Beta testing Woodstock's Ideal Steel Hybrid
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BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
No back puffing at all. As a PH owner, I have experience in causing this (and avoiding, as Backwoods Savage recommends, with a tad more air).
Last night after I answered about the reload/dial-in time, I did my final load on top of more coals than usual (I was ready for bed). At 6 minutes I closed the bypass and immediately set the air to where I thought the evening cruise setting would be (normally I would let it burn longer before closing the bypass, and then let the temp climb more before setting the final air). Then I stayed up to watch what happened. The flames initially died back some and were slightly anemic, but then it settled into a nice, low secondaries burn. This took about 15 minutes from the time I closed the bypass and damper.Then I went to bed.
We have tried to make the Ideal Steel back puff and have been unable to.
I think ours is set on the lowest setting, but am not positive about that (they set it at the factory, based on me putting it into the same 'T' as the PH.
The highest point on the top is the hinge for the access door, at 34".
The back half of the top sits slightly higher than the front, at 32 1/2".
The front is 32" even.
The top of the rear flue is 31".
OK, BrowningBAR's answer was nagging me, so I pulled the leg cover, and sure enough, there is another hole for going down. At least another 1", possibly 1 1/8" lower. I think this beta is of the same general vintage as the one he is referring to, and since they are betas you would do well to confirm when the time is right.
weatherguy
Minister of Fire
I didn't know that, didn't come across that in anything I read about it, it's going to be between this and the PH for next year I think.
Thanks guys
I'm liking the results so far on the IS, long burn times and plenty of heat.
Yup, that is what I do to cure it. There is an art to setting a stove just right. Good to hear there hasn't been any whoofing or back puffs.
I am often amazed that you can reload on a big coal bed and not experience a major runaway or overfire, not my experience with other stoves I have had in the past.
Are you forward raking the coals or loading on a level coal bed?
Awesome, love it!
Try some poorly seasoned wood, get it burning, then choke it down until the flame goes out and it smolders. Let the firebox fill with wood smoke, then open up the door or air suddenly and it will back puff. This is not a fault of the stove. It is physics.
fire_man
Minister of Fire
True, but some stoves seem more prone to backpuffing than others even under ideal conditions using dry wood.
The fact that Flamestead can snuff it down after a 6 minute reload is a really good sign. Some cat stoves seem to have a tendency to backpuff if you smolder them down too quickly.
It looks like WS has this stove dialed in real well.
The fact that Flamestead can snuff it down after a 6 minute reload is a really good sign. Some cat stoves seem to have a tendency to backpuff if you smolder them down too quickly.
It looks like WS has this stove dialed in real well.
True - I should qualify my statement to say that with our wood (2yr Red Maple) and good draft, we have tried and have not been able to get this stove to back puff, but with essentially the same wood I can make the PH back puff, and could occasionally get our old Tempwood to, also (and that would get your attention in a hurry).
The airflow in the PH is different than the Ideal Steel. The Ideal Steel has two air inlets at the front, either side of the door (note the bright glowing at either corner). This is an improvement over the PH's single center inlet, leading to more uniform mixing of gasses within the firebox.
I generally rake forward, but last night's load was on top about 6"+ of big coals, with coals all the way to the back - much more than I normally reload on.
In warmer weather I like the biggest split to go in the bottom, back of a reload, with minimal coals back there, because it seems to stretch out the burn.
Just a heads up, I talked with Woodstock and you can place your name on the reservation list for the ideal steel. No financial commitment. I was told they are confident it will be shipping well before the heating season starts.
I had a suspicion to this. I know with the fireview, there is sometimes a tendency to burn left to right as you face the front.
Cold weather on the way, so we cooled the stove off and checked things out. About 1.3 cord burned so far. We swept the liner the day the stove was installed, and swept it again today, just to see. We don't sweep monthly with the PH, so no real comparison, but we were both quite pleased - about 1/3 cup of fine, light ash was all we got (32', 6" liner, interior chimney, swept bottom-up).
With the PH we have to periodically clean the cat (every couple of weeks in heavy burning). We last dusted this cat off two weeks ago, when we were cooled down to mess with the door gasket. This stove has a right-side bias to the air flow, and that shows up on the cat, with the right side just a little cleaner. I should note this is a beta version, the airflow was taken into consideration in the initial design, and is something they can tune, but not something I can do, and since it is not a pronounced difference we are continuing the beta-test as-is.
Here's the up-stream side of the cat, with two weeks of steady burning. This is cleaner than the PH cat would be, under our conditions, and this stove does not have the iconel screen that the PH has.
With the PH we have to periodically clean the cat (every couple of weeks in heavy burning). We last dusted this cat off two weeks ago, when we were cooled down to mess with the door gasket. This stove has a right-side bias to the air flow, and that shows up on the cat, with the right side just a little cleaner. I should note this is a beta version, the airflow was taken into consideration in the initial design, and is something they can tune, but not something I can do, and since it is not a pronounced difference we are continuing the beta-test as-is.
Here's the up-stream side of the cat, with two weeks of steady burning. This is cleaner than the PH cat would be, under our conditions, and this stove does not have the iconel screen that the PH has.
Good info. I didn't know that the Progress's cat needed a dusting every couple weeks. Does the stove need to be cold to do this?
That's an interesting note about the burn pattern. Are you rotating the cat 180 to get more even use out it?
That's an interesting note about the burn pattern. Are you rotating the cat 180 to get more even use out it?
Thanks for the update, the cat looks pretty good. So the new designed cat is in straight rows instead of wound "Round and Round". Makes a lot of sense to me.
I would guess with the full stainless upgrade there is uniform expansion with frame and cat when it is heated opposed to a cast frame and stainless cat.
Get that stove ready, the arctic air is making its way down! Everyone enjoy the warm temps while they last.
I would guess with the full stainless upgrade there is uniform expansion with frame and cat when it is heated opposed to a cast frame and stainless cat.
Get that stove ready, the arctic air is making its way down! Everyone enjoy the warm temps while they last.
On our PH the screen needs to be cleaned every couple of weeks (of 24/7 burning) as it is almost completely plugged by then, and the cat needs to be cleaned at the same time. The screen is cumbersome to remove/reinstall. The stove needs to be cold/cool to do this and that takes a fair amount of time given the mass of this stove.
This is a major gripe I have with this stove - try going without useful heat from the stove for a long stretch in the heart of burn season! We're lifetime 24/7 burners, have had 5 cat stoves and have never had to bring any stove except for the PH down for any reason - have only cleaned out cats at the end of the season with other stoves and I'm not sure it was ever really necessary. I contrast the PH's maintenance intensive nature to the Jotul Cat Firelight we burn now which has never needed cat maintenance during any burn season since we got it in '98. While it's only one guy's opinion, I try to dissuade friends from buying the PH for this reason and consider it an example of the "incomplete engineering" of this stove - especially the screen. Flame suit on ;-)
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Hey, given your list of stoves and experience, no one can claim you don't know what you are talking about. All opinions are welcome.......here.
There are many varying reports on how often the PH cat needs to be cleaned off. I'm on the more frequent cleaning end of the spectrum - some say they check it and have no issues the whole season. Could be wood species, dryness, how full the firebox is filled, how aggressive the stove is burned, draft, ...). With essentially all of that held equal, the PH secondaries are more jet-like than the Ideal Steel's, and could be causing more turbulence, moving more ash into the exhaust stream. (Related to airflow, the Ideal Steel's glass stays much cleaner for us.)
The PH needs to be cooled down, but not cold, to get to the cat. We got into a habit of watching the weather forecast and the cat performance, and cleaning when it wasn't during a deep cold. We could also restart with the coals still in the stove after cleaning.
I was initially blaming the Ideal Steel's cat for the differences in how the stove burned on the left versus right, so we were rotating the cat, but saw no difference. I do continue to rotate it, but am not concerned since I talked with them about it and they explained the airflow.
Yup, if PH were the only way to go, I'm sure the prices would go even higher than through the roof. All opinions welcome. Of course, the Steel Hybrid may be different again on the cat. Small changes can make significant differences.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Maybe in the future these will be like the CCD chips in my cameras, having a vibrate mode to clean themselves off!
For me (or probably most burners), it would not be a big deal because we always let our stoves go out (NJ would have many warm winter days).....and it's prob not a big deal, but yet there is not a product out there which cannot be improved. They had the top-top designers and engineers on the PH project, but still there are things unknown until you get an infinite numbers of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards.
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