Thelin Gnome stove fuse blowing - house breaking tripping disaster?

[Don2222]

Hello

Still working on the Thelin Gnome!

Looks like the Ignitor died and blew the mini glass stove fuse. The fuse holder on the bottom of the stove is not secured on the inside with a LOCKWSHER! When the user replaced the fuse and pushed the cap in and turned the cap, the whole fuse holder turned and until the solder tab on the side wedged into the round metal fan flange causing the AC in to short against the stove body and blew the house breaker! What a calamity!

Also the Ignitor is a pain to get out!

Looks like I may have to bring my solder gun and solder back with some lock washers when I go fix it! LOL

My question is:
The Red fuse holder does not have a side solder tab and the wire is not connected to the top solder tab. Is the Red fuse holder used on the Gnome? If so for what?

Click on pic to enlarge:

See pics below.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Looks like there is a separate fuse to protect the power transformer and rectifier for the ac to dc conversion circuit but I ain't an EE or Electronics wizard. Maybe that fuse holder was for that fuse yes, no?

 

[Don2222]

Looks like there is a separate fuse to protect the power transformer and rectifier for the ac to dc conversion circuit but I ain't an EE or Electronics wizard. Maybe that fuse holder was for that fuse yes, no?

Looks like it, I just do not know which the Red Fuse holder in the diagram is unless I go back the my customer's house. LOL
I though someone might know?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well go armed for bear get a replacement fuse holder, some wire and straighten out the damn wiring mess you have a BSEE, I'm just a lowly pellet stove cleaner and wouldn't know a rectifier from a transformer or igniter if it bit me.

 

[Don2222]

Well go armed for bear get a replacement fuse holder, some wire and straighten out the damn wiring mess you have a BSEE, I'm just a lowly pellet stove cleaner and wouldn't know a rectifier from a transformer or igniter if it bit me.

Yes, that is my plan but you are good to Smokey.

 

[dhall28]

Looks like the Ignitor died and blew the mini glass stove fuse.

the red fuse holder is for the igniter. If the igniter took out the fuse when it died it should have taken out the fuse in the red holder. everything on the stove is dc and uses very little power so they has a 12v solenoid controlled by control board that turns the solenoid on and off to turn on and off the igniter. becuase of that the igniter which takes quite a bit of power, much more than everything else combined gets its own fuse.

 

[Don2222]

the red fuse holder is for the igniter. If the igniter took out the fuse when it died it should have taken out the fuse in the red holder. everything on the stove is dc and uses very little power so they has a 12v solenoid controlled by control board that turns the solenoid on and off to turn on and off the igniter. becuase of that the igniter which takes quite a bit of power, much more than everything else combined gets its own fuse.

Thanks, the ignitor is still AC so that is why there is a 12vdc relay to turn the ignitor on. That makes sense. That is why the the wire came off that fuse holder. What a mess!

 

[dhall28]

also looking at the wiring diagram if it is accurate it could only be one of those fuse holders that grounded out. one goes off the hot and the other goes off the neutral. if the neutral touched ground is shouldn't have done anything....which one idk

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Take another look at how that stove is fused the terminal near the chassis on the igniter fuse holder is on the opposite side of the power line from the same tab from the power supplies fuse holder. Lots of room for poof if things are loose.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

What a stove, I checked to see if a standard ignitor would fit. It does fit. However the reason half of the OEM ignitor is encased in metal is because the ignitor is transverse mounted under the burn box and the wires exit the bottom right corner of the fire chamber! Yes half of the wires are in the hot ashes in the bottom of the fire chamber!

 

[dhall28]

yea we carried thelins, unfortunately, for one year, i told the owners my opinion is we should never carry them again. they are an interesting stove and fantastic for those people who like to tinker with their stoves, lots of adjustments on a thelin, but i don't think they are as reliable or economical as other stoves and calling the company even when your a dealer is normally not very helpful and very time consuming in my experience.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Yes, but the good news is the stove can be fixed.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Well, back to the Thelin Gnome pellet stove. I installed an Outside Air Kit (OAK). This will prevent pellet dropping out the air intake tube from the fire box.

I replaced the igniter. Due to the igniter wires going down to the lower back right corner of the fire box, no generic igniter could be used. Only the Thelin Gnome Igniter with the heavy metal shielding on the wires down to the bottom of the fire box where it goes thru the hole. Clear RTV must also be used around the shielded wires to seal the fire box. Then the wires plug into the relay in the bottom of the stove. Two bolts must be removed to access this.

Now, I can clearly see the issue here. In the picture below the bottom panel mount fuse holder is the original RED igniter fuse holder. Thelin support states it takes a 5 amp fuse. The wire diagram shows 6 amps but that may be for the Parlour stove.
The black fuse holder is the Board panel mount fuse holder and should be 1 amp.

At the local hardware/lighting store, I purchased a new panel mount fuse holder and 5 amp fuses.

Here is the issue
As you can see in the picture, the washer on the original fuse holder is hard and thin and does not lock in the body of the fuse holder. Replacing the fuse can easily turn the body of the fuse holder and make the side solder tab hit the large intake fan flange and cause the short. In fact the side tab was completely blown off when the short occurred!

The new panel mount fuse holder shows the side solder tab and comes with a softer rubber washer and plastic nut that may hold the fuse holder better. However my question is:
Should I fine a LOCK washer to really secure this fuse holder to the stove so it will keep from turning?
Should I also re-use the metal nut or use the new plastic nut?

What is the best combination here to prevent this DISASTER from happening again?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You do not want either of those two fuse holders to turn unless you correct the botched up AC wiring it is a disaster waiting to happen. Anyone who believes that any existing house wiring is correct needs their heads examined.

 

[Don2222]

correct the botched up AC wiring it is a disaster waiting to happen

Not sure what you mean here?

