Hello all....very interesting forum...wish I had more time to review all of this material...anyway I was recently told that the OWB would burn 60 face cord a year vs the TARM gasification boilers which might only use 20 cord (face) in upstate NY winters....and was wondering if anyone out there could prove this out one way or the other. Which is the best system to use and which manufacturer OWB or gasification...I here also that TARM has been around forever and also that they have a 20 year warranty...I see some have chosen the Orlan EKO, amy special reason for this....lots of questions looking for any help you all can give....these are big dollar purchases as you all know. Would rather be safe than sorry at these prices. Thanks
TARM vs Heatmore V Central Boiler ???
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I burned about 25 18" face from Dec 1 till I could get back into the woods this early spring. This was in a Greenwood, which is a 'gassifier', but a different design than the tarm and EKO. Supposedly CB has an outdoor gassifier out. . . check with Pete, I think he bought one. Though I too am in Upstate NY, I'd not make a wood usage comparison without a heatloss calc . . . or at least a description of your residence, type of heat, etc.
BTW, welcome aboard. Most people here will be honest with you about their experiences. Watchout for a couple of salesmen :sick:
BTW, welcome aboard. Most people here will be honest with you about their experiences. Watchout for a couple of salesmen :sick:
Total system efficiency depends on too many variables for blanket statements to be made. However, I would personally be confident that a properly installed Tarm or similar system would burn 1/2 or less the wood of a standard OWB.
The EKO is a similar design to the Tarm - a downdraft design powered by a fan which blows the smoke down through the ember bed....which burns it and releases most of the heat energy from these gases. Since up to 50% of the heat in firewood is from the gases....this is much of the reason for the increased efficiency.
Keep in mind that the firebox size in a OWB is 4x to 10x the size of that of most indoor wood units. A larger firebox burns more wood - or, the wood has to be turned down so low that the smoke does not burn.
The EKO is a similar design to the Tarm - a downdraft design powered by a fan which blows the smoke down through the ember bed....which burns it and releases most of the heat energy from these gases. Since up to 50% of the heat in firewood is from the gases....this is much of the reason for the increased efficiency.
Keep in mind that the firebox size in a OWB is 4x to 10x the size of that of most indoor wood units. A larger firebox burns more wood - or, the wood has to be turned down so low that the smoke does not burn.
I also live in Upstate NY and just ordered a Tarm Solo 40. THe installer says he has other customers that have generally gone through 14-16 face cords for a heating season on a reletively newer type homes in the 2800-3500 sq. ft range. I am planning on having at least 20 on hand this year just in case. I probably will believe teh 14-16 face cord numbers after I see an actual years usage. Good luck
Twenty face cords is just shy of 7 full cords. I think that's a reasonable estimate, but I'd be more comfortable starting out with around 10. Anything left over at the end of the season is just more dry wood for the next year. I think most people burn more the first year as they learn how to operate the boiler to its potential. So it doesn't hurt to have more wood than you think you'll need--because you might.
Hey you all ..THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE REPLIES...It appears that the TARM is a very good unit and would burn quite a bit less wood, which makes it a great investment....the only remaining issue for me is what does anyone think of the heat storage (water tank) that they suggest should be installed with this unit.....we are looking at the Solo 40 at this point and wonder if we should either wait to install until we can do both the water storage at the same time or just go ahead and add the water storage afterward.....I was thinking that, considering the expense of the water storage tank (somewhere around 6K) what if the heat storage got lost to some extent, because of the transfer back and forth maybe making the expense not as great as it sounds...Anyone have a way around this issue??. All thoughts appreciated..and Thanks to you all for your help!
There are a lot of threads here that discuss storage options. Storage is not necessary, but it does allow more efficient and convenient operation. Almost everyone 'rolls their own' since you can build storage using locally scrounged tanks for much less than $6k. A pair of 500 gallon propane tanks is a common solution. Not sure I understand you last concern. Water shoul only circulate between the boiler and storage when you're heating the storage with the boiler. If the boiler is in a remote location, the buried lines need to be well insulated. The storage itself needs to be very well insulated to reduce standby heat loss. Storage is ideally very near or inside the house.
I never used my Tarm 40 without storage, so I am a bit biased. It's kind of like being able to run your Lamborghini full out all the time on the autobahn vs throttling it back on a straight 4 lane with a 65 mph speed limit, and only punching it when you think no one is around.
For storage, if you have space, consider a used LP tank and go pressurized. Cost is much less than the $6k you mentioned, and I found a pressurized storage system to be effortless once set up.
