Vacuuming Pellets Through my Floor?

[VTPellets]

Hi all, I've been lurking for a bit looking for some ideas on how to make my pellet transfer duties a bit easier this winter and I thought I'd see if anyone has better insight into my situation. I have a P43 (love it) on the main floor of my house, and we store our bagged pellets in the basement.They're delivered on pallets and we toss them down a ramp placed in our bulkhead, so transporting them for storage is covered.

My chagrin begins with hauling bags upstairs a couple times a week to keep a semi-decorative 5-bag capacity barrel next to the stove filled with loose pellets, from which we subsequently fill our stove by hand. I'd like to implement some sort of short-range vertical vacuum or auger system through a small hole in the floor to transport loose pellets up about ten feet into the holding barrel, or better yet, right into my stove hopper. My two possible approaches are as follows, and I'd like to hear any feedback (even, "you're an idiot; you'll blow up your house") if you have it:

1. Take the head off a powerful wet/dry vac and place it on the barrel (creating the needed vacuum), with the barrel acting as the holding container. Cut a 3" hole in the floor, stick the hose through it, and suck up pellets from a large trashbin in the basement that I can fill down there, without hauling the bags upstairs. I prefer this approach.

2. Create an auger out of a 6"x10ft PVC pipe and auger bit (http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-diameter-auger-bit-95973.html) with an extension pole. This would also go through the floor and into a trashbin filled with pellets. I'm not clear on the physics involved with a vertical auger, especially one that doesn't "auger" the whole way up the system. Will it "push" the pellets above the screw with pellets it draws up? Or just stop and bind up?

Any other ideas are welcome. We don't have central vac, and I'm looking to keep the project relatively inexpensive (hundreds at most, not thousands).

TL;DR: suck or screw? you decide ;-)

 

[Michael6268]

I dont think the shop vac would work. I assume your talking about running in reverse. Think it would clog.
Option 2 might work.

 

[VTPellets]

running in reverse.

Nope, running as it was designed, but with the holding barrel attached to it instead, basically.

 

[Michael6268]

Oh. Ok. I misunderstood. Thought you were installing vacuum in basement and trying to shoot up. Didn't think you wanted an ugly shop-vac sitting on the decorative barrel next to your stove.
That would probably work!!

 

[Arti]

Problem with shop vac is that it will exhaust some dust in the air unless U use something like a drywall filter in it.
6 in auger 8 to 10 ft long will need a lot of power to turn it, I would suggest something in the 3 or 4 inch range check farm stores for one that size. also a 6 inch auger would move a lot of pellets really fast!

The screw part needs to be full length of the outer housing with some sticking out of the feed end to get the pellets to get to the auger. If you look closely at a grain auger the flights are not spaced the same distance apart from end to end with the feed end being tighter wound and farther apart at the delivery end.

The power is applied where the pellets would come out, I suspect that a good heavy duty 1/2 in drill would turn it. U could take the drill off when not using it, U could possibly cut a hole in the bottom of the storage barrel and down thru the floor to the basement that way the auger would be hidden in the upstairs barrel when not used.

 

[canmic]

Ok, neither of the things you are proposing would actually work, but you are on the right track. Here's the problems with those methods:

For the vac, you need to move a LOT of air along with the pellets to pull them up and pulling them up 10 feet vertically would require a VERY strong vacuum. Minimum of about 180-200 inches of water in suction power. Also, the pellets inside the barrel would be pushing back down on the pellets coming up, so there's just no way that you'd be able to produce enough suction to move them.

For the auger, the auger needs to run the entire length and then a bit more to get the pellets out of the tube. Most augers for moving things like pellets are closer together at the feed end and further apart at the dump end, the reason for this is to prevent binding by having the pellets more "loose" as they move higher and higher. Also, most augers are only about 1/2" or 3/4" thick, sort of like fat springs, with the middle being empty. This is partly for torque reasons, partly to prevent binding and partly to allow for some flexibility in the pipe, a solid auger would likely wear a hole in the side of the pipe pretty quickly. Because of this "hole" in the middle of the auger, they can't run completely vertically, you need to have them at an angle for them to work. in fact, many augers are in a trough rather than a pipe, and they only move pellets along the bottom of the trough, this helps prevent binding and wear and tear on the auger and the trough/pipe. About 60 degrees is as steep as you can hope for, most are closer to 45 degrees. Again with the auger, you can't have the pellets being offloaded being made to push other pellets out of the way, they need to offload into an empty space.

So, if you want to use an auger, it needs to come up at an angle and extend all the way to above the top of your barrel and then have a drop hose down into your barrel. that would work. For turning the auger, don't try to do it with a drill, you'd burn out the drill pretty quickly and you would also have a heck of a time holding it still. You would have to use a real auger motor, something around 3/4 to 1 HP would be plenty. Note that auger motors are geared for torque not speed, they typically run at quite a low RPM compared to a drill, but they have LOTS of torque.

For the suction system, you CAN do it with a decent shop vac type vacuum, around 6 or 6.5 amps or so, but you need to use a cyclone type device. Here are websites of 2 examples I have found of such devices:

http://www.pellvac.com/e/start-e.php

http://www.cornvac.com

Note that I haven't been able to find anyone selling the pellvac in the US but the cornvac comes from the US so that's easy to get.

In either case, you need a really airtight container as your vessel, trying to do that with your main barrel would be a pain because you need a lid you can easily open and close. Better to have a smaller vessel, like the ones they have on the above websites, that dumps into your barrel.

Also, the cornvac doesn't use a pre-vac catch cyclonic filter so I imagine the dust from pellets would plug up the shop vac filter pretty quickly. I would suggest using something like the whirlwind ash cyclone (which can also be used to clean out your pellet stove ash) as a pre-filter to the shop vac. You won't lose any suction and it will keep the shop vac filter from getting plugged up and making you lose suction. I have found the whirlwind for sale in the US at quite a few places, pretty easy to get.

As far as dumping directly into your stove, it could be done with either system but the problems would be that it would mean a big ugly auger or receiver sticking up where it's visible and obvious, possible fire problems (I wouldn't want a big plastic thing hanging over a running pellet stove) and dust problems. Pellet stoves are meant to be run with their hopper doors closed to keep smoke from travelling up the feed chute and into the house, also if sparks start going up the feed chute in an updraft, you are going to run into backburn problems.

Of the two systems I would go with a vacuum system for a couple of reasons. First off, it would be cheaper, you could likely use your existing shop vac if it's a 6 or 6.5 amp, just be careful how you run the piping, don't try to go direct vertical, some slope will help and you can also do a bit of a variation of the angles with some 22 degree long elbows (made by cutting conduit 90s down to 22 degrees) to break the rise into multiple segments. Second, it would be dust free if you use one of the devices in the links I put above, with a cyclone pre-filter. Third, the entire apparatus could relatively easily be "put away" in a closet with only the pipe going from the floor down to the basement hopper remaining in place, so when you aren't using it, you don't need to look at it. Fourth, it can't cut your finger off if you get careless (There are MANY accidental finger amputations in workers who work with augers every day!) I found the cornvac website to have a lot of good information and important tips on what works and what does not work, for example, you can't use a standard shop vac hose, they collapse too easily under high vacuum and make sure you do the piping correctly to prevent clogging and damage to the pellets being moved etc...

I'm in the process of coming up with a very similar system to solve the same problem, so I've spent a lot of time looking at all the options and working out the physics. I think it's a great thing to put in.

Unfortunately, I have more than a 10 foot rise to deal with, I have stoves on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors of the house. I am figuring out how to use a combination of vacuum and auger systems with the augers doing most of the "rise" where I can and then using vacuum to move things from a small bucket at the top of the auger to where I want the pellets to end up. That way I can put the augers in a sort of ladder arrangement with "landings" inside the old coal elevator shaft (it's like a dumbwaiter shaft) and then move them horizontally from the landings to where the stoves are inside the walls using vacuum. I do have a strong central vac already piped in so that helps a lot.

