Smoke problems with Heritage Woodstove

[Dottie]

I am having a real problem with my wood stove, it won't catch and draw correctly and is smoking like crazy. l cleaned the chimney this fall had two fires without any problems. When I lit the fire the next time the the stove started smoking so badly that all the smoke detectors went off. It occurred to me then that I hadn't cleaned out the stove pipes connected to the stove on the inside of the house so I took them apart and cleaned them and also where they connected to the stove clean out outside.

When I started a fire it smoked a little around the connections of the pipe and then seemed to catch alright and burn alright. I didn't start another fire until this morning and it did the same thing, it doesn't want to draw and smoke pours out of the open side door, around the connections in the pipe and gathers in the clean out door outside. The smoke alarms all went off and right now I sitting here next to an open window.

I really need some advice on what might be wrong and how to correct it. We seem to only have two choices around here in stove installers and chimney sweeps and I have used them both. The first one lined a furnace in my old house and he was unreliable, sloppy, and expensive.

The other one I thought was just wonderful when he installed my stove in in old house, and although he was expensive, he was reliable, efficient, and knowledgeable. I was happy and the problem occurred when he stopped working for himself and started working for a hardware store. He moved my stove to my new house in the country and in the process broke my baffle when cleaning out the chimney. In addition to charging me $600 to move the stove he tried to charge me $277 to install a new baffle that he had broken. Well, I was of course upset about that so ordered one and installed it myself in about 5 minutes and have not called them since. The last four years have cleaned the chimney with a purchased brush to fit the chimney with the help of my neighbors and my grandson and haven't had any problems until this year.

As we only seem to have these two choices around here for wood stove and chimneys, I would like to try and do something myself if possible. I would appreciate it if anyone has any idea of what is causing this problem and how I might correct it to let me know. I would love to try before I have to deal with either of these two companies again. I really hate to cold call someone and be stuck with shoddy service, but it's even worse if you have to call someone that you know is awful beforehand.

I know that this is sort of long and complaining, but I'm really not grumpy and demanding, I just want someone who knows what they are doing and does it correctly. Is that unreasonable?

Thanks in advance for reading this and any advice you have.

Dottie

 

[DAKSY]

How cold was the outside temperature when you tried to fire up your stove?
Warmer outside temperatures cause sluggish draft at fire start-ups. One of the
BEST ways to mitigate this problem is to try a TOP-DOWN start. Google it.
You will find Youtube videos as well. Give it a shot & report back.

 

[begreen]

What is the flue system like? Is it straight up or are there a couple 90 deg turns in the smoke path to direct it to an outside chimney? Do you know how tall the flue system is from top to stove?

Here's a link to the top down starting video. It's the third one down, Efficient Wood Stove Operation:
http://www.woodheat.org/wood-heat-videos.html

 

[sean b]

It's 65 F right now in central PA so I'm thinking it's even warmer in Virginia? My guess is it's just not cold enough to create a sufficient draft.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah it is 63 and cloudy here today. Absolutely the worst case for getting draft going in a stove. Even mine that drafts like a vacuum cleaner.

 

[kennyp2339]

Make sure the baffle board is pushed all the way to the back of the stove, also like other posters have stated, temps outside are a little to warm to get a good draft.

 

[Dottie]

Thank you all for answering. I think it was about 52 degrees or so when I started the fire this morning. After it finally got going after an hour or so it seemed ok, but it has never done this before this year. The chimney isn't all that tall and it's a ceramic one (I think), not lined metal, but it's not over 8 years old. The metal stove pipe part of the set-up goes straight up from the top of the stove, maybe 2 1/2 feet then has a bending connector then maybe a foot into the rock covered wall. I can't tell exactly, but I don't think that the top of the chimney is taller than 16 feet or so.

My old stove set up was a connection from the back of the stove into a fireplace, it had a double insulated metal lined chimney, was very tall, not insulated, had old window and it never got any creosote. This house and the chimney is much shorter than my old tall house. It's much easier to heat with low ceilings, replacement windows, lots of insulation and it gets lots of creosote.

In any event, it had been burning perfectly, as far as I know, except for creosote buildup for the past four years and didn't smoke until this year. I think I must have started a fire before when the weather was not especially cold just to knock the chill off, but I'll pay more attention to that part of the equation. It is burning alright now that it's caught at 250 by the thermometer on top of the stove, and the damper has been wide open all day. Although it's not smoking like it was, it seems that more smoke than usually is coming out of the side door when it's opened to put more wood in and that it's not getting as hot as it should. The baffle doesn't appear to be out of place (the back is resting toward the back) and it's not broken.

Another thing I noticed is that even when the draft is opened all the way, or the bottom ash draw is opened it's not getting a "roaring" fire like it usually does. It's just slowing burning along. Usually when the side door or the ash pan door is open it's will burn really hot and roars like a blow torch. I guess that all this means that for some reason it's not getting a good draft going. I have a chimney cap on and we pushed the brush all the way up and down and the pipes are clean or I'd think that something got stuck in there.

I never noticed that it smoked, didn't draft or anything when if was warmish outside, but I'll keep that in mind when I light it. There's not anything else that could be blocked inside the stove is there? I took the pipes out and cleaned them and vacuumed the ash in the top where the pipes connect, is there anything in this stove that can be blocked that I missed, maybe to the ash drawer to somewhere else. I never use the ash drawer at all after the first year, and just empty the ashes from the side door.

Thanks again.

Dottie

 

[begreen]

If there is a screen on the top of the chimney it can get plugged. This is common if newspaper is frequently used and the ash gets sucked up the chimney and trapped by the screen.
That said it could just be mild weather and maybe a low pressure system in the area. If so the stove should be fine for starting as outside temps decline. There is a possibility that the wood is not fully seasoned which will compound this issue.

FYI - Never use the ash pan door to start a fire. That blow torch fire can crack the base of the stove which can make for a very expensive repair.

 

[Dottie]

Ok, I'll keep an eye on the temperature and hope that that solves the problem. I really enjoy my wood stove and love watching the flames. I don't even mind carrying the wood in or the ashed out in the winter.

 

[kennyp2339]

Also you want to look into changing the 90deg bend to 2 45deg bends, this helps with reducing a cyclone effect of the smoke from a hard 90, its not a fix all answer but it may help enough to get you by when temps are slightly on the warm side

 

[Smoked]

55 and rainy, I am not even trying tonight If the tile is larger diameter than the stove pipe, that hurts the draft too but if this house and install has been ok previously in similar weather, then like others have said, it could be the cap/mesh at the top.

 

[Woody Stover]

Also you want to look into changing the 90deg bend to 2 45deg bends, this helps with reducing a cyclone effect of the smoke from a hard 90, its not a fix all answer but it may help enough to get you by when temps are slightly on the warm side

Agreed; With a shorter stack, I would go to 45s in place of the 90s. I just have one 90, in the tee right behind the rear-vented stove, so it doesn't really count as an 'official' 90...then it's pretty much straight up the liner inside of the masonry chimney, about 16'. I lit a small fire tonight (one of my dogs is a little under the weather,) with the outside temp about 60°. First I tried to burn a couple pieces of newspaper in the box to heat up the flue but that wasn't enough. I have a heat gun so I opened the bypass and blew heat up the flue for a few minutes and that was enough to establish sufficient draft to get the fire going. You could do the same with a hair dryer...might take a little longer, though. The fact that you don't have a liner all the way up is hurting your draft as well. How much depends on how big the chimney liner is...an 8" x 8" is better than an 11" x 11", obviously.

 

[Rossco]

Sounds like you have positive vs negative air pressure problems.

If smoke is being forced into your home through the stove door and pipe connections.

Can you feel a draft if air coming down through the chimney pipe?

 

[begreen]

Negative pressure generally refers to the home environment, not the interior of the stove.

 

[Rossco]

Negative pressure generally refers to the home environment, not the interior of the stove.

Yeah for sure but if the smoke is being pushed into the house then something is pushing it back. Positive external pressure.

If the pressure is equal between the envelops then it should start to draft up. The problem seems to go away once the heat overcomes the difference and causes the flue to draft.

Just a theory

 

[Dottie]

Hello,

Thank you all for taking your time to help and give your suggestions and advice. I appreciate it.

Right now I'm waiting until I have a sufficiently cold day to try it out again. I don't know that I can make the bend in another configuration as the stove is where it is and the hole it goes in is where it is and there doesn't look like another way to do it. The pipe that goes straight up from the top of the stove is 16 inches, there is a elbow that bends, then it goes maybe a distance of 10 inches then into the wall. I guess if it still smokes I'll try and figure it out. As far as heating the stove to cause a draft I guess I'd have to use a heat gun not a hair dryer, strange I know, but I'm just that kind of woman.

As for the flue size I'm not sure but the wire brush that fits it snugly looks like it would be for an 8 inch flue, I did know when I bought the brush. The chimney cap is solid stainless at the top, I had the mesh kind before and I remember that it did get clogged up and smoked one time at the other house.

One thing that is a bit strange that maybe I'll add into the mix, I noticed that when I went out to check the clean out on the outside of the house the next day after having a fire all day the day before that there was about 1 1/2 cups of fairly large chunks of creosote in the clean out. I don't know where that came from after cleaning out the chimney until no more creosote fell down.

I didn't really realize that stoves were so fiddly about the weather and it made me wonder how everyone cooked with wood stoves all summer long? I guess that they just had to keep them going all the time, that wouldn't be any fun at all. I thought that I would like to have one, but not if I had to cook on it in our hot and humid Virginia summers.

Do you all think that maybe I should go to the expense of having the chimney relined with the insulated pipe? I hate to go to the expense it it wouldn't really solve the creosote problem and help the draft. I did it before in my old house because it was an old house with a brick chimney that went up through the attic and it was a safety issue. It didn't ever have any creosote buildup at all, but I don't know the reason behind that. I just know that it was very tall and that the house had a lot of drafts, when I burned the stove the hallway was like a wind tunnel (a little exaggeration, but it was very drafty).

Thanks again for your help.

Dottie

 

[Woody Stover]

If the chimney at your new place is on an outside wall (external masonry chimney,) that is going to hamper draft compared to an internal chimney that goes up through the middle of the house, as the external chimney will be cooler. In any case, an insulated stainless liner all the way up would certainly help. If it's a straight shot once it gets inside the tile liner, you could use 4' rigid chimney sections which may be cheaper than some of the heavy-duty flex liners. Lightweight flex liner would probably be cheapest but I would go with something better for the long haul, and be done with it.
In your last post you say your connector pipe only rises 16" before it turns, although you said 2.5' earlier. In most manuals I've seen, they want about 3' straight up, before any turns.
Another factor in chimney performance is going to be the quality of the fuel. It really needs to be split and stacked in the wind for a couple years (especially Oak or other dense woods) before it will be dry enough to start easily and pump heat up the chimney to create draft. Marginally dry wood won't work as well, as some of the heat is lost evaporating moisture from the wood.

 

[Dottie]

If the chimney at your new place is on an outside wall (external masonry chimney,) that is going to hamper draft compared to an internal chimney that goes up through the middle of the house, as the external chimney will be cooler. In any case, an insulated stainless liner all the way up would certainly help. If it's a straight shot once it gets inside the tile liner, you could use 4' rigid chimney sections which may be cheaper than some of the heavy-duty flex liners. Lightweight flex liner would probably be cheapest but I would go with something better for the long haul, and be done with it.
In your last post you say your connector pipe only rises 16" before it turns, although you said 2.5' earlier. In most manuals I've seen, they want about 3' straight up, before any turns.
Another factor in chimney performance is going to be the quality of the fuel. It really needs to be split and stacked in the wind for a couple years (especially Oak or other dense woods) before it will be dry enough to start easily and pump heat up the chimney to create draft. Marginally dry wood won't work as well, as some of the heat is lost evaporating moisture from the wood.

Hi,
Guess I'm a bad measurer. It's approximately 18 inches where the straight connection meets the bend which joins another connection into the wall. From the wall to the front of the stove pipe is about 19 inches. I'm uploading a picture also one of the chimney outside. The outside wall to gutter is about 8.5 feet and the chimney is about 4 1/2 feet taller, just guessing.

 

[Woody Stover]

Hard to tell from that angle but it looks like the top of the chimney isn't as high as the top of the roof ridge. I'm no expert on this, but it may be possible that if the wind is coming from the other side of the ridge, draft could possibly be hampered. Make a mental note of wind speed and direction when the stove doesn't seem to be drafting as well. Where does the prevailing wind come from, in relation to the ridge?

 

[begreen]

Measurements are critical here. We need to know the measured distance from where the stove pipe enters the chimney to the cap. From the picture it looks like this could be less than 16ft, perhaps by several feet. Also, it looks like there is a 6" to 8" increaser going into the chimney. Is there no stainless liner in the chimney? If so, and the chimney throat is large, say 8x12, draft is going to be weak.

