whitfield profile 20 II start up problem

[z1robbie]

Don2222
Thanks for the information on the eye bypass surgery on the Profile 20. Simple fix except for getting the bottom screw in the snap switch. I couldn't find my swivel socket, might have worked.

I got a Profile 20 II and 33 bags of Somersets for a song and the stove puts out good heat and is very quiet, Compared to my US 6039 it is silent running except for pellets sometimes dropping clanging and bouncing out. Terminal velocity?

My problem is: on start up the Profile fills the entire burn pot with pellets then smokes like crazy and ignites with a flash unless I remove 1/2 the pellets . Then it fills the pot again just before going into what I assume is "normal" mode.(blower slows down and feeds regularly)

The second is not a big deal if the fire is going good. Just have to baby sit while it starts. More air or less as needed. From then on it runs perfect.

The first might be a real problem for the future owner wanting to run a t-stat. Previous owner ran one and maybe that's why he got rid of it so cheap. Along with the eye problem. She was very erratic before successful surgery.

I have done a thorough cleaning according to the instructions given here. The stove was pretty clean to begin with.

Can you pause the feed like my US 6039?
Is there any way to adjust this?
Or is the board bad?
Even with abandoning the igniter I would need to remove pellets or switch off the auger. If I owned it for long, it might get a toggle switch.
My friends Advantage II only needs half a pot to start as well.

I have done some of firepot Pete's and the other US Stove suggestions on my US 6039 and will do some more .
Thanks again for everyone here and their technical advice . Your experience is appreciated.
US 6039 saved me when my furnace went out last year. New furnace but don't want to fork out the dough for "Gas Installation fee" when the stove is all I have needed this year, I went to "8" the past 2 days with 10 -15 degree "highs".

 

[Lake Girl]

Sorry no one got back to you ... took a look at the manual. There seems to be the ability to adjust fuel using software that a dealer has. How old is the unit? Have you tried using a DMM to rule out components vs. board? Caution working inside the cabinet! Have you searched through the forum to see if this has been covered already? You might want to search just using Whitfield (larger search including all models).

Stovensen (from Denmark so time difference) and Snowy Rivers are the best folks to give advice on the particulars of the Whitfields. Snowy has a thread showing a control system she assembled per her needs as they burn shells.

Keep us posted...

 

[z1robbie]

Lake Girl,
Thanks, I've been all over the forums about "Whitfield" "Profile 20 & 30" and my US Stove. Haven't found this problem or like it.
I have read the Whitfield manuals (Profile and Advantage) and the adjustments seem like they would be used only if the stove didn't burn or heat well. Once the Profile 20 is started it shifts heat ranges with a small adjustment of the damper and will run until the pellets are gone. Seems to burn reasonably clean except for runaway pellets others have mentioned. The burn pod mods might help.
I will check for Stovensen and Snowy Rivers posts . I might PM a few of the other Whit owners as well.
I was thinking software adjustment as well, I can't see a component problem as the strategy for start up seems to be the problem.
Really need a Profile owner to let me know how their stove starts as I don't know myself what is normal. Just that this doesn't work.
For a basic stove it would work fine. I like the fact it has the same height exhaust as my stove and I may have a good backup if it won't sell for the start up difficulties. Thanks again.

 

[Stovensen]

My problem is: on start up the Profile fills the entire burn pot with pellets then smokes like crazy and ignites with a flash unless I remove 1/2 the pellets . Then it fills the pot again just before going into what I assume is "normal" mode.(blower slows down and feeds regularly)

First things to check are these: The state of the igniter and possible air flow restriction in the igniter tube.
A worn out igniter will have a resistance that is higher than the nominal of app. 40 Ohm ( heated state, a little lower when cold ).
Cleaning the igniter tube can be tricky. Especially the inner part with the air intake hole facing the stove innards. A pipe cleaner and some canned compressed air should do to job.
A badly clogged igniter tube will have a hard time transporting the heated air to the burn pot.

Changing the factory settings is the last resort to turn to, but it can be done via the Calibration button on the control board.
I remember a thread from last year, where a Profile owner had almost similar issue with his stove. I found the thread and it is very long, so if you want the instructions on how to change the factory settings in a hurry, they can be found in one of the last posts here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/whitfield-profile-20-problem.141690/page-2

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted.

 

[Lake Girl]

Thanks Stovensen ... I was wondering about the igniter when I asked how old the stove was Always better to have info from someone who has the same brand stove as they all have their quirks in how they run...