I am working within my wife's requirements. She wants "something that I can just push a button or flip a switch and the pellets get dumped into a coal bucket that I can use to fill the stoves, and I don't want any dust or mess in the house and I want the whole thing hidden inside the walls and closets so no one sees it when it's not being used".... Thank god she didn't also say "and it has to be cheap", whew!

 

[VTPellets]

Canmic, thanks for your input, that was fantastic.

At this point I'm leaning away from the auger idea mainly because of the engineering involved, and I'm not sure I can solve the angles I would need to run it at 60degrees or less in my house.

If I used a vac, I think my setup would be even simpler than running a dedicated pipe. While you mentioned that flexible hose would collapse under heavy vacuum, I would most likely suck up pellets from the surface of the container in the basement, so I think I could avoid the huge pressures involved in running it from the bottom of the barrel and having the pressure of the pellets working against the system. This would also allow me to be more flexible about the angles. Luckily, my storage is directly below the stove itself, so the distances are pretty short.

So basically I'm thinking a high powered wet/dry vac with a hepa filter or drywall filter.

One remaining question I have is the risk of fire by moving, even a relatively small amount, of pellets through the vac? Will the fines and dust cause enough friction over about ten feet of hose or pvc pipe to be an issue? I've heard this mentioned as a possible downfall of a vac system.

Again, thanks for your write up; that was probably the best explanation of both systems I've seen yet.

 

[Arti]

I would recommend an anti static hose or use a grounding wire in the pipe. I moved 100 lbs with a shop vac once and the static electric buildup was incredible!

 

[canmic]

One remaining question I have is the risk of fire by moving, even a relatively small amount, of pellets through the vac? Will the fines and dust cause enough friction over about ten feet of hose or pvc pipe to be an issue? I've heard this mentioned as a possible downfall of a vac system.

Again, thanks for your write up; that was probably the best explanation of both systems I've seen yet.

Fire risk is an important thing to think about, but not because of friction in the pipe.

There are a couple of things that can go "boom" on you.

First off, you need need need to trap the dust and contain and control it. Flammable/explosive dust + electric motor = boom. You can't let the dust get into the shop vac motor's airspace.

Another problem is static electricity sparks. YOU MUST GROUND YOUR HOSE. Static Sparks + Explosive dust = boom.

Some vacs are "explosion proof" and can be used to suck up a gasoline spill (for example) because they simply do not produce any sparks outside of a hermetically sealed chamber.

Personally, I prefer just not having high airbourne concentrations of explosive dust. The best way to trap and contain the dust is a cyclonic filter. There are a couple of reasons for this, but the primary reason is that filters are more of a problem than a solution.

Basically, if you use a hepa or fine particle filter, yes you will keep dust out of the motor and keep dust from being blown out the exhaust and all over your nice clean couch, drapes, carpets, and everwhere else that your wife would come after you with a rolling pin for. BUT where does that dust go? Into the filter. What happens when the filter becomes full? You lost suction and you overheat your motor, bad things.

You know those dyson vacuums? The ones that has the guy in the commercial saying that they don't lose suction? That's because they are using a cyclone seperator and not a filter to trap the dust and dirt.

I know someone who used a regular central vac, with the default filter, vented into their finished basement, to clean the cold ash from a pellet stove... He almost ended up in divorce court. Apparently his wife didn't like the new all black colour scheme of the finished basement (walls, floor, ceiling, windows, etc). I told him about using a cyclone ash vac and now he can clean his stove and stay married.

As far as the hose collapsing goes. The point you have to remember is that you need a lot of suction power happening to lift pellets 10 feet vertically (or mostly vertically). Lots of suction means lots of negative pressure in the hose between your vacuum and your barrel. If that's the soft shop vac type thin plastic hose, it's gonna become a long skinny pancake. You need a hose that can stand up to the vacuum without collapsing.

