Hybrid. Theory and discussion. Not comparison

Idahonative said:

Hey bud, I've been very clear what my intentions are on here and looking for an argument isn't one of them. And I'm sorry you think my statements are condescending. That really IS NOT my intention.

a) I don't believe I have ever said the stove was a failure...that would be another member on this forum. I do agree with him on the shortcomings though but please don't put words in my mouth. I can do that just fine myself. "It gets better burn times than all similar sized non-cat EPAs that I'm aware of." Are you seriously comparing your hybrid to a non-cat stove and feeling positive about it's performance? I think your expectations are a little low. The whole purpose of a hybrid is to perform well across all ranges, not just mid to upper. If not, then what would be the purpose of owning one when cat technology does a pretty darn good job already?

b) Well, I will have to give Woodstock credit. They state 10-14 hours and I believe that to be a pretty accurate, real world assessment of the Ideal Steel's heating performance. Unfortunately, many owners (not just this forum) are trying to make the IS something it is not. As I have already stated, my biggest problem is with the way Woodstock is using the word "efficiency" to market this stove. It is very efficient from a particulate standpoint. But a high tech stove with a 3.2 cf gas tank that heats a home for 10-14 hours is nothing to write home about. Don't take it personal.

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a) No you didn't but you agreed with Highbeam on his post that did say it explicitly and your other posts (including the one I'm replying to right now) imply it pretty strongly as well. So you don't think the IS / Hybrid technology is a failure? Please clarify - you're giving some mixed signals here, I'm interested in talking about the stove and tech and being straightforward about what we observe and what our opinions are. Yes I am seriously comparing my hybrid stove to a non-cat stove... I realize the OP wanted to keep the discussion strictly hybrid but part of that conversation has already involved other techs in the conversation, and I'm very happy with how it's compared to other stoves I've observed, honestly.

b) Ok.. what are they making it out to be ? I can pack my stove full of softwood and have a good bed of coals 18 hours later and a warm house in our mild pacific northwest winter, so for me yeah it worked well. I'm just reporting the facts and I don't see anybody else that is not reporting facts - if someone is making stuff up maybe you can point it out ? Here's a pic of mine after 18 hours (plus a bit actually).. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...at-when-im-at-work.136547/page-2#post-1898207 post #41. For sure, in cold weather you'd probably be doing 12 hour shifts with good wood packed in to keep warm, and yeah I think that's pretty solid !

Highbeam said:

Again, nobody ever said the IS was a failure. The stove does a lot of things right but fails to do everything right.

I fail to eat fish, but that does not make me a failure.

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"This is not a hybrid, this is a failure."
Your words Highbeam - not much else to say here.

pdxdave said:

"This is not a hybrid, this is a failure."
Your words Highbeam - not much else to say here.

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Context, read the rest. Your stove isn't the only hybrid.

begreen said:

If I recall more than once it has been stated that a BK when pushed is showing smoke out the stack. Is that correct?

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Yes, in my experience. Not heavy but blue. No smoke with the same fuel in a noncat.

Highbeam said:

Context, read the rest. Your stove isn't the only hybrid.

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This debate is getting pretty semantical... I did read your post and it was an all encompassing statement towards hybrids "What is available today..." which includes this stove and needles to say it's a mainstay in any hybrid discussion.
I certainly thinks there's big improvements to be made for hybrid stoves, but by no standard do I think where we are at now is a failure... I'd see a failure as something that actually reduces or produces sub-par performance/particulate emissions and from my experience and what I've read of others this isn't the case. The 'perfect-hybrid' would combine secondary with some sort of thermostatic turndown control, so we'd have perfectly clean high-fires and perhaps even better than BKs get on the low burn. Not there yet, but I see this instance as a great step in the right direction, while other hybrids look like they've had more 'meh' results.

begreen said:

It would appear that Woodstock states their burn times conservatively as winter time burns. That's refreshing. So does BK. For the Princess:
** Constant Heat output on High 40,836 BTU's/h for 10 hours **

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I just went to the Woodstock site again and unlike the bk spec you quoted, the 10-14 hour spec for the IS is not a winter burn spec. They are vague.

begreen said:

IIRC the title says that this thread is supposed to be a discussion of hybrid technology and not a comparison to other technologies. Extreme low burn rates are not critical for everyone. I'm happy to use the heat pump when it's 50F outside and save my wood for colder weather.

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Op stated Cleary in his opening post that he wished to discuss only Hybrid Stoves. But in the last paragraph of the same post he asked four specific questions, three of wich were about cat stoves so...

pdxdave said:

This debate is getting pretty semantical... I did read your post and it was an all encompassing statement towards hybrids "What is available today..." which includes this stove and needles to say it's a mainstay in any hybrid discussion.
I certainly thinks there's big improvements to be made for hybrid stoves, but by no standard do I think where we are at now is a failure... I'd see a failure as something that actually reduces or produces sub-par performance/particulate emissions and from my experience and what I've read of others this isn't the case. The 'perfect-hybrid' would combine secondary with some sort of thermostatic turndown control, so we'd have perfectly clean high-fires and perhaps even better than BKs get on the low burn. Not there yet, but I see this instance as a great step in the right direction, while other hybrids look like they've had more 'meh' results.

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The lopi cape cod did really well too.

Why are people so sensitive to the word failure? Did you grow up in one of those places where all kids got trophies? My bk fails to provide a great fireshow 90% of the time, but it is not a failure.

I agree that the IS is actually a very good stove and a huge step in the right direction. They just failed to nail the whole hybrid concept this time around.

Highbeam said:

Why are people so sensitive to the word failure? Did you grow up in one of those places where all kids got trophies?

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Hmm.. OK... You and Idaho seem to be taking this really hard. Not agreeing with you and stating facts is just that.. part of the debate, that's not taking it personal. No need for those kind of comments.

pdxdave said:

Hmm.. OK... You and Idaho seem to be taking this really hard. Not agreeing with you and stating facts is just that.. part of the debate, that's not taking it personal. No need for those kind of comments.

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Fair enough. Where I'm coming from is a place with a nine month burn season with mostly mild temperatures and 100% wood heat. Long, low, and slow is unusually important to me. I also appreciate high output when we are down to single digits and no visible smoke since nobody likes smoke.

I expect and demand a woodstove to offer the full range of outputs. It can look bad and be expensive but needs to perform. The hybrid concept is what this thread is about. The hybrid concept, if executed well, will provide the low end at least as good as a cat stove and the top end like a noncat with no smoke throughout. Anything less is a failure because we already have noncats for clean and hot, we already have cats that do clean and low/medium.

Doesn't everybody want the full range of outputs? Everybody has a shoulder season and everybody has really cold times. Why settle for less?

They hybrid concept seems to be the right idea. The combination of technology that is not a compromise but a combination to get the best of both technologies.

Highbeam said:

Fair enough. Where I'm coming from is a place with a nine month burn season with mostly mild temperatures and 100% wood heat. Long, low, and slow is unusually important to me. I also appreciate high output when we are down to single digits and no visible smoke since nobody likes smoke.

I expect and demand a woodstove to offer the full range of outputs. It can look bad and be expensive but needs to perform. The hybrid concept is what this thread is about. The hybrid concept, if executed well, will provide the low end at least as good as a cat stove and the top end like a noncat with no smoke throughout. Anything less is a failure because we already have noncats for clean and hot, we already have cats that do clean and low/medium.

Doesn't everybody want the full range of outputs? Everybody has a shoulder season and everybody has really cold times. Why settle for less?

They hybrid concept seems to be the right idea. The combination of technology that is not a compromise but a combination to get the best of both technologies.

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I'm from the same region as you and I agree ! I've stated in this thread earlier that BK would have been my #1 choice - but I needed a rear vent so the IS Hybrid was the next best thing available with that configuration - plus the price was nice, even with the hefty shipping charge. I'm really thrilled with the stove and it definitely has good turn-down... just not BK-esque turndown. The only thing slowing the development from getting there eventually is cost/reliability. I see where you're coming from I'm coming to the same place just from the other side.. glass half-full/half-empty. Time for beer, it's getting hot here...

begreen said:

Our long shoulder seasons are unusual. This is not typical in New England where Woodstock makes stoves. It seems like they are making good stoves tuned to their climate conditions of short shoulder seasons and long, cold winters.

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So then why not just run a noncat? If you're not interested in longer burns then a cat adds significantly more complexity, cost, and maintenance. I have both, I know. Brobart would probably agree.

This post is not being very constructive from my point of view. All wood stoves, cat and non cat alike, will burn wood, some more efficiently than others, some with more flames than others, some have glass that stays cleaner than others, and heck even a few burn longer than others on the same amount of fuel and chimney length.

When we all start making comparisons, such as stove top temps, it makes no sense at all. First, are we all measuring in the precise same spot? (No) Do we all have the optimal chimney/draft needed to produce that peak performance? (No) Burn time comparisons vary just as greatly as do the levels of density in the fuel, moisture content, altititude effects on draft etc....................... Just as an example, yes, on King and Princess models the glass tends to get dirty on low burns. But some guy in cold contry has a 25' stack and his glass stays clean. So, I hope readers/shoppers always remember that each of us speaks from our ISOLATED experience. In the case of a few of us, we burn them ALL. When Webby comments, he works in a retail environment with dozens of models and vast experience. But even his vast experience is limited to the store his customers and his home use and those chimneys and his fuel and his homes' comfort level.

Highbean says he sees some smoke coming out of his stack on high burn....sorry but that is not the case for 90% or more of the product owners. So does that make his observation less important, no! But it his exprience and he can share that if doing so meets the standard or purpose as I understand stand it of Hearth.com

Hearth.com should and always has been about helping folks with identifying stoves that can get the job done. It also is about helping folks find a solution when their particular installation has performance issues.

Sorry, to ramble, but you all need a Tui and end this post.

it's getting personal there only stoves guys. each one has it's merits and it's down sides if there was a perfect stove woudn't we all have it?

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JA600L said:

It is easy to take offense. I mean none to your product BKVP. Both are great stoves. Everybody thinks what they have is best. I just wanted to discuss hybrids not end the discussion with unless it's a Blaze King it's a failure .

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Ray Charles could have seen this coming!

I'm not sure if your looking for reassurance that you made the right decision or an argument that you can win but these mine vs yours threads do seem to follow you around.