 

[z1robbie]

Stovensen,
I forgot to mention the previous owner replaced the igniter. I have the stove in a cold location, my porch. Maybe the problem. I will move it inside and try again although I don't want my house filled with smoke. I would like to try it long term anyway as the weather will be more moderate this week . Will break freezing for the first time in a week tomorrow.
Is it normal to fill the fire pot completely before ignition?
I have enclosed the start up strategy outlined in the manual (Profile 20) I have a profile 20II. It is different than I have outlined above.
I will check the resistance and clean the igniter and warm the porch up and try the start up again.
As to Lake Girl's question of the stoves age, it is not on the hopper sticker like the other Whit's. Woodstoves.com says the profile 20 was made from 2000 to 2002. Not sure about Profile 20II. Lennox bought them about this time.
The stove is very clean and does not seem to have excessive use.
I read some of your other posts and you mention your stove is 220 V. Is that 2 phase like here, At 220 it is definatly more dangerous than the 110 single phase we use here.
Thanks for your help, it seems like a good little stove. tight to work on though.

 

[Stovensen]

Stovensen,
I forgot to mention the previous owner replaced the igniter.

Ok, then we may rule out the igniter element as being faulty, but the tube wherein the igniter element is mounted could be still be clugged.
Also check the condition of the rope gasket in the door... a leaking rope gasket will decrease the negative pressure in the fire box. The air flow trough the igniter tube will be highly influenced by a leaking door, and so will the overall burn characteristics of the stove.

I have the stove in a cold location, my porch. Maybe the problem.
Is it normal to fill the fire pot completely before ignition?

Dampness in the pellets etc. could certainly make it harder to light the pellets and - to a lesser degree - so could pellet quality.
According to the quote you posted from the manual, the feed rate is reduced 20% in the first minutes at start up, thus giving the fire time to stabilize, so it is hard to explain why the pot is overfilling.
You could try to light it manually with some fire starters. This should stabilize the fire much quicker. Actually I unplugged the igniter many years ago in my Whitfield. Works like a charm... stable fire almost immediately

I have enclosed the start up strategy outlined in the manual (Profile 20) I have a profile 20II. It is different than I have outlined above..

If you don't have the manual for the Profile 20-II, you can download it here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4tl8rmizg...ofile_Installation_Operation_775023M.pdf?dl=0

I read some of your other posts and you mention your stove is 220 V. Is that 2 phase like here, At 220 it is definatly more dangerous than the 110 single phase we use here.

Ok, so in the U.S. you have 110 Volt/60Hz between a single phase and neutral. 220 Volt/60 Hz between two phases. Here in Denmark ( and most of Europe ) we have 230 Volt/50Hz between a single phase and neutral. 400 Volts between two phases. Also the frequency of 50 Hertz should be more dangerous for the heart than 60 Hertz. I don't know why they have chosen a higher and more dangerous voltage. Maybe to save some copper? You know, higher voltage can transport the same wattage in thinner wires. Copper is a rather pricy metal.

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted

 

[z1robbie]

Stovensen,
I checked the resistance of the igniter @ 32 ohms, at 118 volts line voltage (measured at igniter connections without igniter )
that is 3.6amps.
At 4 ohms it would be 29.5amps on a a 6 amp fuse, that doesn't sound right.
You must have slipped the decimal point. 40 ohms ?

I changed the door gasket.
I am burning the best pellets i have found, 'Somersets' made from the sawdust of hardwood flooring. I had some last year that burned so clean the ash was as white and fine as snow,

According to the quote I posted from the manual
IS NOT the way this stove operates.

This stove is;

Room fan on high, combustion fan on
Auger continuous until bur pot is FULL.
Auger paused
Igniter on.
(POOF ! if half of pellets are not removed , smoke comes out air wash holes)
Auger on continuous (not a problem if fire is burning well)
pause in auger ( bed of coals builds up)
Room fan and auger normal operation at high med or low.
Auger on continuous

I could use starter.
the full pot represents a problem as I would like to sell the stove. I work construction and the Winter is slow. I could use the money. That seems like too much fuel to start A half a pot works well with or with out starter.

I would like to know if any other Profile 20-2's behave this way.

I will get pipe cleaners and clean the igniter with compressed air

Thanks again, you help is an act of generosity. We need more of those acts these days.

 

[z1robbie]

Stovensen,
220 single phase is dangerous. Higher voltages do give you smaller currents for the same wattage, only benefit is like you say smaller conductors, In commercial buildings we use 3 phase 480v 60 cycle with 277 on each phase to neutral for lighting. It grabs you and you can't let go.

.

 

[Stovensen]

Stovensen,
I checked the resistance of the igniter @ 32 ohms, at 118 volts line voltage (measured at igniter connections without igniter )
that is 3.6amps.
At 4 ohms it would be 29.5amps on a a 6 amp fuse, that doesn't sound right.
You must have slipped the decimal point. 40 ohms ?

Well, I actually wrote approximately 40 Ohm ( "app. 40 Ohm" ). Could you have read this as 4.0?. Anyways, 32 ohms in the cold state is perfect. When hot, the final resistance should be close to 40 ohms.
The igniter should have a nominal wattage of 380 watts.
Joule's law: P = U x I ( easy to remember when thinking of the French word for power: Puissance )
And, of course, Ohm's law: U = R x I

I changed the door gasket.
I am burning the best pellets i have found, 'Somersets' made from the sawdust of hardwood flooring. I had some last year that burned so clean the ash was as white and fine as snow,

Perfect!

