Unions

[begreen]

Looks like a new GM electric truck may be one of the items on the negotiation table with the UAW.
"US automotive giant General Motors has offered the chance to build an electric pickup (or, ute) at its Detroit plant as part of a $US7 billion ($A10.2 billion) deal including advanced battery systems to quell striking US auto workers."

GM woos striking workers with plans for all-electric pick-up

General Motors offers electric ute as part of negotiations with UAW for Detroit plant in $US7bn deal including advanced battery systems.

thedriven.io

 

[Ashful]

Looks like a new GM electric truck may be one of the items on the negotiation table with the UAW.
"US automotive giant General Motors has offered the chance to build an electric pickup (or, ute) at its Detroit plant as part of a $US7 billion ($A10.2 billion) deal including advanced battery systems to quell striking US auto workers."

GM woos striking workers with plans for all-electric pick-up

General Motors offers electric ute as part of negotiations with UAW for Detroit plant in $US7bn deal including advanced battery systems.

thedriven.io

Striking is nothing but legalized extortion and collusion, it should be a crime, the consumer is always the loser in this racket.

 

[begreen]

That is a tangent for the Inglenook. The consumer is also the laborer. But you're right. Let's get rid of the 40 hr work week, safer working conditions, child labor protections, good wages etc. and go back to the good old days.

PS: By that same note the exorbitant salaries for their execs could be called extortion too. No one seems to grouse about that.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

$62 an hour and on strike. Geez no wonder pickups are so expensive!

 

[begreen]

The top production wage at GM is $33 an hour, while starting temp workers are paid as little as $15 an hour. I read the strike is mostly about temp workers. Some have been kept on for 5yrs without benefits. FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.

FYI, the CEO of GM makes almost $11,000 an hour if she puts in a 2000 hr. year or a measly $7290 per hour if she puts in a grueling 3000 hr year. That's still 220 times the wage for the top paid production worker.

What striking autoworkers want from General Motors

Automaker has raked in $27.5 billion in profits since 2015, when it last negotiated a labor contract with the UAW

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Seasoned Oak]

So whats to keep GM from moving south and saving at least $12 an hour per employee. Or out of the country and saving much more. CEO pay is irrelevant in that regard. Some unions have a tendency to price themselves out of work. Like the UAW did a few yrs back.

 

[begreen]

With wages so stagnant while the real costs of living keep going up, somethings got to give.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The only thing going up around here is property taxes due to Govt Unions and Teacher unions. Inflation has been almost nonexistant for quite a few years otherwise. Unless you count healthcare but thats a whole nother thread.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-workers-see-fastest-wage-increase-in-a-decade/2018/10/31/3c2e7894-dc85-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html?noredirect=on

 

[peakbagger]

If not for the odd situation that no one could have predicted 5 years ago of very low oil prices and repealed more stringent emission regulations, the US car market would be looking a lot different than it is today. Ford spent a lot of money switching to aluminum and Ecoboost engines to prep for the new standards while GM didn't. GM is raking it in as they are just making the same truck with some sheet metal tweaks and high value accessories. Both Ford and GM have not made money on passenger cars for years and the business model was sell the cars at loss to offset the poor fuel mileage of the trucks to cut down on CAFE standards penalties. If there is interest in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, transportation has to do its part and that means downsizing the fleet away from single passenger trucks used to commute to work. Electrics will fill part of the niche but not all. Unlike other pollutants there is no current economic way to scrub CO2 from a mobile source so CO2 reduction is increase vehicle efficiency and the low hanging fruit for efficiency is reduce vehicle weight. Body on frame is great for truck production as its cheap to retool sheet metal but regular cars long ago switched to unibodies as they are far lighter and thus potentially more efficient. The folks in economies with high gas prices long ago figured out how to do this far cheaper than the US and that market is gone and not coming back.

 

[CaptSpiff]

The top production wage at GM is $33 an hour, while starting temp workers are paid as little as $15 an hour. I read the strike is mostly about temp workers. Some have been kept on for 5yrs without benefits. FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.[/URL]

The NY Times article mentioned the UAW made big concessions following GM's "near bankruptcy-govt bailout", creating a two tier system. Existing workers got to keep their wage & benefits, but new hires start at $17 on a step progression to $31/hr after 8 years. Temp worker class was also allowed and start at $2/hr less.
Assuming an avg work year of 2080 hours, not really the "living LARGE" wages of times past. Non-unionized workers at companies in southern states make about $2/hr less on avg.
The above wage numbers do not include some of the "profit sharing" in recent contracts. Per NY Times article: "Under the contract that just ended, workers have gotten a share of G.M.’s profits averaging $11,000 a year over the last three years. "

 

[Ashful]

That is a tangent for the Inglenook. The consumer is also the laborer. But you're right. Let's get rid of the 40 hr work week, safer working conditions, child labor protections, good wages etc. and go back to the good old days.

It’s been a long time since any of those arguments were really relevant to our national situation, no need to jump back in time four generations to justify a modern crime.

