whole house surge protectors

[jeanw]

Relative recently lost use of her washer during an elec surge or brownout or what ever its called....
I remember years ago someone put on a meter mounted whole house surge protector....
on our former home.
I believed it was similar to this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meter-Mount...387143?hash=item43fbaf6e87:g:2isAAOSwDNdVt8JX

Now in this house we notice occ the fridge will act up or can hear air cleaner slow down etc...
so I have been unpluging my nice European washer...Like I did back in older home.
well I urged Hubby to call local Rural electric today. They said they dont do that... Hump....

suggested instead the breaker space be taken up by a panel mounted unit like this

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...Takes-2-Load-Center-Spaces-QO2175SB/100202111
Our relatives who were electricians but recently died... Hubby ordinarily would have talked to them for advice
I saw discussion on this forum for 2012....
Okay experts out there please advise...... we are interested and the relative is too for her home
thanks all

 

[woodgeek]

When I upgraded my load center to 200A in 2008, my guy put one of those 2 breaker slots whole house surge suppressors in.

this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-15-Amp-Type-BR-Double-Pole-Surge-Arrester-BRSURGE/205448789

A couple years ago, we had a very big surge (storm/transformer explosion) in which I saw and heard my wall outlets arcing. They are actually designed to do that (!) at 600V as a last ditch surge suppression.

After the fact, the guy in my breaker box was toast, his little LED was out, and the there was a soot mark inside the breaker door. Since replaced.

I had no obvious electronics damage in my house, but I had a control board on my HPWH go bad a couple months later...

My neighbor without the SS had no problem either, but my unit might have helped him.

So, I'm rambling. I still don't worry much about surges, since outlet arcing limits things a lot. I wouldn't spend a bundle on a fancy whole house system, but the little guy in the box is cheap insurance. I was just chatting with a guy who had a surge from a storm do >$2k damage to appliances in his house.

 

[Don2222]

Great info WoodGeek!
I got the surge breakers too and still use a good Tripp Lite Isoblok on the wood pellet stoves and a power cleaner on the big Flat screen and 7,2 surround system Also 2 current meters on the circuit panel to keep an eye on the juice!

Pic 1 - Circuit Panel with 2 Surge protectors and generator slide switch and breaker
Pic 2 - Current monitors
Pic 3 - Tripp Lite Isoblok surge protector for pellet stoves for extra protection!
Note; Only surge protectors that check outlet house wiring for proper grounding and proper phasing, another hidden electrical problem that can cause damage to pellet stove control panels and sensitive electronic devices
Pic 4 - TV & Audio system power cleaner and voltage monitor. See 118 VAC in Pic. If less than 115 VAC or greater than 125 VAC damage can occur!

 

[jeanw]

woodgeek THANK YOU youre not rambling. great reply too... Unfortunately dont have room in box but Hubby will remove some of the 220 wall electic heater circuits. I ordered it last night the brekers from SD older box
They were here when we moved in. I assume the original owners used them till they had the (poor job of holing out a space for looks like some Jack legs did) the propane outdoor combo unit...installed
we only used a few times...At least we have a full prpane tank and found out the owner bought and not leased Propane tank...
.we . Only really used the AC part. Cause Hubby (genius most of the time) is a Master of Fire
some people we met have natural gas wells... wow envious of that ..too bad the owners didnt drill for that.....too....
so much jury rigging was done in this house.. electical and plumbing and building ways.....
I know WE arent supp to speak ILL of the DEAD.....
They even had the electrical panel in the bedroom. RAH and electical pole right outside the main bedroom window. Cheapskate construction..
Now do you have those ARC circuits I read about years ago instead of GFI breakers?
Don2222 where does that Monitors go ?PIC 2 were they installed with new box? wired to main box?
DONT YALL HATE THE SMART METERS????? stealing our electrcity and frying our brains.....
supp to be caves under these areas. Too bad couldnt tap into those for heat
Saw on "Farm Show" that people are using their wells for geothermal....
thank yall geniuses and kind sirs

 

[woodgeek]

If you can't make room by getting rid of unneeded circuits, you can buy 'cheater' breakers that have 2 circuits per 1" slot. And get an extra slot for each you put in.

Like this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...-Pole-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-BR2020/100153768

Assuming one of you or an electrician is ok swapping around circuits in your box, which it sounds like.

Not all breaker boxes can use this sort of thing, and then there is a limit on the number you can install. Usually the limit is written on the label inside the door, or you can google the part number for your box, or ask an electrician. If you can find something like this that is compatible with your box, that is a clue that they're not allowed in it.

We had some wacky DIY wiring here when we moved in...a couple 50' romex lines run outside the house, running in through a garage window near the breaker box, and then through the wall on the other side of the house. These live wires were not secured properly, so they fell on the ground and got tangled up in vines and bushes near the foundation. Cut them once while trimming a bush. Memories. They're gone now, replaced by lines snaked through the interior.