Also, most shop vac hoses aren't smooth on the inside, they have ridges. This helps them to not collapse but it's gonna help pellets to get stuck, big time.

A nice smooth hose is best. You can use something like 2" ID Sched 40 PVC for most of the run and then a 2" ID smooth vacuum reinforced rubber hose on the end, the ones with basically a wire spring inside to help them deal with vacuum.

If you really really wanna use your barrel as the vacuum canister, bring the sched 40 up through the floor, through the bottom of your barrel and then up to the TOP of your barrel, stick a 90 on it that points away from your vacuum inlet connection on your barrel lid and make sure you keep it low enough to close the barrel lid, but not lower than that. This way the incoming pellets aren't having to push the already there pellets out of the way. Sort of like an upside down dip tube.

 

[Scopedope@623]

I presently transport my wood pellets from my metal carport to a self made wood hopper inside the house that sits next to my Harman PC45 pellet stove.
The metal carport is where I store my wood pellets (5 tons) and it is located approximately 90 to 95 feet from the pellet stove.
I buried a 1 1/4" black pipe ( the kind used for geothermal ) from the carport to the house wood hopper.
In the carport I have a 55 gallon plastic barrel ( holds about 6 bags of wood pellets ) with the black pipe connected with pvc pipe fittings.
In the house between black pipe and wood hopper I have a CornVac and ShopVac ( 16 gal. - 6.5 HP ) that transfers the wood pellets.
From the wood hopper, I dump the pellets into a 5 gallon bucket then transfer them to the stove hopper.
I have yet to connect the wood hopper discharge to the pellet stove hopper.

 

[VTPellets]

Okay, I'm getting a much better picture of the vac idea. Two primary considerations being suction power to move vertically, and not blowing up my house.

I think that instead of using a large storage barrel next to the stove to fill with the vac from my basement and manually scoop to fill the hopper, perhaps using a simple 6.5hp vac with cyclonic filter attachment and 5 gallon bucket would be better. Like the corn vac or Oneida filter. Just use that bucket to fill the hopper itself. That'd save space, and probably be much more effective in terms of suction power.

How would one ground a pvc pipe setup, per se?

Thanks again for all the helpful responses. This place is great!

 

[chken]

Sawdust is explosive, please be careful.

 

[TimfromMA]

The motor inside your basic shop vacs can also generate sparks. What you want to do is extremely combustible if you aren't SUPER careful.

 

[rona]

Okay, I'm getting a much better picture of the vac idea. Two primary considerations being suction power to move vertically, and not blowing up my house.

I think that instead of using a large storage barrel next to the stove to fill with the vac from my basement and manually scoop to fill the hopper, perhaps using a simple 6.5hp vac with cyclonic filter attachment and 5 gallon bucket would be better. Like the corn vac or Oneida filter. Just use that bucket to fill the hopper itself. That'd save space, and probably be much more effective in terms of suction power.

How would one ground a pvc pipe setup, per se?

Thanks again for all the helpful responses. This place is great!

run a metal screw through the pvc pipe every 5 feet so the tip is inside the pvc then run a copper wire around the head of the screw Then ground the end of the copper wire.

 

[3650]

any news?

 

[FirepotPete]

