Hybrid. Theory and discussion. Not comparison

[Highbeam]

The secondary air supply on the PH used a thermostatic control. They had some problems with it. That control did not regulate stove output like an actual thermostat. It was another emissions device.

So let's not forget that emission and efficiency are not directly related. In an effort to get a clean stove, some noncat designs waste a tremendous amount of heat up the flue and only allow high burn rates in an effort to hold firebox temps high and burn up emissions. Terribly inefficient but clean.

 

[begreen]

Woodstock has deservedly won awards for its designs. They are a small company and proud of their products. I can't fault them for that. They are a lot more customer centered and accurate with their marketing than some other stove companies. That said I hear you on the Woodstock fan boy club. They do tend to think their stove is the best stove on the planet at times. But then again, so do BK owners. Personally, I know my stove is the best stove.

 

[pdxdave]

I agree, and that is a big reason why the Ideal Steel DOES NOT possess "record efficiency" in the real world (aka HEATING EFFICIENCY). "Position of the air control" is operated manually and that's part of the problem. "High efficiency" and "Manual controls" don't belong in the same sentance. Without an auto damper, true (real world) efficiency can not be achieved IMO. Hybrid's are highly efficient when it comes to particulate emitted (EPA). But when it comes to the transfer of heat from inside the stove to inside the home, the results are just average (real world efficiency).

The point of my input is the fact that manufacturers will sometimes market a stove (or a technology) in such a way to mislead the public. The people pushing hybrids want you to believe this is some sort of new, highly efficient technology. Even from an emissions standpoint, hybrid's don't own exclusive rights to efficiency since many cat stoves will burn just as (or more) cleanly. I think hybrid's are more about selling stoves than selling a better product.

I have an IS and as an Engineer I agree with what you are saying. I think the BK auto controls are the King of heating efficiency, and if they had offered a rear vent and I felt like shelling out some extra $$ then I'd probably have gone that way. That said the IS is undoubtedly far better than an 'average' wood stove in terms of burn times and heating efficiency, don't get me wrong it's not some sort of miracle but I have zero regrets with this stove. I've seen a bunch of other stoves at friends places and mine, and my buddies BK and this IS stand head and shoulders above all the others I've observed.

The case for the hybrid stove is an ecological one, in that it likely provides the easiest way for most people to get a clean burn under a variety of conditions and fuel loads. This thing goes from cold box to clean stack in very short order, and the future of wood burning in developed nations could depend on this type of technology.

 

[Idahonative]

The secondary air supply on the PH used a thermostatic control. They had some problems with it. That control did not regulate stove output like an actual thermostat. It was another emissions device.

So let's not forget that emission and efficiency are not directly related. In an effort to get a clean stove, some noncat designs waste a tremendous amount of heat up the flue and only allow high burn rates in an effort to hold firebox temps high and burn up emissions. Terribly inefficient but clean.

You probably know the answer to this Highbeam: Are there any other manufacturers currently using true auto dampening air controls (thermostat) besides BK?

 

[begreen]

Hwam and Nestor Martin.

 

[Idahonative]

Hwam and Nestor Martin.

Thanks. Are those available in the US or only in Europe?

 

[wildcatbb]

I have an IS and as an Engineer I agree with what you are saying. I think the BK auto controls are the King of heating efficiency, and if they had offered a rear vent and I felt like shelling out some extra $$ then I'd probably have gone that way. That said the IS is undoubtedly far better than an 'average' wood stove in terms of burn times and heating efficiency, don't get me wrong it's not some sort of miracle but I have zero regrets with this stove. I've seen a bunch of other stoves at friends places and mine, and my buddies BK and this IS stand head and shoulders above all the others I've observed.

The case for the hybrid stove is an ecological one, in that it likely provides the easiest way for most people to get a clean burn under a variety of conditions and fuel loads. This thing goes from cold box to clean stack in very short order, and the future of wood burning in developed nations could depend on this type of technology.

"Zero regrets" is huge for peace of mind....and in the end means you got what you hoped for. Can't ask for much more than that.

 

[Idahonative]

Hwam and Nestor Martin.

Ok, found them. Just about fell out of my chair when I saw the Hwam. Not anything I could own because I'm way too old fashioned. But their "autopilot" is interesting although too complex IMO. Too many things to go wrong over time in that mechanism: http://www.hwamna.com/autopilot-ihs

The Nestor Martin is interesting as well and pretty good looking. Don't like having to use an allen wrench to adjust thermo. And kind of funny the wood he is using...the pieces we use in our stove look like whole trees compared to those little chunks:



It is good to see other manufacturers incorporating auto thermostats into their stoves. To truly be an efficient piece of equipment, I feel it is a must.