 

[Don2222]

Hello
The monitors can be installed outside any electrical box new or old. ;-)
$20 bucks each direct from China!

See pic

 

[jeanw]

Hello
The monitors can be installed outside any electrical box new or old. ;-)
$20 bucks each direct from China!

See pic

Thanks but what exactly do they monitor ? Ive never seen so much around an electrical panel. But a neat job though.
I recognize defintely the phone line and filter. Course Ive only seen a few in my time> LOL Im sure Hubby has seen many more
Dang I hate they he has to move around circuits... Cause the first circuits on our box is the Stove second onethe basement stove... Course most of it was done before we moved in.. Hubby added several since we hve been here
Yeah we knew about the slim circuits. He put several in our former home to make room for more stuff
hem ight end up putting some slim ones in
I assume they have to go on the right side of box?
Local electrical suppy house suggested lightning arrestor. yall got that too?
WE are upset cause the Good for nuttin elec coop doesnt want us to mess with THEIR meter.Hate Smart meters and Smart appliances... They dont ask just install the blankety blank things
thanks

 

[woodgeek]

There's no downside to the slim breakers. If they are allowed by the manufacturer, they are rated safe to use, and an easy way to make room for the SS. Where they go varies....I have seen them limited to just to the top or bottom few slots, never to one side or the other.

I don't have a lightning arrestor. Or arc-protection outlets. I just recently swapped in GFI outlets to all the places currently required (in new construction), baths, kitchen, garage and outdoors.

 

[Babaganoosh]

I don't see how something that small could help. Electricity is a strange beast. It does weird things at times.

My parents house took a direct lightning hit 2 years ago. The damage was severe and also quite amazing. It blew shingles 50 feet straight into the air (they were hanging in a tree), started a smoldering fire in the attic, blew out and cracked some of the roof trusses in the garage (the quick pressure increase in the garage made the garage area like a bomb) blew out the garage windows, killed an Xbox but not the tv is was attached to. Although it killed the hdmi port that the Xbox was using in the tv. Ruined the garage door opener. Hole in the roof too. Yet things 20 feet away weren't damaged at all. Oh and it blew out the transfer switch for the whole house generator.

 

[blades]

When that blue ball of fire comes rumbling through ain't much that stands in it's way to get to opposite polarity. Surge suppressors under those circumstances just become one large melted glob.

 

[kennyp2339]

While a surge protector will help incase of a street side phase to ground fault it will not help with low voltage (brown outs) to correct a brown out either (2) things will have to occur, (1) a call to your utility company (easiest method) they may have a bad regulator or cap bank, or the xfmr street side is over loaded / past its life span.
(2) install a internal cap bank to reduce kvars and improve your power factor to give a steady clean voltage.

 

[jeanw]

While a surge protector will help incase of a street side phase to ground fault it will not help with low voltage (brown outs) to correct a brown out either (2) things will have to occur, (1) a call to your utility company (easiest method) they may have a bad regulator or cap bank, or the xfmr street side is over loaded / past its life span.

(2) install a internal cap bank to reduce kvars and improve your power factor to give a steady clean voltage.

kenny what are the above internal cap bank? is it something we do or (they think king of the hill) Power Company?
Or ELEC.service was just last year or so changed from aerial to buried. At our expense. Plus they did a lot of stuff up the hill too.. they left the poles for us, several from across the street too. Hubby made steps out of some of them for the "girls" Like I mentioned he is a genius... most times

Where they go varies....I have seen them limited to just to the top or bottom few slots, never to one side or the other.

Woodgeek I was referring to the surge protectors not the slim circuits
Oh just wish we could pack up and leave this place and someone take over.. My 'girls" and all could stay.
we have invested so much already. We be lucky to get what we even paid for this place.... It would have to be "as is" sale again...
Just wish we never showed up for the closing or Hubby would have checked better or came to his senses and not even considered another home.. Believe me he regrets it everyday..the neighbors prob be glad to cause they prob tired of hearing us "cursing this place"
thanks yall

 

[kennyp2339]

Hubby made steps out of some of them for the "girls" Like I mentioned he is a genius... most times

Hmmm, new underground service, ask your hubby what size wire was installed, and how far of a run, then starting from the transformer pole how far that pole to the underground riser pole and the size of the overhead secondary wire, I will also need the size of the transformer. If I get that info I will figure your voltage drop and flicker percentages.

 

[woodgeek]

Surge suppressors are to protect you from grid malfunctions, not direct lightning strikes.

 

[Babaganoosh]

Surge suppressors are to protect you from grid malfunctions, not direct lightning strikes.

