Troubleshooting help with Englander 25-pdvc

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

Hello,

To begin, I have been in touch with Englander’s tech/service team via email and thus far they seem stumped. The short version is: our Englander is throwing lukewarm air in spite of implementing fixes (several of which I found here in this forum).

Longer version:
My bf and I purchased a used Englander 25-PDVC from a friend two weeks ago. To our knowledge, any maintenance he did in his 8-odd years of owning it was fairly minimal, limited to just vacuuming. He told us that the last time he used it, roughly 2 years ago go, it worked fine. The first day we installed it, the very dirty stove ran splendidly, and we were sweltering. Awesome, right?

Pleased, BF and I decided to go ahead and clean it up. And that’s when trouble seemed to start. We noticed what we later would learn was called a lazy fire (heavy soot, thick, cakey ash) and a very lackluster heat output. The lazy fire issue seems to have been resolved as of this weekend after replacing door gaskets, however.

Here’s the list of what we did over the following days:
* Vacuumed and cleaned the ash out of the fire box, vacuumed the fire pot, etc
* Vacuumed the heat exchange space behind the impingement plate
* Cresote removal - scraped layers of that off the impingement plate and the fire box walls
* Air intake - confirmed that air is indeed being sucked in from the outside

* Combustion blower replacement - upgraded with the current version (brainfarting on the name).
* Convection fan - cleaned (this had several layers of pet hair and dirt) and reinstalled.
* Fire pot gasket - replaced
* Fire pot burn plate - plugged up holes, replacement will be ordered
* Door glass gasket - replaced
* Door gasket - replaced
* Control panel - factory reset and also confirmed that all the wires are seated correctly
* Augurs - the timing seems to be correct. We have NOT pulled this out yet to inspect, however, because most past threads on this topic did not suggest this avenue.

Replacing the gaskets seem to have improved the lazy fire, but we are still getting lackluster heat compared with that first day.
Thoughts??

 

[Ssyko]

Well all the creosote you scraped off the impingement plate is also in the heat exchanger passages, combustion blower chamber. I would suggest a really hot “Supervised”burn with some of the creosote removal pellets that are out there mixing in with the wood pellets. This could take a while to get the stove cleaned out.

 

[ericofmaine]

I'd also check your venting. Is it clean? Somewhere I think you still have an air leak as the flame should be like a blow torch. When you replaced the combustion motor, did you replace the gasket as well?

Eric

 

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

I'd also check your venting. Is it clean? Somewhere I think you still have an air leak as the flame should be like a blow torch. When you replaced the combustion motor, did you replace the gasket as well?

Eric

Yes, the replacement combustion motor came with a gasket.

Looking at other people’s photos and videos, our flame seems a little subdued, but not overly so. Eg other people’s ”Level 5” fire is our 7. Or something, heh. I don’t know where to begin with remedying that, though.

 

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

Well all the creosote you scraped off the impingement plate is also in the heat exchanger passages, combustion blower chamber. I would suggest a really hot “Supervised”burn with some of the creosote removal pellets that are out there mixing in with the wood pellets. This could take a while to get the stove cleaned out.

Hm, there’s an idea. I’ll see if the local shop has any.

When I cleaned out the space behind the plate, I noticed a hole that, I assume, leads to the stove’s vents in the front, but the vacuum hose wasn’t flexible or small enough to get in there. It’s strange, though, that it burned so well the first day, and terribly after cleaning. I’ve been speculating that we knocked something loose that’s impeding the hot air.

Or the exchanger just isn’t getting hot enough?

 

[Ssyko]

Behind the impingement plate is the heat exchanger. If that is not open and clean the stove will choke for air. That hole is what leads to the combustion blower. You can’t access the other side of the exchange it is sealed so exhaust can’t get into it. Leaf blower trick works the best on the esw stoves

 

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

Behind the impingement plate is the heat exchanger. If that is not open and clean the stove will choke for air. That hole is what leads to the combustion blower. You can’t access the other side of the exchange it is sealed so exhaust can’t get into it. Leaf blower trick works the best on the esw stoves
View attachment 272332

I will check out the leaf blower method - it’s the only cleaning technique we haven’t done yet.

