Wanna help me choose a soapstone or cast iron stove?

eclecticcottage · May 3, 2012

With the size of the house and need to heat the hot water, have you considered an outdoor wood boiler?

$1800 for a used stove? I paid about that for the Republic new (not including taxes, install and piping).

I get what you're saying about the blaze kings, but look at the new sirocco. It doesn't look like a BK.

begreen · May 3, 2012

Annalea said:
DH does understand, and no, we haven't yet. He has researched pretty well, and talked thoroughly with a preparedness expert who has heated water this way for years. (Wood stove water reservoir in winter, solar thermosiphon in summer.) But, as with most things, it all depends on current codes, stoves, etc.

What is a preparedness "expert" and what is that expert preparing for?

KaptJaq · May 4, 2012

begreen said:
What is a preparedness "expert" and what is that expert preparing for?

That might be a discussion for a different forum...

Armoured · May 4, 2012

Annalea said:
DH just reminded me that installing a water jacket on the stove is an absolute priority...

There are a lot of absolute priorities adding up here :rolleyes:

Since you're also building a new house and presumably the priorities for that house will be even more strict, it's probably more important to figure out which are really important in short and long term and which wins. The old engineering dilemma: you can have it good, you can have it fast, or you can have it cheap - pick two (maximum). (I guess you can have it pretty makes it even more complicated...)

We can weigh in a bit with some info and opinions but your choices matter more. Speaking personally, I'd downgrade the desire to get hot water from the stove for a couple of seasons, and focus on the longer term for off-grid hotwater in the new place; just sounds too complicated to try and perfect the hot water system off wood heat for what might only be a few years. Space and time sound like the premium at the current place. There are mixed versions, like you could get a stove that can boil water and use that for dishes, keep big pots of stew going for your family, whatever, to get there partway for the part of the year the sun won't do it.

But that's just an opinion on what I might prioritize first in your situation - only you and DH can decide.

raybonz · May 4, 2012

learningasigoalong said:
Welcome Annalea,

I'm new too and all I can say is wow. So many responses and so much help. Makes me wish I had come here before I got my stove (last October). I have a Jotul F3 in 750s/ft and use it to heat up one room upstairs too. Its cast iron and non cat. I have no complaints but we did not have a tough winter this year (so. NH) so I need to see how it does in a cold winter to be a better judge of stove vs. space. Above all else, listen to the pros here, you should probably shop for your wood supply while you decide on the stove. In my short time as a wood stove owner I can honestly say you can never have enough fire wood and the more seasoned the better.

Good Luck

Great comments on the wood supply! This is so important..

Ray

Obadiah · May 5, 2012

Greetings everyone, lots of great info!!
I've been following this thread and was surprised that no one threw this one out here. The Bakers Oven/Vermont Bun Baker is a very unique cookstove that seems to meet the criteria here.
Small footprint, good heating abilities, cooking abilities, boiler option for domestic hot water, this stove seems to a pretty good option.
Well built, efficient and easy to operate.
There seems to be alot of confusion out there concerning a few things, clearances and domestic hot water heating. We have made some YouTube's dealing with these issues that may be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WoodyChain/videos?query=reducing+clearances+to+combustibles
http://www.youtube.com/user/WoodyChain/videos?query=domestic+hot+water
We'll be posting an update to this this spring where we'll You Tube a customer who has actually has been heating their water with their Ironheart during the winter and the sun in the summer.

Woody

begreen · May 5, 2012

Good suggestion woody. Thanks for checking in. I didn't know the Baker's Bun had the water jacket option.

Obadiah · May 5, 2012

Always happy to help!

Annalea · May 5, 2012

Hi everyone . . . thanks for the continued comments.

Yeah, there are a lot of "absolute" requirements. Which ones *really* merit that title differ depending on who you ask: DH or me.

I really value all of the poking at possibilities and my comments, making me reassess things, and look at the situation from perspectives I hadn't yet considered. And thanks so much for the kindness and respect with which the poking has been done.

Being new, I'm not sure of the etiquette of replying to everyone's questions with individual posts, so I'll lump them all in here. (Btw, is there a way to "burn someone's ears", so they'll get a notification I've mentioned them in a post? My other favorite forum has that capability, so you don't have to reply to everyone that you want to notify of new info in a thread. Thought I'd ask.) K, here goes:

BrowningBAR: Thanks so much for taking the time to scout Craigslist for stoves for me. It's much appreciated! We'll be taking a trip out to Portland to Ikea in a month or two (cabinets, sinks, and a few things like that), and I'll make sure to search out there for stoves, as well, when the things we need from Ikea are in stock.

eclecticcottage: I'm not sure an outdoor boiler would work with the way we've got things set up . . . and I'm definitely sure DH wouldn't go for it. Fwiw, the space is so small that a stove sized up a notch (that still fits in the space) would put out enough heat that we'd be fine heating water and the space.

begreen: The aforementioned preparedness expert could also be termed a Self-Reliance expert. He has experience in designing, building, and consulting on self-reliant/self-sufficient residences, techniques and practices. We're not looking to be totally self-sufficient, but for peace of mind we really like to be as self-reliant as we reasonably can. (Our definition of "reasonably" probably differs with most, though. And so you can see, KaptJaq is right. Totally 'nuther forum material.)