For storage, if you have space, consider a used LP tank and go pressurized. Cost is much less than the $6k you mentioned, and I found a pressurized storage system to be effortless once set up.
Well, here is what we are looking at. We have been on the fence with doing solar for a few years now but still is expensive even for DHW purposes. We decided on the Tarm Solo 40 and have also decided on two 200 gal pressurized Buderus solar tanks for storage. When the system is installed the DHW will be handled through oil burner and storage will be in the two tanks. We anticipate putting up solar DHW panels in the near future and will be a bit ahead of the game with solar and already have the solar tanks on hand and ready to go which will lessen the cost of switching to solar and allow us to be solar DHW during non winter time months. My initial concern was that the two tanks would not be enough storage for the boiler but from what I understand is that this technology with gassification comes from the longtime usage in Europe. Now they generally recommend storage in Europe installs but at a much smaller degree and that Europeans have found that storage is recommended but not at the scale that we are looking at here even under the recommendation from Tarm itself. Not sure of what we are definintely going to do. The installer says he will install the recommended Tarm storage tank if we want and will actually be slightly cheaper to do. Not sure if this helps or not but I am still learning everyday.
The size of the tank depends on the heat load and minimum usable temperature. Houses here tend to be a lot bigger than houses in Europe, with correspondingly higher heat loads. Radiant (common in Europe) allows smaller tanks because you can use the water down to a lower temperature.
beantaxi said:
I plan on putting in a Tarm early/late? fall. We start getting good frosts early. Too damn cold too soon up here. With that in mind, we'll put off putting in the storage until late winter/early spring. From what I understand the Tarm should burn pretty efficient during the winter months. That'll give us time to figure out the storage thing. Any thoughts.....?
Good thinking flyingcow. I'm pretty much doing the same thing. My Tarm will be coming in the next few days. I'll finish piping and wiring it. I'm gonna use it in conjunction with my wood stove that I have upstairs.
Storage seems too complex and still in the trial and error stage. Too many options. I'm hoping that Tarm comes out with their version of pressurized storage soon. Everything I heard points to it.
Storage seems too complex and still in the trial and error stage. Too many options. I'm hoping that Tarm comes out with their version of pressurized storage soon. Everything I heard points to it.
If you think of storage as 1) another zone, then it becomes quite simple. And, if you think of storage 2) as another boiler plumbed as a dual system, with the "storage boiler" being idle, then again the system becomes quite simple. The complexities mostly derive from people like me who like to experiment and get a bit exotic, just because we like doing that kind of stuff. It doesn't have to be complex, and it is not trial and error.
chuck172 said:
The Tarm water storage seems a bit pricey, but I got some input from someone that has a 40 with storage. In the summer they fire it up once every 3 days. Family of 4 with a house wife thats a cleaning fanatic. She uses a lot of hot water. Huge house.So i think the storage will work very well, just depends how much DIY. I can see if you've got the ambition and skills that someone could set up something for less dollars. And more important, should be an enjoyable hobby.
These type of sites are going to do more our our energy independence, than any big Gov' subsidies have, trying to mass produce solutions! IMO sprinkle a little start up money here and there, and free up(from gov regs) you thinkers and doo'ers. Once you have proven the technology, private industry will help you do the rest. I duuno, just a thought. Gettin' off topic, excuse me
Getting tired of our Gov(state and fed) bright ideas, that I'm thinking about heading to Boston in search of a boat load of Tea. Anyone care to join me? :coolgrin:
I took this tread as the last straw - a challenge to finally explain clearly what's involved in plumbing and controlling storage rather than getting grumpy every time the issue comes up. Thanks for the push. My response became a sticky which apparently can't be replied to. Let me know if it helps clarify what's involved in setting up storage.
Hey Right on flyingcow....my son (mid twenties) has been wondering if anyone out there might think a tea party would be the only way to fix the political/govt mishaps that have us in a pickle..think 'W" or any of his kin are having the same issues you all here and we are?? I doubt it....anyway more great info from you all ..Thanks!! Wish plumbing was my trade....I once put hot to cold and vice versa ...my wife says stay away with it .....numbers is my game....unfortunately my trade helps not in this matter.....but any of you trades peoples out there will maybe get the respect you all deserve for saving the rest of us...Doctors of plumbing are a god send and I hope you get from everyone else the respect that I have for you all...beyond all that I still would love to hear any details on setting up the water storage for the Tarm/etc...at a price we ALL COULD LIVE WITH so jump right in nofossil or anyone else....and thank you all for your time....
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