I moved pellets like that the first year I was burning. I can tell you that pellets will break apart using any vacuum system. Some are worse than others but you will end up with a lot of small pieces that need to be filtered out or your filter will plug up or your bag will fill fast.
If you do try this, PLEASE, make sure you have it grounded as others have said. Even if it doesn't go boom a static discharge can jump to you, it will be a big blue arc, and if your wife is watching she will try and talk you out of burning pellets, I know, I did it. And of all the dang things, I'm an electrician, grew up farming and knew all the dangers of moving feed and the dust and static problems. I just didn't connect all that lifelong knowledge to moving pellets.
I burn 100% corn now and move tons of it every year with a corn vac into 300 gallon IBC totes, from the totes into a 55 gal drum. The dust is a problem, if you use a HEPA filter it will plug fast and you will need to clean it often. If you use a dry wall bag, you will need to stop a lot before it fills, empty it, put it back in or you will be buying a lot of bags.
My setup is in my garage so for me this is an easy way to save on filters. I ran a piece of used shopvac hose inside my 16 gallon shopvac where the hose comes into the shopvac. I then put about 5 gallons of water in the shopvac. The air must pass through the water before going to the filter, it prefilters the air taking out a lot of dust, saving me from having to clean the filter.
I have to empty the water after moving about 1/2 ton of corn, refill and start again. This will vary with how much dust you have and how much the pellets break apart from vacuuming.
Good luck!

 

[3650]

Tbh I am looking at moving corn. I'm just getting it dumped into the bed of my pick up and using a scoop shovel to move it.

What is the process for using the cornvac to move to totes? I'm not clear on how the cornvac works.

 

[FirepotPete]

The cornvac is actually 2 pieces. One is the large 25 gallon secondary tank. It's just a large tank made with thick plastic so it doesn't collapse under pressure. At the bottom is a blast gate, you keep it closed while vacuuming, once the tank is full you turn off the vac and open the blast gate and the corn then falls into the totes.
The second part is the head (I guess that's what it's called). that fits on top of the secondary tank. It's about 8" diameter and comes apart to clean and so that you can spin the top and bottom parts. On the top there is a port that the shopvac connects to. On the bottom is a port that you connect hose/pvc pipe, that is the one that collects the corn from your truck. Between the two ports there is a screen, I'm guessing 3/8" square. The screen stops the corn from going into the shopvac hose forcing the corn down into the secondary tank. Smaller pieces and dust are sucked UP and into the shopvac.

I actually will be moving corn tomorrow, unless something else comes up, and will get some pics of the whole setup while using it.

 

[3650]

ok thanks

 

[FirepotPete]

ok thanks

Calling for rain here this afternoon, so I won't be moving corn today. Unusual for rain, should be snow coming down by now! I will still get out and try and get some pics. It's pretty simple once you see how it works, no magic, just suction and gravity!

 

[tiger]

The more I read about the complexity of this, the more I wonder if a good idea for my needs is a old-guy's "stair lift" leading up from the basement -- not only will it get ME up and down the stairs one day, but it should move pellet bags 5 at a time.

 

[3650]

You may have a new industry there...."The Acorn Bag Lift...and no we aren't referring to your old lady"

 

[tiger]

You may have a new industry there...."The Acorn Bag Lift...and no we aren't referring to your old lady"

With my luck, it would void the warranty, however.

 

[FirepotPete]

Here's the whole setup. The cornvac system is the round 25 gallon tank on top of the tote. The round part on top of the tank is the two part head that separates the dust from the corn. It's just a screen in the middle, note the large black hose on top is from the shopvac, the small black hose runs to the wand that pulls the corn into the cleaner. Also note in the top left there is a piece of 1 1/2" pvc pipe. I use to use that to extend out to the truck from the cornvac and then put the small black hose on it. I've found that the less the vac has to pull the better, even if it's mostly horizontal. So now I just move one tote out of the way and back the truck right into the garage so just the hose reaches. Easier on the shopvac and a little faster. All the wires hanging around are for grounding. I have them all running to a neutral block that is connected to a ground rod I put in outside.

This is the end of the hose with a piece of 1 1/2" pvc pipe made as a wand. The end of the pipe is cut out so that it fits the groves in the bed liner of my pickup. That also helps pickup the corn. Above the orange tape are holes drilled for makeup air, if you don't have enough air mixing with the corn it won't clean it as well. Don't be afraid to drill holes, if you get to many you can always tape the shut until you find the right balance. The orange tape is just a guide for me when sucking corn out of the IBC totes, it tells me how deep the wand is without burying the holes and plugging them.