Well it is a surge... lol

 

[stoveliker]

Good plug in surge protectors also have in their warranty that they replace damaged equipment.
(And Im sorry I don't know anything about whole house ones.)

 

[NorMi]

There are two primary types. MOV (metal oxide varistor) and spark gap style arrestors. The MOV's react much faster, and the spark gaps can take higher impulse currents. In each case, you need a grounding system that can dissipate the surge loads effectively, and catching it at the panel usually gets you a better path to ground. Buried ground laterals will dissipate the energy much better than vertical ground rods as well. You can get hybrid devices that have both protection types. https://www.lsp-international.com/ac-surge-protective-device-t1-t2-25ka/ as one example

MOV's lose effectiveness over time, and usually the effective lifespan is on the order of months to a few years at most before they are not trustworthy. There is no good way to test MOV's non-destructively that I know of. You can build or modify your own surge suppressors with MOV's that use lower voltage conduction cut ins, most of the commercial stuff won't cut in until something like 400V, this is an effort to make the MOV last longer, and to not exhibit problems or start fires when they inevitably start to fail. Ideally you want to cut in a low as possible to protect expensive equipment, but then you have to replace even more frequently. If your plug in surge protector is ten years old, you don't have a surge protector, you have a strip of outlets on a switch with some LED lights in it.

I would consider the warranties like no more than a pat on the back and a handshake with a knowing nod from a slick salesman.

 

[jsmith]

Lately, I have had several inquiries about whole house surge protectors.
Over the years I've installed a few but never really knew or cared how effective they are

I would like to get some of the opinions of the forum on them.

- Do they work?
- Is there a brand or model that's proven to be better than any other.
-Etc.

I see that some make claims that they will reimburse the user for damaged electronics in the event of an incident. That I find hard to believe simply because there are so many variables that could be at play.

Any thoughts appreciated.

I am an electrical engineer and I have spent my career designing utility, industrial, and commercial power systems. Most large power systems do employ surge arrestors because they reduce the risk of over voltages damaging both the power system and the utilization equipment. Over voltage events can be predicted in aggregate using statistics (average number of times per year in the UK that one kilometer of 11kV distribution circuit will experience an over voltage) , but we cannot predict the details of a specific event with any level of certainty at all (how long until the next over voltage at my house, how large with that next over voltage be, etc.) Specifying arrestors to protect a power system requires statistical data for the location as well as a preference of what percentage of typical overvoltage events we will protect against. It’s not practical or cost effective to install equipment that will protect from 99.999% of overvoltages, but we can protect over 99%.

Most people that apply surge protection in residences do not understand the statistical side of overvoltage events and overvoltage protection - to many either a surge protector either works or it doesn’t work, which is not a correct interpretation of the physics and randomness of lightning phenomena.

I will attempt to answer your questions, understanding that there are many statistical shades of grey involved with the level of protection provided.

Q: Do they work?
A: Yes, surge protectors from electrical distribution equipment vendors that have been tested to IEC, UL, or IEEE standards do work to reduce the likelihood and magnitude of power system damage due to overvoltage events.

Q: Is there a brand or model that’s proven to be better or is preferred?
A: Almost all surge arrestors produced for 50 or 60 Hz power systems in the last few decades are “gapless” metal oxide varistor (MOV) type arrestors. The zinc oxide compound that makes up the MOVs is very similar across all manufacturers. For the voltage ratings used in a residence there may be a few dozen brands on the market but they are only manufactured by a few companies, they go through the same tests, but they are marketed under different names, different form factors, and with different ratings. Purchase a unit that has been certified/listed by the local testing agency, which should be UL or Enertek/ETL in the US. Some models will list the surge current rating, which is derived from the cross-sectional area of the MOV device. More area means more current can pass through the MOV with the same level of voltage protection. Clamping voltage is another rating, although most residential devices will have very nearly the same clamping voltage rating so this is probably not useful for comparison. An arrestor energy rating in Joules is also provided on some arrestors, but this can be deceiving. For a given surge current, a device with less protection (higher clamping voltage) will dissipate more Joules of energy during the surge event. A higher Joule rating may not be meaningful if it accompanies a higher clamping voltage. For the same clamping voltage and same surge current rating, a higher joule rating may indicate the MOV has more thermal mass, which is useful.

Spark gap type arrestors are used for high frequency protection today but are rarely used on power systems. The poster above indicates correctly that spark gaps can handle more restrikes than MOVs before they become thermally damaged, however current industry standards for MOV-based arrestors take into account the typical frequency of lightning strikes, the thermal mass, surface area, and cooling time of the arrestor as part of the IEEE standards that govern the product design and testing. In practice, when MOV arrestors are applied in accordance with IEEE C62.22 they very rarely fail from thermal endurance (too many operations too close together). The most common failure modes are from water ingress, mechanical/accessory problems, or misapplication. Arrestors’ typical life is measured in decades. At 20 years in service some users start to test the arrestors with a DC hipot or Megger to verify they will still work correctly. For inexpensive arrestors it may cost the same to replace them instead of testing them. Any surge arrestor that only lasts a few months or a few years was likely misapplied or was not built and tested to industry standards.