 

[Stovensen]

What is the best combination here to prevent this DISASTER from happening again?

It's difficult to tell from your photos, Don, but to me they both appear to be circular shaped where the thread passes through the metal plate on the stove. Are you sure that this arrangement is the original from the factory? If so, the factory should be made aware of it, as it can lead to very dangerous situations. Not just a blown fuse, but lethal voltage on the stove!! Take care.

A secure way to prevent the fuse holder from turning would be to use the type shown on the picture here and then to punch a special hole where opposing secants are left to match those on the holder ( shown on drawing ). This special shaped hole can also be made with a small sharp edged file.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Not sure what you mean here?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...eaking-tripping-disaster.108166/#post-1417851

You do not want that fuse holder to turn the contacts next to the stove frame can cause a short that the fuses can not see or protect for only the house wiring . The house wiring at the outlet can allow improper ground/neutral connections at the outlet to allow it..

 

[Don2222]

It's difficult to tell from your photos, Don, but to me they both appear to be circular shaped where the thread passes through the metal plate on the stove. Are you sure that this arrangement is the original from the factory? If so, the factory should be made aware of it, as it can lead to very dangerous situations. Not just a blown fuse, but lethal voltage on the stove!! Take care.

A secure way to prevent the fuse holder from turning would be to use the type shown on the picture here and then to punch a special hole where opposing secants are left to match those on the holder ( shown on drawing ). This special shaped hole can also be made with a small sharp edged file.

Yes, it is the original factory design! However the holes are already there. I will be looking for some good lock washers today.

 

[Don2222]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...eaking-tripping-disaster.108166/#post-1417851

You do not want that fuse holder to turn the contacts next to the stove frame can cause a short that the fuses can not see or protect for only the house wiring . The house wiring at the outlet can allow improper ground/neutral connections at the outlet to allow it..

It is a newer house, the wiring and breakers are fine. I will be looking for some good lock washers today!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

It is a newer house, the wiring and breakers are fine. I will be looking for some good lock washers today!

Don,

I don't give a damn about it being a newer or older house, even if the outlet passed all fault tests (Did you actually test it?) that stove wiring leaves a lot to be desired. This is aside of running wires where hot ash etc. can get to them.

It is sort of like the thirty amp wonder fuse in a house that the home owner finally was convinced to rewire his "new to them" house. You could have removed the fuse and the circuit was still alive as he found out.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Well here is the good fix! When I purchased these panel mount fuse holders 30 years ago they always came with 1/2" lock washers just like this!
8 PCs 1/2" Lock Washers Int. Tooth 20441 zinc / cinc

289 SOUTH BROADWAY​

SALEM, N.H. 03079 (603)894-1900​

​

3480 00059 18008 04/20/13 06:12 PM​

CASHIER SELF CHECK OUT - SCOT59​

​

030699204410 WASHER <A> 1.18​

WASHER LOCK INT TOOTH ZINC 1/2"​

​

SUBTOTAL 1.18​

SALES TAX 0.00​

TOTAL $1.18​

XXXXXXXXXXXX1350 DEBIT 1.18​

AUTH CODE 431674​

​

​

3480 59 18008 04/20/2013 2410​

​

RETURN POLICY DEFINITIONS​

POLICY ID DAYS POLICY EXPIRES ON​

A 1 90 07/19/2013​

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[Don2222]

yea we carried Thelin's, unfortunately, for one year, i told the owners my opinion is we should never carry them again. they are an interesting stove and fantastic for those people who like to tinker with their stoves, lots of adjustments on a thelin, but i don't think they are as reliable or economical as other stoves and calling the company even when your a dealer is normally not very helpful and very time consuming in my experience.

I talked to their support guy. He seems very knowledgeable and helpful. The stove is made for that special look and to work off a deep cycle marine battery! To achieve that look and the battery backup, all parts are DC and OEM made to fit! So, for the good looks and DC backup it is higher maintenance.

 

[dhall28]

I talked to their support guy. He seems very knowledgeable and helpful. The stove is made for that special look and to work off a deep cycle marine battery! To achieve that look and the battery backup, all parts are DC and OEM made to fit! So, for the good looks and DC backup it is higher maintenance.

yes its the same as the mt vernon ae, all dc stove, very specialized and uses unique motors, but the temperature sensing devices are not as easily tested when they could have just used an easily tested thermocouple and the experience dealing with the company as a dealer has been in my experience very frustrating. how long did it take to get a tech? took me 20 min even as a dealer and a tech was avaiable, who ever answered the phone wanted me to talk to them and then they'd talk to the tech and then back to me and this went on for a while, it was dumb and they weren't too technical so a lot got messed up by the person. if you want battery back up go with a quadrafire mount vernon, way better stove, support and company IMO, but it doesn't have the look of the thelin.

 

[Don2222]

yes its the same as the mt vernon ae, all dc stove, very specialized and uses unique motors, but the temperature sensing devices are not as easily tested when they could have just used an easily tested thermocouple and the experience dealing with the company as a dealer has been in my experience very frustrating. how long did it take to get a tech? took me 20 min even as a dealer and a tech was avaiable, who ever answered the phone wanted me to talk to them and then they'd talk to the tech and then back to me and this went on for a while, it was dumb and they weren't too technical so a lot got messed up by the person. if you want battery back up go with a quadrafire mount vernon, way better stove, support and company IMO, but it doesn't have the look of the thelin.

It is not so busy now but I can see that when it is real busy it is hard to get thru to the good service tech. Oh well, I do have some Thelin stoves to fix and noone else in the area can fix them so why not?

 

[smwilliamson]

Thelin, the only pellet stove I have ever had lay down on it's side to work on. Note: You have to empty the hopper first!