Armoured: I completely agree. Your three (or four) priorities sound a lot like the Iron Triangle of software development: features, price & time. You can constrain any two, but try to constrain the third, and someone (usually the developer) will end up in the doghouse, every time. (You'll never guess what DH does for a living . . .) I'm going to show your comment to DH, and see what he thinks.

Woody: Thanks for the tip. I had seen the Vermont Bun Baker, and I really love it. If we were to really go high end with a stove, that would be it (water jacket included). The water jacket looks like it goes in the firebox, in the back. Is that correct? We're planning on having a thermosiphon system between the woodstove water jacket and the water heater (which will only kick on when the stove or solar system aren't heating the water sufficiently). The water heater is up on a seriously reinforced shelf about 40" from the floor.

If I've missed anyone, please pipe up. Today has been spent lying low, trying to not get sick (a day of prevention is worth a week of cure). I really need to get out and see some of the stoves I'm interested in, in person. I think that will help a ton, especially with the water jacket idea. We can make our own, if we can find a stove with a side flat enough to allow a decent amount of contact with a reservoir (whether mounted to the stove, or the floor).

Armoured · May 5, 2012

Annalea said:
Your three (or four) priorities sound a lot like the Iron Triangle of software development: features, price & time. You can constrain any two, but try to constrain the third, and someone (usually the developer) will end up in the doghouse, every time. (You'll never guess what DH does for a living . . .) I'm going to show your comment to DH, and see what he thinks.

I heard it originally from an engineer, but I think it's exactly the same idea in software; it also turns up in other fields, like economics (where it's called the impossible trinity, or sometimes even unholy trinity, and there actually is a parallel with religion, since the trinity in a sense is something that seems contradictory...but that truly is off-topic).

Anyway, take my comments on the domestic hot water with a grain of salt; I'm less familiar with the options there, and meant it more as an example of what I would (likely, personally) drop in the short term in favour of devoting resources for a longer-term solution for the new house. You and DH will have to make the decisions.

Unfortunately it's human nature we'll regret some of the compromises we make after the fact (even if they really were the best choice at the time). Sounds to me, though, like you'll both be busy enough to not dwell on them!

Obadiah · May 6, 2012

Yes your correct it does install in the lower part of the back of the firebox, in place of the firebrick that normally would be there. Hopefully you can see by the picture I included.
If you check out the YouTubes on Domestic Hot Water that I included in my previous post, I cover some different boiler options and how they can be installed outside of the firebox. That may be helpful.
We have lived off grid in NW Montana since 1999. We have used wind, solar and hydro as well as a generator to provide power. We've learned the hard way how to do some of this stuff, always glad to share what we've learned in hopes that folks can avoid the same mistakes. Bottomline, where there's a will, there's a way.....the trick is which is the right way......Being as self sufficient

as possible has always been my desire, so I can respect where your coming from. There is a certain satisfaction one gets from this kind of lifestyle, it is anything but easy, but the payoff is worth it.
You've come to the right place to find info, lots of down to earth folk willin to help....

granpajohn · May 6, 2012

Annalea said:
...the etiquette of replying ...

Etiquette?
What next? Stihl and Husky owners living together?
(OT joking. OK, that's enough; back to the original topic.)

begreen · May 6, 2012

Annalea said:
begreen: The aforementioned preparedness expert could also be termed a Self-Reliance expert. He has experience in designing, building, and consulting on self-reliant/self-sufficient residences, techniques and practices. We're not looking to be totally self-sufficient, but for peace of mind we really like to be as self-reliant as we reasonably can. (Our definition of "reasonably" probably differs with most, though. And so you can see, KaptJaq is right. Totally 'nuther forum material.)

Thanks for the clarification. You will find several folks here that have unplugged or have reduced their dependencies on the grid, big oil, etc..

Back to the stove, DH might enjoy reading John Gulland's adaptation of his Pacific Energy stove to hot water. John is something of a guru for woodheating and he is a strong advocate for independent living. I've posted an article on how to choose a woodstove for homesteading that you may enjoy reading.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-to-choose-a-woodstove.86602/

On his own site he has a wealth of info on renewables. Be sure to check his link (on right side of page) about his stove.
http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/whyrenewable.htm

firecracker_77 · May 6, 2012

I have a Heritage and a Woodstock gas stove. The Hearthstone is a better looking brand than the Woodstock. My Heritage does not have as long of a burn time as I would like. It would be nice to have someone in your household rekindle that fire every 5 hours if you want a decent bed of coals at all times.

firecracker_77 · May 6, 2012

firecracker_77 said:
I have a Heritage and a Woodstock gas stove. The Hearthstone is a better looking brand than the Woodstock. My Heritage does not have as long of a burn time as I would like. It would be nice to have someone in your household rekindle that fire every 5 hours if you want a decent bed of coals at all times.

Buy a used stove from someone who knew what they were doing when it comes to operating it and not abusing it. Even with high shipping costs, you should cut at least $1,000 off the price of a new stove.

rdust · May 6, 2012

With a space that small I wouldn't buy anything but a cat stove that can be burned slow and low. Keep a spare cat on the shelf and all your worries will go away. A space that small with 8 people in it won't have much heat demand, the heat being put off by it's occupants will almost be enough to keep it warm!

firecracker_77 · May 6, 2012

rdust said:
With a space that small I wouldn't buy anything but a cat stove that can be burned slow and low. Keep a spare cat on the shelf and all your worries will go away. A space that small with 8 people in it won't have much heat demand, the heat being put off by it's occupants will almost be enough to keep it warm!

That's a good point. 8 bodies do generate alot of warmth.

firefighterjake · May 7, 2012

granpajohn said:
Etiquette?
What next? Stihl and Husky owners living together?
(OT joking. OK, that's enough; back to the original topic.)

Some of my best friends use Stilhls.

MarkinNC · May 12, 2012

Have you hubby take a look at this. I suspect he will like this channel as well,

scotsman · May 12, 2012

Annalea, With regard to wood. An interim solution might be to locate a pallet manufacturer in your area. They usually make their pallets using hardwoods for durability. They will usually receive used pallets and use undamaged parts to make new ones. This invariably yields pieces that are perfect for woodstoves, is already dry and can allow you to get your "normal" wood supply in and drying while you enjoy good hardwood heat. I have found such a place and now have a 10 cord/week source for wood that is kiln dried and moisture levels below 6%. In fact, the fellows have agreed to cut the wood to my stove length and throw it into a 4 foot cube bin for me to come get when needed. So, far I've burned about two cords of this wood and have found it more satisfactory than split cordwood. (I do not USE 10 cords/week, but it's there if I needed it!)

A downside is that it will contain nails inside the wood, but, according to my stove's manufacturer, will not affect the operation of the stove or damage anything. I have a magnet that I pick up the nails with before I clean the stove. Works great.

I, too, looked at Hearthstone (the Equinox), but could not afford it (around here anyway, it's not very competitive, stove-wise!). After grilling many members (pun intended) here about the cat/non-cat issue and essentially doing what you're doing now, I made my choice and have been happy with it since. My first stove was under-sized for my place, but they took it back and sent me the larger version, which has done well.

Keep asking/analyzing and searching. If it exists, you'll get there. The people on this board cannot be beat for helpfulness, knowledge and patience. Lord knows, and they will tell you, I've tried some of 'em past limits! ROFL!

Good luck. You'll get there.

Mrs. Krabappel · May 12, 2012

BrotherBart said:
I am still trying to get my head around eight people in 700 sq. ft. !! Somebody gonna have to sleep ON the stove.

Insulate well and body heat and two candles will heat it to 10 below zero.

True that! We've a couple of hundred feet on that with only two. I do like that water idea. BB?

Best wishing on stove shopping!

BrotherBart · May 12, 2012

Most people that try to make water heaters out of their wood stove not only wreck the efficiency of the stove by sucking heat out of the firebox needed for a clean burn but also create a hand grenade in their house in the process.

Mrs. Krabappel · May 12, 2012

buzzkill

BrotherBart · May 12, 2012

~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
buzzkill

Don't worry. Somebody will come along and say they have been doing it since ought 3 and never had a problem. A lot of stoves in Europe heat water too. Never seem to make it here because they choke with the EPA tests. Kinda says something. And screwing up with pipes with high pressure in them will not only ruin your whole day, but your living room too.

I have thought about it for twenty years with the stoves in the basement. Thought about it, forgot about it and just let the electric water heater do what it does well.

Armoured · May 13, 2012

BrotherBart said:
Most people that try to make water heaters out of their wood stove not only wreck the efficiency of the stove by sucking heat out of the firebox needed for a clean burn but also create a hand grenade in their house in the process.

Woodheat has some gruesome pictures: http://woodheat.org/heating-water-with-a-wood-stove.html

Wanna help me choose a soapstone or cast iron stove?

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