According to the quote I posted from the manual
IS NOT the way this stove operates.

According to the manual for the Profile 20-II that I posted a link to, the operation at start up should be the exactly similar to the quote you posted in your #6 post, so something must be wrong with the control board
I have no "hands on" experience with the Profile stoves, so let's hope some fellow Profile owners will chime in to clarify things. I know that moderator Bioburner has a Profile 20 in his workshop.
A new control board is pricy. David in Ontario, Canada has a repair service for Whitfield controls. His price is app. $100 for a standard repair.
Link to David's repair service:
(broken link removed to http://www.kijiji.ca/v-heater-humidifier-dehumidifier/peterborough/whitfield-advantage-ii-t-iii-plus-control-board-repair-service/265783976)

 

[z1robbie]

Stovensen,
All is well and the little Whit is heating my 900 sq. ft.(+(-)100 sq.. m?) home at 32F(0 C.) average day time outside temp. About 60 lb. a day consumption. Not much colder at night. So I thought it would be a good time to test it on a long run. 70F front and 68 at back of house inside average.

I brought it inside and it easily adapted to my vent with one additional pipe. The start up is gentle and not too slow at all, it will probably run on a stat.
I would guess all the problems I had were my doing. I misread your post(40 ohms) and in a different place the manual says there is a 2 1/2 minute feed at start:


Initial Start-Up / Empty Hopper or Feed chute:


During an initial start-up, or in the case where the hopper has run out
of fuel, it will be necessary to prime the auger feed system. The control board is set to deliver fuel for approximately 2-1/2 minutes during startup, which, with a fully primed auger, will provide the appropriate amount of fuel for ignition.

I am learning, this gave me some more pellet experience. The little stove is different from my US 6039 in many ways. Aside from the fireworks of the ashes flying out of the pot I have no complaints with the stove. It has run for about two days continuously without fail. I have the damper at the factory setting ,I was thinking the grate would accumulate some ash and slow the airflow. I will dampen it down later today after it burns a while longer. My buddy lets his Advantage II accumulate a little ash in the pot so I was trying that first. I try to keep the big stove hot to keep the burn clean on the 3 of 9 heat setting ( About 60 lb. a day) Slightly lower than full room blower on feed rate 3 auto blower. The little stove stays hot and I need to keep it cool with high blower. It doesn't burn as clean (coarse ash due to incomplete burning of flying ash) and I suspect on the comparable heat settings above my vent pipes are warmer with the Whit. Will experiment some more.
It is interesting the lowest setting on this stove compares with the lowest setting on the US that gives me a clean burn. I have heard it is hard to get a clean burn at low fire, seems to be true(less than 3 on US). The Whit burns quite well on low.(1 of 3)

I didn't mean to write a novel.
Thanks again Stovensen .

 

[z1robbie]

Stovensen wrote:

Joule's law: P = U x I ( easy to remember when thinking of the French word for power: Puissance )
And, of course, Ohm's law: U = R x I
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in America it is: P=I x E
Where P= Power in Watts
I= Currents in Amps
E=voltage in volts
PIE
We used a "PIE" chart to calculate the different values. I had not heard it as Joules law in my 4 years of electronics. It has been a while. I did know who Joule was however.
and
E=I x R for Ohms law
where R=resistance in ohms

 

[Stovensen]

Stovensen,
All is well and the little Whit is heating my 900 sq. ft.(+(-)100 sq.. m?) home at 32F(0 C.) average day time outside temp. About 60 lb. a day consumption. Not much colder at night. So I thought it would be a good time to test it on a long run. 70F front and 68 at back of house inside average.

I brought it inside and it easily adapted to my vent with one additional pipe. The start up is gentle and not too slow at all, it will probably run on a stat.
I would guess all the problems I had were my doing.

Glad to hear that things are progressing with the Profile. Yes, it does take some time and tweeking to find a stoves "sweet spot".
I understand that you want to sell it. In the sales situation it is your luck that it is the upgraded Profile 20-II and not the 20-I. This should give you a better Price. Here's some relevant info on what the upgrade was about:

Good luck selling the stove.

 

[Stovensen]

Stovensen wrote:

Joule's law: P = U x I ( easy to remember when thinking of the French word for power: Puissance )
And, of course, Ohm's law: U = R x I
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in America it is: P=I x E
Where P= Power in Watts
I= Currents in Amps
E=voltage in volts
PIE
We used a "PIE" chart to calculate the different values. I had not heard it as Joules law in my 4 years of electronics. It has been a while. I did know who Joule was however.
and
E=I x R for Ohms law
where R=resistance in ohms

This is just another example of the "Babylonian Confusion of Tongues"

Here's some information that hopefully will make us less confused on Ohm's law and Joule's law: