Water storage using recycled propane tanks

[NoSubstituteForFire]

I live in NC and I am interested in an Econoburn or Garn type system that uses thermal storage a.) because the efficiency makes a lot of sense to me, and b.) because I have the room for the storage. I am leaning towards a system like econoburn which does not come with the storage automatically included because the shipping costs of getting a huge Garn system down to NC from Minnesota or or wherever it is manufactured is pretty exorbitant. An Econoburn dealer told me that folks use recycled propane tanks stacked on top of one another as storage.

Does anyone have a DIY water storage set up like this that they could show me plans and/or pictures of? I'd be much obliged!

 

[huffdawg]

If you have the height stand them vertically. I think it's a little better for stratification. Try the search.. I do have pics but can't access right now.

 

[huffdawg]

 

[jebatty]

A "small" 4000 gal pressurized storage tank.

 

[airlina]

Here is my setup with an Econoburn boiler and 500 gallons of storage, using a repurposed propane tank

 

[NoSubstituteForFire]

Here is my setup with an Econoburn boiler and 500 gallons of storage, using a repurposed propane tank

Airlina, this is a handsome set up. How much area are you heating and in what area? have you found 500 gallons to be adequate?

 

[NoSubstituteForFire]

View attachment 189958

Thanks for sharing, huffdawg. Since I am planning on insulating the building I build to enclose the tanks and burner, I'm inclined to put them horizontally so I don't have to make the building so high. How significant are the advantages of stratification? Also, how did you source a tank? Was the tank leaking gas and did it require any repair before hooking up and insulating with spray foam?

 

[Fred61]

If you have extra time this winter you could read a few hundred posts on this forum pertaining to pressurized storage installation and operation and by springtime you would have the equivalent of a PHD in knowledge on the subject.

 

[TCaldwell]

congratulations on the decision to heat with wood, each ''system'' has their own options that might fit your situation. The stand alone boiler would allow the flexibility of the storage possibly being remote if needed. Obviously with a garn's integrated storage, this flexibility is lost. The garn will most likely have a higher firing rate equating to shorter burn times. Honestly I'm not sure the shipping costs will be more than the cost of propane tanks, laddomat for boiler return protection, insulating and piping.

 

[Bob Rohr]

a single 500 gallon with "two pipe" connections, one fluid system. LP boiler heats only upper portion of tank, about 35 gallons. Solar and wood heat entire tank.
DHW via a 40 plate HX.

Solar, wood and or LP input. DHW, low temperature radiant, and high temperature radiators as loads.

Several wraps of under slab insulation. De-mineralized water with Rhomar hydronic treatment.

 

[maple1]

I live in NC and I am interested in an Econoburn or Garn type system that uses thermal storage a.) because the efficiency makes a lot of sense to me, and b.) because I have the room for the storage. I am leaning towards a system like econoburn which does not come with the storage automatically included because the shipping costs of getting a huge Garn system down to NC from Minnesota or or wherever it is manufactured is pretty exorbitant. An Econoburn dealer told me that folks use recycled propane tanks stacked on top of one another as storage.

Does anyone have a DIY water storage set up like this that they could show me plans and/or pictures of? I'd be much obliged!

Time to bury yourself in this place - all kinds of postings on this.

Mine is in the link in my sig.

 

[stee6043]

I would be one to say don't give up on the Garn so quickly. If you have the room I feel like there is no better setup than the Garn rigs. I, and many others, do not have the room so the modular storage is the only way to go.

Work with them on freight. Or perhaps even quote your own guy? Crap, rent a Uhaul and make a fun road trip out of it!

 

[jebatty]

How significant are the advantages of stratification?

Depends. If your need is low temp radiant, like in-floor, stratification probably is of no benefit. I supply mixed down 100F water to my in-floor, set at constant 61F floor temperature. The primary benefit of stratification in this situation is charging the tank to make sure the coldest (bottom) water gets returned to the boiler as the tank heats up. Otherwise stratification has no material benefit.

If you need 160F+ water, then stratification can be quite important. Keep in mind that flow velocities in the tank, water injection and draw locations, temperature of return water, and more affect the need for and ability to achieve high stratification. I tend to think that discussion arguing for maximized stratification is over-blown and also an illusive goal in real world applications.

 

[Bob Rohr]

Here is some reading in regards to the term Energy, tank stratification, etc. A lot depends on how you want to use the tank load, unload, and temperatures.

Google "Idronics 17" to find a pdf of this journal.