 

[NorMi]

Damn, good info The reason you often hear that surge suppressors in consumer use should be replaced is due to the gap between that statistical probability in aggregate and the complete unknown of how many joules of dissipation and for what duration in us have been across any individual MOV based suppressor in the home/office/shop. You can test the dielectric strength meets spec of a 20 year old MOV on a megger, but it does not tell you anything about how many joules of suppression it is still capable of, or how many joules it has dissipated in overvoltages to date. It's a pass/fail test. In home audio, computers, ham radio, which is more what I'm familiar with, we just replace the MOV's on a schedule for sensitive and expensive equipment since they are literally dirt cheap components, usually get a handful for less than a buck from a reputable brand, meanwhile they are protecting radios and computers worth thousands...

I've heard about these too, but I know nothing about them: https://www.ign.com/articles/2007/07/20/zerosurge-tsc-power-filter-review It sounds like an intriguing concept, it looks it uses like a filter network for surge suppression, an engineer could probably weigh in on these better than your average audiophiles and computer nerds which seem to be the target audience for that type... (they are $$$$!)

 

[woodgeek]

Nice post @jsmith. Close to my understanding of the matter, but explained better than I could have. I get MOVs, and think that they have a shelf life (that is VERY LONG), a max surge current on short time scales (limited by material factors other than heating, like shock and magnetic stress), and a thermal limit (for repeated or longer duration surges).

But as you said, there are many different kinds of surges, rare giant ones, less rare big ones, and a lot of tiny ones. When you are buying a SS you are drawing a line in the sand, and saying that you are covering the large number of small events, while admitting that there will always be a surge you can't absorb. Zap!

I have also read that surge damage to MOVs is cumulative (as implied by @NorMi), so service life in some 'surgey' locations might be short. Since the breaker box mounted MOVs have an 'in service' LED, (which I have never seen in a plug in 'power strip'), I figured if the LED goes out in 6-12 mos of service, I would upsize my capacity (e.g. to a larger MOV unit that mounts beside the BB in its own sub-box, and cost 3X as much). But if that LED stays lit for years and years, then it's ok, and the cheapest solution was suitable.

For the record, I don't put much stock in those SS in plug in outlet strips, and don't have an array of such on all my equipment in my house. I just have the little dude in the breaker box, and keep an eye on his LED. As I said upthread I had my breaker SS take a hit after 7 years in service, including a scorch mark inside the panel door (!), and the LED on SS#1 was out forever. RIP. For $50 and 5 minutes effort the replacement was in. 6 years after that, the light on SS#2 is still on. IMO an 'elegant sufficiency', for a random statistical problem.

BTW, my GF lives in an area with dirty power, and was stressed about it, so I recently installed one of these in her BB and she is happy.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't have the knowledge of those above, but I can tell that I worked for more than a decade in a national laboratory in an area with frequent outages and surges. My million dollars lab equipment, AND the older (vacuum tube) irreplaceable stuff that were behind surge protector outlet strips survived, whereas the other stuff did often not.

Is it the best? Possibly not. Does it help, absolutely.

 

[NorMi]

I think it's still worthwhile to use the surge strips at the outlet too where your sensitive equipment is, it gives more paths to ground, more total kVA of surge capacity in aggregate as long as your ground pathway isn't swamped, and the inductance from the conductors on the run should give them a little more time to react to the slower rise time after the panel surge protector takes its bite out of it. The more short circuit paths to ground in your neighborhood or house, the better chances you should stand to survive a spike I would think.

 

[woodgeek]

I think it's still worthwhile to use the surge strips at the outlet too where your sensitive equipment is, it gives more paths to ground, more total kVA of surge capacity in aggregate as long as your ground pathway isn't swamped, and the inductance from the conductors on the run should give them a little more time to react to the slower rise time after the panel surge protector takes its bite out of it. The more short circuit paths to ground in your neighborhood or house, the better chances you should stand to survive a spike I would think.

Totally agree. In my house all the $$$ equipment is either hard wired, or like this laptop, running off a disposable DC power supply.

 

[Bad LP]

I have them in my panels with lightning arrestors. I’ll get the brands later. These are the less expensive option. I was getting crazy numbers on whole house and that was just the box!! I do my own wiring.

House was hit by lightning 2X. BAD. Nothing after putting these in.

 

[Bad LP]

Here are the devices and you can see one of my surge protectors is needing replacement so I’ll replace the one in the other panel as it had no protection or the lamps burnt out.
No need to take chances IMO