 

[webby3650]

Ok, found them. Just about fell out of my chair when I saw the Hwam. Not anything I could own because I'm way too old fashioned. But their "autopilot" is interesting although too complex IMO. Too many things to go wrong over time in that mechanism: http://www.hwamna.com/autopilot-ihs

The Nestor Martin is interesting as well and pretty good looking. Don't like having to use an allen wrench to adjust thermo. And kind of funny the wood he is using...the pieces we use in our stove look like whole trees compared to those little chunks:



It is good to see other manufacturers incorporating auto thermostats into their stoves. To truly be an efficient piece of equipment, I feel it is a must.

The only reason you don't see it more is because it's too hard to pass EPA testing with it. It slightly unpredictable during their test. Most aren't willing or able to spend the money on testing.

 

[Oldman47]

I sort of like that Nestor Martin but I noticed he refused to load heavy for an overnight burn. To me that means waking up to a banked fire that is not providing much heat. The way he dealt with it in the morning supports that thought since he was not relighting from active coals. It seems to me that folks in the US are getting 12 hour burns that still have an active coals bed for a relight.
The hex shaped handle makes sense to me. It means the handle can be stored where it will stay cool and then inserted just as it is needed to make changes. Have a look back at your grandmother's cook stove and you will find a removable handle that was used to lift out individual cook covers to expose the pots and pans directly to the fire inside the stove. It also spent its time off to the side staying cool so it could be handled without gloves. The fact that they use a hex shape really does not bother me. It means that if I ever lose the supplied handle I can buy an equivalent at any hardware store.

 

[Idahonative]

The fact that they use a hex shape really does not bother me. It means that if I ever lose the supplied handle I can buy an equivalent at any hardware store.

True, but if you had a thermostat you could adjust with just your fingers you wouldn't have to worry about losing anything.

 

[Idahonative]

The only reason you don't see it more is because it's too hard to pass EPA testing with it. It slightly unpredictable during their test. Most aren't willing or able to spend the money on testing.

You are probably right webby. But I always wondered why more manufacturers didn't go down that path before the 1988 EPA regs. My parents 1979 Earthstove had a beautiful auto damper on it very similar to the BK. As far as I know, those two and maybe VC were the only ones to offer it.

 

[Oldman47]

True, but if you had a thermostat you could adjust with just your fingers you wouldn't have to worry about losing anything.

So he also used that hex shaped device to operate his bypass damper. How would you feel about having a nice cool bypass handle?

 

[Idahonative]

So he also used that hex shaped device to operate his bypass damper. How would you feel about having a nice cool bypass handle?

You mean like this?

 

[JA600L]

I see we're back to the Blaze King is awesome and everything else sucks topic again.

 

[Idahonative]

I see we're back to the Blaze King is awesome and everything else sucks topic again.

Nope, just having normal conversation. You know that thing where you get on a forum to discuss various aspects of wood burning. I've already learned new things and I've only been here a day. Sorry if you took offense to my postings but there's a lot more going on here than BK. Maybe check out for a while, have a cup of coffee, then come back and join in when you're in a better mood

 

[tarzan]

What the IS has done that is remarkable is that it provides very clean burning technology in a large stove at an affordable price. WS has taken a leadership role here. More will follow.

Hasn't Englander already done this with old technology and the nc-30?

 

[JA600L]

I'm in a great mood. I spent the -1 degree morning pulling a starter motor out of a JCB "compact" lift truck on an Amish farm. That makes sitting by the fire and reading about how in- efficient my wood stove is even sweeter.

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks. Are those available in the US or only in Europe?

Obscure, very small, and expensive. At least one of those brands is available here. Not a typical stove.

 

[drz1050]

I don't think I'm a fan of that Hwam door. Looks cool, but also looks like a lot of burned forearms just waiting to happen.

 

[Idahonative]

I'm in a great mood. I spent the -1 degree morning pulling a starter motor out of a JCB "compact" lift truck on an Amish farm. That makes sitting by the fire and reading about how in- efficient my wood stove is even sweeter.

Come on bud, don't start that again. If you come home to a warm house and you enjoy your stove, that's all that really matters. I'm happy for you.

 

[Highbeam]

I see we're back to the Blaze King is awesome and everything else sucks topic again.

You drew that conclusion? Based on the facts presented? or what? Obviously nobody said that except you.

 

[drz1050]

I actually like the location of the bypass lever on the Ideal Steel better than the Blaze Kings. Might get hot, sure.. but more user friendly. And Woodstock gives you that little hand poker thingy to move it with.

 

[JA600L]

I'm good guys just messing with you. It has been a rough day..

 

[Idahonative]

I'm good guys just messing with you. It has been a rough day..

No sweat, we've all had those days