 

[gfreek]

Make sure the leaf blower is correctly connected so as to "pull" air from the exhaust pipe ...other wise bad things happen...

 

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

Make sure the leaf blower is correctly connected so as to "pull" air from the exhaust pipe ...other wise bad things happen...

I found a few references to this mysterious “bad thing” but it appears the original post was deleted? Alas! I will be sure we use the suction side, otherwise BF will too have to deal with an unhappy partner.

BF was wondering if we should disconnect the combustion blower before trying the leaf-blowing/sucking trick? We know we should either leave the door ajar or disconnect the vacuum tube.

 

[Ssyko]

Yes leave the door open. If its easy to get to take the vac hose off too.... just cause. when you fire up the leaf blower. Take a rubber mallet and tap the back wall of the fire box take out the impingement plate

 

[gfreek]

I found a few references to this mysterious “bad thing” but it appears the original post was deleted? Alas! I will be sure we use the suction side, otherwise BF will too have to deal with an unhappy partner.

Here ya go...
HELP Soot covering interior of house

 

[Towmotormatt]

Here ya go...
HELP Soot covering interior of house

BF here... that’s quite tragic and hilarious. Definitely will be careful about using the blower on this unit.
So I’m a engineer and I’ve been running some calculations. It’s possible that this unit is working as it should, just not putting out as much heat as we need in the yurt. If someone can check my math for me, that would be appreciated.

blower output averaging 230 degrees out the front blower vents fills a 30 gallon bag in about 3 seconds, which comes out to 80cfm? (Convection Blower is supposedly 250cfm though) room ambient temp is now around 70 degrees.
So 230deg-70deg is a temp rise of 160 deg F

160 deg x 1.08 BTU factor x 80CFM = 13,824 BTUs.

a 40lb bag of pellets at presumably 8000 btu/lb is equivalent to 320,000 btus.

It took us around 17 hours to go through a bag of pellets, which averages to 18,823 BYU/hr

This means we’re running at 73% efficiency which isn’t that bad considering the variables involved (fuel could be higher btu, air flow could be higher etc).
Any thoughts on blower CFM or the above calculations?
thanks

 

[Ssyko]

Unfortunately blower CFM in most stoves are rated “before they are installed” and you can imagine the air paths through the stove and heat exchanger slow things down significantly. So i would have to agree with your calculations. You could install a higher horsepower motor that would be less likely to fall on its face and move a little more heat. We all here try to advise to go larder stove than what is thought to be needed.

 

[Towmotormatt]

Unfortunately blower CFM in most stoves are rated “before they are installed” and you can imagine the air paths through the stove and heat exchanger slow things down significantly. So i would have to agree with your calculations. You could install a higher horsepower motor that would be less likely to fall on its face and move a little more heat.

yeah higher CFM will just mean there is more air movement at a lower temperature but the BTU output would be about the same. So I’m not too concerned about the blower airflow. Agree that the design restrictions through the stove is most likely the cause for such a drop in CFM but 250 to 80 seems a bit much.

We all here try to advise to go larder stove than what is thought to be needed.

That may be the case for us. Or we may switch back to a wood stove. Although I like how the pellets will feed themselves through the night. We will try to clean the stove out with a leaf blower and check again.

 

[Ssyko]

You actually have the smaller stove englander makes. That stove only has a smaller blower @140cfm. The big brother to yours is the 25pdv. That is the stove that has a 250 cfm blower

 

[Towmotormatt]

Ahh what would the BTU output go up to on my unit, at best?