Collective bargaining is simple extortion, and recognition of the fact that what you do is not worth what you’re attempting to charge for it.

 

[CaptSpiff]

FWIW, I was making $33/hr in 1984.

You were doing very well back then!

Avg starting salary for Engineers in 1980 was about $20K (or about $10/hr).
By 1985 starting salary for Engineers had jumped to $28K (or about $13.50/hr).

I remember those numbers were in line with auto workers back then.
Today, starting salary for Engineers is about $65K.
Looks like the factory workers have not kept up.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that was a good time period. I shifted careers a few times after that and dropped down to $25/hr for awhile. I am amazed that engineers were starting out that low back in '85. What field was this, mech eng, chemical eng, ? An entry-level software engineer can be $75-110K these days.

 

[bholler]

So whats to keep GM from moving south and saving at least $12 an hour per employee. Or out of the country and saving much more. CEO pay is irrelevant in that regard. Some unions have a tendency to price themselves out of work. Like the UAW did a few yrs back.

$33 an hour is far from pricing themselves out of work. Granted that is only their pay when you factor in all the costs of employing that person you get the $62 an hour you mentioned. And a little less than 2x an employees wage for total cost is not to out of line.

 

[bholler]

The only thing going up around here is property taxes due to Govt Unions and Teacher unions. Inflation has been almost nonexistant for quite a few years otherwise. Unless you count healthcare but thats a whole nother thread.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-workers-see-fastest-wage-increase-in-a-decade/2018/10/31/3c2e7894-dc85-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html?noredirect=on

Yes that is a completely different issue than labor unions. All unions certainly have their problems. But without them workers would be powerless.

 

[bholler]

It’s been a long time since any of those arguments were really relevant to our national situation, no need to jump back in time four generations to justify a modern crime.

Collective bargaining is simple extortion, and recognition of the fact that what you do is not worth what you’re attempting to charge for it.

You don't think corporations would gladly cut workers wages to continue to increase profits if given the chance? I agree there is plenty of corruption in unions. But the American worker even non union ones would be screwed without them.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

They are pricing themselves into automation.

They all are screwing themselves. Wages are only part of the picture. What are their benefits worth? Why does the pickup cost so much? Pension expenses. $33 an hour is beans. GM is getting labor for that wage. It's all of those pensions and healthcare benefits they pay for retired people that is killing them. It's the same as the post office. BUT, they agreed to those terms. Maybe it was to get lines moving again, but it kicked the can down the road. I think the straightaway ended and they are looking at a hairpin curve with a cliff just beyond.

It's not a single party that is to blame, both parties are to blame.

 

[Ashful]

You don't think corporations would gladly cut workers wages to continue to increase profits if given the chance?

I believe the market will find what that worker's output is really worth. That's how it works in my profession, anyway.

 

[bholler]

I believe the market will find what that worker's output is really worth. That's how it works in my profession, anyway.

Yes for your job. But doesn't your job rely pretty heavily on govt contracts? If I am mistaken I apologize. But if so that pay scale is so far out of whack comparing it to the wages for the general population is not very relevant.

 

[Ashful]

Yes for your job. But doesn't your job rely pretty heavily on govt contracts?

Approximately 8% of our revenue over the last 5 years came from US government (defense) work, the rest is commercial or foreign government. Prior to 2014, it was more than 99% commercial.

 

[bholler]

Ok then I was mistaken sorry. But still to compare the pay rates of educated professionals to a factory worker who in most cases is pretty expendable is not exactly valid.

 

[Ashful]

Ok then I was mistaken sorry. But still to compare the pay rates of educated professionals to a factory worker who in most cases is pretty expendable is not exactly valid.

I'm not comparing. I'm just saying that if you don't want to live on factory worker wages, learn a trade, and get out of the factory. Don't assume that necessarily means an expensive college or any other perceived high barrier to entry, it could be plumbing or sweeping chimneys. Heck, one of my good buddies is a house painter, and he does well enough on that, certainly better than the factory wages debated above.

 

[bholler]

I'm not comparing. I'm just saying that if you don't want to live on factory worker wages, learn a trade, and get out of the factory. Don't assume that necessarily means an expensive college or any other perceived high barrier to entry, it could be plumbing or sweeping chimneys. Heck, one of my good buddies is a house painter, and he does well enough on that, certainly better than the factory wages debated above.

Untill those factory workers that used to make a good wage and could afford to pay to have painting done etc get bumped down to min wage. Then there is no one to pay for that skilled labor.

And for the record I do have a fancy college degree but after working in corporate design for a few years I quickly learned I wasn't made to sit behind a desk. I very rarely regret that decision.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I worked 10 years in finance. Met my wife at Morgan Stanley. Left that world and fell into nuisance wildlife. Loved it, and opened my own shop with a buddy to fix the things I didnt like other places doing. We started our 3rd employee Monday. 150% personnel growth since May.

 

[bholler]

There are some days I am standing on a snowy roof freezing my butt off that I think a nice warm chair behind a desk would be nice again though. But those days are few and far between.