 

[jebatty]

Just finished a burn, 1000 gal horizontal tank.
(broken image removed)

 

[dogwood]

Here's a couple pictures of my thousand gallon andhydrous ammonia tank (same as a propane tank), as I was framing it in prior to insulating with loose fill insulation. No need to stack two five hundred tanks if you have the sixteen foot space for one thousand gallon tank. The plumbing to this storage is easy to visualize, but not yet in when these pictures were taken, One 1.5 inch pipe runs from the top of the boiler to the top of the tank for supply. There is another 1.5 inch pipe that runs from the bottom of the tank back to the bottom of the boiler for return. There were 1.5" fittings to receive the pipes already on the tank when I bought it. I did have to raise the tank on poured cement blocks for the bottom return fitting to clear the cement floor.

I've attached a pdf from Tarm Biomass with plumbing schematics. I used schematic PT3 from that for my system, using only two heating circuits, one for a water to air heat exchanger in the plenum over our forced hot air furnace, and one to heat our domestic hot water tank through a flat plate heat exchanger. You can find more plumbing schematics for storage at https://woodboilers.com/media/wysiwyg/Downloads/Plumbing/TarmWoodBoilerPlanningGuide.pdf. There are quite a few photos of storage you can locate here in the Boiler Room with the site search function. Good luck.

Mike

 

[NoSubstituteForFire]

Thanks, Mike. I think this is an attractive (and cheaper?) solution to tank insulation. Thanks. I don't like the spray foam too much, and I've wondered, it would make doing a repair impossible.

Have you found that the loose insulation does and adequate job?

Here's a couple pictures of my thousand gallon andhydrous ammonia tank (same as a propane tank), as I was framing it in prior to insulating with loose fill insulation. No need to stack two five hundred tanks if you have the sixteen foot space for one thousand gallon tank. The plumbing to storage is easy to visualize, but not yet in at the time of these pictures were taken, One 1.5 inch pipe runs from the top of the boiler to the top of the tank for supply. There is a 1.5 inch pipe that runs from the bottom of the tank back to the bottom of the boiler for return. There were 1.5" fittings to receive the pipes already on the tank. I did have to raise the tank on poured cement blocks for the bottom return fitting to clear the cement floor.

I've attached a pdf from Tarm Biomass with plumbing schematics. I used schematic PT3 from that pdf for my system, using but two heating circuits, one for a water to air heat exchanger in the plenum over our forced hot air furnace, and one to heat our DHW (domestic hot water) through a flat plate heat exchanger. You can find more plumbing schematics for storage at https://woodboilers.com/media/wysiwyg/Downloads/Plumbing/TarmWoodBoilerPlanningGuide.pdf. There are quite a few photos of storage you can locate here in the Boiler Room with the site search function. Good luck.

Mike[/QUOTE

 

[airlina]

Airlina, this is a handsome set up. How much area are you heating and in what area? have you found 500 gallons to be adequate?

I am heating a log home that is 2700 sq ft (includes,basement, first floor, loft area) plus DHW. I have old style original 180 degree baseboard emitters which are not ideal for recouping all the BTU's from storage , but work well enough. With my 500 gal. storage at OAT above 32 deg F , I get by on one 4-5 hour burn per day (my boiler is an Econoburn 100 ,which is the smallest they make). Once I get into the depths of winter here in upstate NY (typically 10-30 deg outside), i do two burns a day , one at 630 am, then at around 630 pm, with each burn around 4 hours long (one full load of wood in the burn chamber) As you will see in researching this forum, the more storage the better so a 1000 gals would be great, but was not practical for me. I burned my Econoburn for 4 years without any storage, so making the system switch to storage last year really added to the convenience of my wood burning even with a measly 500 gals.

 

[dogwood]

NoSubstituteforFire, I think it depends where you locate your tank if loose fill insulation will be adequate. If your tank is within the heated envelope of your house, like in a basement, any heat loss would not be wasted. I don't know for sure if spray foam would work better since I've only had the one type in use. But I think it would be more effective because it forms a complete airtight barrier around the tank like a thermos does. In retrospect, outside of expense, I wish I had done it that way even though I don't detect any heat escaping my tank's insulated enclosure. The sheetrock and plywood on it's outside is always room temperature to the touch. You can find threads by site members, who have spray foamed tanks kept in unheated spaces, who report little heat loss. The grass is always greener.......

I used batts of Rockwool between the studs and joists and loose fill Rockwool in the remaining inside space around the tank. The existing back wall of the garage was 7 inches wide and already had doubled R-13 batts of the pink stuff inside. Rockwool has excellent heat/fire resistant properties which is why I chose it, Their loose fill product cannot be blown in however. It has too be pulled apart and put in by hand, which is annoying.

If you go that way, make sure to not purchase the soundproofing Rockwool batts by mistake. They look identical but are stated to have zero R value. I made sure to put vapor barrier around the enclosure to avoid air infiltration. I boxed off spaces around fittings so I could get to them without a lot of insulation falling out.

Mike

 

[S.Whiplash]

A "small" 4000 gal pressurized storage tank.

View attachment 189962

View attachment 189961

I'm salivating. Where do you find tanks like those?