To transfer the pellets from the IBC totes I just move the cornvac head onto a 3" pvc connecter built onto the top of the 55 gallon lid, such the corn out and then use 5 gallon buckets to bring to the stove. Excuse the mess but I was busy while taking pics!


Also the wooden stand is something I built to hold the 25 gallon tank above the totes to make it stable and be able to easily get to the blast gate on the bottom of the tank to open and let the corn go into the totes.

 

[Watcher1]

Hi all, I've been lurking for a bit looking for some ideas on how to make my pellet transfer duties a bit easier this winter and I thought I'd see if anyone has better insight into my situation. I have a P43 (love it) on the main floor of my house, and we store our bagged pellets in the basement.They're delivered on pallets and we toss them down a ramp placed in our bulkhead, so transporting them for storage is covered.

My chagrin begins with hauling bags upstairs a couple times a week to keep a semi-decorative 5-bag capacity barrel next to the stove filled with loose pellets, from which we subsequently fill our stove by hand. I'd like to implement some sort of short-range vertical vacuum or auger system through a small hole in the floor to transport loose pellets up about ten feet into the holding barrel, or better yet, right into my stove hopper. My two possible approaches are as follows, and I'd like to hear any feedback (even, "you're an idiot; you'll blow up your house") if you have it:

1. Take the head off a powerful wet/dry vac and place it on the barrel (creating the needed vacuum), with the barrel acting as the holding container. Cut a 3" hole in the floor, stick the hose through it, and suck up pellets from a large trashbin in the basement that I can fill down there, without hauling the bags upstairs. I prefer this approach.

2. Create an auger out of a 6"x10ft PVC pipe and auger bit (http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-diameter-auger-bit-95973.html) with an extension pole. This would also go through the floor and into a trashbin filled with pellets. I'm not clear on the physics involved with a vertical auger, especially one that doesn't "auger" the whole way up the system. Will it "push" the pellets above the screw with pellets it draws up? Or just stop and bind up?

Any other ideas are welcome. We don't have central vac, and I'm looking to keep the project relatively inexpensive (hundreds at most, not thousands).

TL;DR: suck or screw? you decide ;-)

Here's the whole setup. The cornvac system is the round 25 gallon tank on top of the tote. The round part on top of the tank is the two part head that separates the dust from the corn. It's just a screen in the middle, note the large black hose on top is from the shopvac, the small black hose runs to the wand that pulls the corn into the cleaner. Also note in the top left there is a piece of 1 1/2" pvc pipe. I use to use that to extend out to the truck from the cornvac and then put the small black hose on it. I've found that the less the vac has to pull the better, even if it's mostly horizontal. So now I just move one tote out of the way and back the truck right into the garage so just the hose reaches. Easier on the shopvac and a little faster. All the wires hanging around are for grounding. I have them all running to a neutral block that is connected to a ground rod I put in outside.
View attachment 168937
This is the end of the hose with a piece of 1 1/2" pvc pipe made as a wand. The end of the pipe is cut out so that it fits the groves in the bed liner of my pickup. That also helps pickup the corn. Above the orange tape are holes drilled for makeup air, if you don't have enough air mixing with the corn it won't clean it as well. Don't be afraid to drill holes, if you get to many you can always tape the shut until you find the right balance. The orange tape is just a guide for me when sucking corn out of the IBC totes, it tells me how deep the wand is without burying the holes and plugging them.
View attachment 168938
To transfer the pellets from the IBC totes I just move the cornvac head onto a 3" pvc connecter built onto the top of the 55 gallon lid, such the corn out and then use 5 gallon buckets to bring to the stove. Excuse the mess but I was busy while taking pics!
View attachment 168939

Also the wooden stand is something I built to hold the 25 gallon tank above the totes to make it stable and be able to easily get to the blast gate on the bottom of the tank to open and let the corn go into the totes.

Hey Pete, I built the one that was on IBC board, works great but I don't think it would be good for pellets.