I also read that some other users have had the temperature of the door frame go up to 900 degrees above the glass. I don’t think I’ve seen anything near that. What should that door frame temperature be at when on high?

we often run it at 9-9 for heat and air and that should do the trick for a 700 sqft yurt but it seems to struggle. GF often reminds me that it worked terrific the first day, but we’ve changed a lot of variables since then. The factory settings were way off (set to 9 AOT for example) and we’ve reset that to 4-6-1. It is also on D mode and I may change that to C.

getting ~80 CFM out of a 140cfm blower makes a little more sense now.

 

[Ssyko]

Well there are 2 modifications that have helped a lot of stoves run, burn hotter and more efficient. If you pull the burn pot plate. down near the bottom, on each side are 2 holes that when capped off (hillman electrical plugs) send more air throught the plate under the pellets instead of above them. The other is to plug some holes and drill out others. Took a few plates till i got the holes right but it works. Many pdv & pdvc users have done the conversations. A search here will show quite a few threads.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Personally speaking, I think a good suck job with a leaf blower (suck side) will cure your issues and when sucking, remove the vac hose from the firebox, the membrane it it is thin and can be ruptured with excessive vacuum. While one of you suck on the exhaust vent, the other needs to be lightly pounding on the back wall of the stove with a rubber or soft face hammer. I believe that will address most of your issue. Never like ESW units (I had one a long time ago and sold it) because of the limited ash handling capacity and the rather crude fuel feed arrangement. An air gap double feed auger system with gravity drop is much better. My present unit is a single auger air gap feed arrangement so one les set of components to wear out and eventually, being mechanical, they do wear out and require replacement or rebuilding if you have the expertise and the tools.

 

[Towmotormatt]

Well there are 2 modifications.....to plug some holes and drill out others.

We did already plug those large half moon holes with steel wool as a test. I also went further to create a gasket around the wear plate with more steel wool as I could see an air gap on the sides from the absence of ash. While it gave slight improvement, it was still not day and night.
I also noticed today that the BTU input rating on my unit is actually 38k btu’s so I should be getting a whole lot more heat out of the unit.

Personally speaking, I think a good suck job with a leaf blower (suck side) will cure your issues and when sucking, remove the vac hose from the firebox, the membrane it it is thin and can be ruptured with excessive vacuum. While one of you suck on the exhaust vent, the other needs to be lightly pounding on the back wall of the stove with a rubber or soft face hammer. I believe that will address most of your issue. ....

Thanks. I think this is going to be our next step. We will probably attempt this tomorrow.

 

[BackDoc]

I have a 25PDV that was made in 2004. I have had and fixed (with Ssykos help) most every problem you can have and the burn pot mod is the single most important thing you can do to see an improvement in heat and efficiency.

 

[SidecarFlip]

It's too bad the spent fuel (ash) capacity is so limited. If ESW modded the design with a lower ash drawer, the unit would be an ideal stove,

 

[Ben in Maryland]

We did already plug those large half moon holes with steel wool as a test. I also went further to create a gasket around the wear plate with more steel wool as I could see an air gap on the sides from the absence of ash. While it gave slight improvement, it was still not day and night.
I also noticed today that the BTU input rating on my unit is actually 38k btu’s so I should be getting a whole lot more heat out of the unit.



Thanks. I think this is going to be our next step. We will probably attempt this tomorrow.

Did you guys ever improve the heat output of your stove? Been having similar issues with mine lately.

 

[StumpedbyEnglander25pdvc]

Did you guys ever improve the heat output of your stove? Been having similar issues with mine lately.

Unfortunately between work, various projects, and uncooperative weather, we’ve not been able to do a deep cleaning. I’m hoping to carve out some time on Wednesday (the warmest day this week). We’ll see, though.

I plan on reporting back after we tackle this next step. Stay tuned!

 

[Ben in Maryland]

Unfortunately between work, various projects, and uncooperative weather, we’ve not been able to do a deep cleaning. I’m hoping to carve out some time on Wednesday (the warmest day this week). We’ll see, though.

I plan on reporting back after we tackle this next step. Stay tuned!

Will do, thank you!