 

[Dottie]

Measurements are critical here. We need to know the measured distance from where the stove pipe enters the chimney to the cap. From the picture it looks like this could be less than 16ft, perhaps by several feet. Also, it looks like there is a 6" to 8" increaser going into the chimney. Is there no stainless liner in the chimney? If so, and the chimney throat is large, say 8x12, draft is going to be weak.

Well, I never had a head for heights and I doubt if I'll develop one after 70 years, so I can't get up there and measure. I chimney is taller than the roof ridge, but not by more that 2-3 ft. There is no stainless liner in this chimney, it's a fairly new chimney. but it has a ceramic liner. The stove pipes look to be 6 inches. The chimney itself can't be 16 feet high as the house at the gutter is 8.5 feet and the chimney above the roof is no more than 4.5 feet. It's been chilly enough the past few days for me to keep a small fire going in the stove and it's not been smoking like it was.

Thanks for your help.

Hard to tell from that angle but it looks like the top of the chimney isn't as high as the top of the roof ridge. I'm no expert on this, but it may be possible that if the wind is coming from the other side of the ridge, draft could possibly be hampered. Make a mental note of wind speed and direction when the stove doesn't seem to be drafting as well. Where does the prevailing wind come from, in relation to the ridge?

The top of the chimney is higher than the roof, but not by a whole lot, maybe 1-2 feet. I don't have a clue where the wind is blowing from as it's not been blowing enough to tell. Next time it starts up I'll try and see. The house is oriented sort of east to west, but not exactly.

Thanks.

Dottie

 

[begreen]

Let's guess the chimney is 12 ft up from the flue connection, plus the 18" off the stove would equal 13.5ft. The stove requires at least 13ft. of chimney so on paper this sounds close but the two 90 deg. turns in the smoke path slow the smoke down. So does the increase in pipe size. For better draft the stove will need a 6" stainless steel insulated liner in the exterior chimney and no increase in size a the chimney thimble.

 

[Dottie]

Let's guess the chimney is 12 ft up from the flue connection, plus the 18" off the stove would equal 13.5ft. The stove requires at least 13ft. of chimney so on paper this sounds close but the two 90 deg. turns in the smoke path slow the smoke down. So does the increase in pipe size. For better draft the stove will need a 6" stainless steel insulated liner in the exterior chimney and no increase in size a the chimney thimble.

I think what you are telling me is sort of what is probably the best thing. I just hate to spend so much money when the stove itself heats the house so well, mainly I suspect because the ceilings in this house are much lower than in my old house. This house is also very well insulated and has replacement windows, which my other house did not. I really hate to get either one of the two chimney re-liner/stove installer people that I had used before, but if I can't find anyone else I guess I'll have to. It seems wrong to me to hire someone you already have had a bad experience with, and certainly no incentive for them to do decent, honest work.

Although I think this chimney and stove set-up is safe, I've always been a little puzzled and somewhat concerned about the creosote buildup in the chimney in this house, when the other, older, drafty house with the very tall chimney than was lined with an insulated life-time guaranteed liner (I don't know the brand name), never had any buildup when cleaned out.

Thank you for taking the time to help with your insightful ideas.

 

[Smoked]

The taller insulated liner drafted better and likely made the stove run a little hotter and cleaner. Also, the smaller insulated surface of the liner heats up faster so it does not accumulate the creosote as much once it is hot. The larger tile liner takes longer to heat up so the hot gasses hitting the colder liner helps creosote formation. I also think the liner should be on your wish list! It least it is not 30 feet so it should not be terribly expensive. maybe look for a good sweep a little farther from home? http://www.csia.org/

 

[begreen]

I think what you are telling me is sort of what is probably the best thing. I just hate to spend so much money when the stove itself heats the house so well, mainly I suspect because the ceilings in this house are much lower than in my old house. This house is also very well insulated and has replacement windows, which my other house did not. I really hate to get either one of the two chimney re-liner/stove installer people that I had used before, but if I can't find anyone else I guess I'll have to. It seems wrong to me to hire someone you already have had a bad experience with, and certainly no incentive for them to do decent, honest work.

Although I think this chimney and stove set-up is safe, I've always been a little puzzled and somewhat concerned about the creosote buildup in the chimney in this house, when the other, older, drafty house with the very tall chimney than was lined with an insulated life-time guaranteed liner (I don't know the brand name), never had any buildup when cleaned out.

With dry wood and an insulated liner there should be little creosote buildup over the season. The current setup is slowing down and cooling the flue gases too much.
For a certified installer go to this website and type in your zipcode: www.csia.org