as I know, in the event of power failure you either let the relief valve vent, have a back up power source or design a thermosyphon heat dump, which could be those propane tanks. If your storage is in the basement, and the basement is somewhat sealed/insulated you could design the tanks with a minimum of insulation, or a lid that could be opened to use them as a heat source in the winter and closed to use the storage for DHW in the summer.
I'm no expert at this, but as far as I know, in the event of power failure you either let the relief valve vent, have a back up power source or design a thermosyphon heat dump, which could be those propane tanks. If your storage is in the basement, and the basement is somewhat sealed/insulated you could design the tanks with a minimum of insulation, or a lid that could be opened to use them as a heat source in the winter and closed to use the storage for DHW in the summer.
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