velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
Will do. You could come by and look at my setup too while you're here. Message me if you want to.
Heating with Thermal Storage and Low Flow Temps
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cpeltier
Member
I put the controller together or rather integrated it. Fairly straight forward, nothing terribly complicated. The programming is done via an Object Oriented graphical editor. It allows for rapid programming and it's very intuitive. You basically drag and drop objects on a screen and connect them together with your mouse like wires to define your logic flow. You can also program your own objects in a C++/java like language called Sedona that can then be dropped into your screen. I wrote a custom object to talk to my Pentair/Easytouch Pool control system and it works great.
I was thinking of adding an email object (built into product) so that it will send me an email (to my IPhone) when the BTUs in the storage tank are low and the system needs reloading. I also thinking of having it send me an SMS text which could be easily done through an email gateway. I monitor it now from a web page but then you constantly have to check. Another idea is to put a wall mounted Android tablet upstairs with an animating graphical (web) display, or something as small as an Iphone with a single tank BTU dial on it.
cpeltier
Member
I put the controller together or rather integrated it. Fairly straight forward, nothing terribly complicated. The programming is done via an Object Oriented graphical editor. It allows for rapid programming and it's very intuitive. You basically drag and drop objects on a screen and connect them together with your mouse like wires to define your logic flow. You can also program your own objects in a C++/java like language called Sedona that can then be dropped into your screen. I wrote a custom object to talk to my Pentair/Easytouch Pool control system and it works great.
I was thinking of adding an email object (built into product) so that it will send me an email (to my IPhone) when the BTUs in the storage tank are low and the system needs reloading. I also thinking of having it send me an SMS text which could be easily done through an email gateway. I monitor it now from a web page but then you constantly have to check. Another idea is to put a wall mounted Android tablet upstairs with an animating graphical (web) display, or something as small as an Iphone/Droid with a single tank BTU dial on it mounted in an inconspicuous place.
velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
I've gone to the website but it's not clear to me: does the integration require assembling it onto a circuit board, soldering it on, etc? I'm a noob when it comes to that but I'm looking for a hobby.
Thanks for the offer, I can't do it on this trip but I will catch you next time I am in the area. Looking forward to meeting you and learning about your setup. Thanks for all the helpful information!
cpeltier
Member
I bought it here:
http://controlconsultantsinc.com/ea...odel-with-8gb-sd-card-preinstalled-30961.html
The data sheet is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ql5vx0cc5bjnatc/PS_FG32_v2-7.pdf?dl=0
Tons of stuff on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/EasyIOFGBeast
CPT is the programming tool.
The unit has a DIN rail mount. I mounted mine in a metal cabinet and added DIN mount relays, terminal blocks, and a power supply. I ended up hooking the world up to it so the 32 points of IO weren't enough and I added some more I/O points using Modbus and OneWire temperature sensors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Field_I-z-O/Protos_X_I-z-O
https://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-1700 although there are probably easier ones to use this this particular unit.
16 of the inputs will support thermistors and I used my old Tekmar sensors directly without modification. It takes a minute to bring a temperature into the programming. The outputs can control relays or 4-10ma current loop, DC 0-10V, etc.. Simplest thing I've used yet.
This is what it looked like before I started wiring it. I'll have to get a current picture.
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velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
Like I said, a lot of smart people with a lot of amazing technology. I am a bit more in the plug and play world.
I am more of a story/experience guy vs. #'s so here is a quick story. I started a fire yesterday morning at 7:00 and asked my wife to start a fire last night. She forgot and forgot again this morning. She just called me (4:00 PM) and asked if she should start a fire (tank was at 117) NOT calling to tell me that the house was freezing - it was still at 72. I know the propane did not kick in because I have the setpoint at 110. It was in the upper 20's yesterday, around 20F last night and a high of 29 today. NO way that would have happened last year when I was pulling straight from the top tank without mixing.
cpeltier
Member
The EasyIO controller's built in webserver and graphics are great but it can be taken to another level with DGLux's visualization software. The two integrate easily. I've been thinking about doing this but haven't pulled the trigger. Too many other things to do.
The nice thing about this equipment is it's pretty much standard these days in the field (small) Building Automation System (BAS) industry. There are thousands of these units sold per year and talent in your local area that could fix or maintain it. Your not putting in a one-off system and if you ever sell the home you can safely sell it with the equipment installed. The local HVAC installer would be in trouble but a commercial BAS installer would understand it.
velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
36 hours seems pretty good to me. You have a 1000 gallon tank and you know where you started and where you ended up, average temperature wise. I'm not sure how you would do average temperature-is the temperature gradient in the tank linear? I think not. Then there's issues of not perfect stratification, or whatever else. Anyway, you could figure out, somehow, how many btus you used, which would be interesting. Perhaps your Effecta calculates this for you?
velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
I've been observing low temp, relatively speaking, operation the last few days with my 120 gallon buffer tank (not mixing). I have to say that trying to return from a setback is a groan. I might start a thread on setbacks and cost savings.
(Edit: I can't go too low because my Froling Energy Tank makes dhw with a 1.25" corrugated stainless coil that holds 11 gallons. It works down to pretty low temps. I turn off the zone circs at 120F and back on at 125F while the boiler is getting up to temperature.)
(Edit: I can't go too low because my Froling Energy Tank makes dhw with a 1.25" corrugated stainless coil that holds 11 gallons. It works down to pretty low temps. I turn off the zone circs at 120F and back on at 125F while the boiler is getting up to temperature.)
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NP ALASKA
Burning Hunk
I know I mentioned it somewhere on this thread or another but yes return from a setback is a MAJOR groan. My system uses and Indoor Room Sensor that overrides the Outdoor Reset and will raise the flow temp to drive the Recovery period (usually 20 degrees F or so over the Outdoor Reset target) but even with that it takes a long time. At the end, I am not sure it is worth it.
Bring her here, you and I can split some wood, my wife can work with her on reporting.Im looking forward to see if I can get such reprots from the wife
Not sure how you would do average temp (the Effecta does not do this). I have the ability to measure top of top tank, top of lower tank and bottom of bottom tank temps but I haven't done anything with them other than use them as a gauge to know about ow much buring I can do if I want to get to 190 or so.
maple1
Minister of Fire
That's something else that I see here that indicates my baseboard was oversized when it was put in. I can recover from setback pretty good. If I'm the only one home during the day (which is 90% of the weekdays here), our upstairs (bedroom) zones are set back to 16c. The thermostats up that to 20c around supper time, and it is 20c up there a couple hours later. The stats back down from 20 to 18 for overnight, at 11pm. I usually use setbacks on all of our zones at certain times to extend my storage mileage. Our largest zone has the kitchen on it. It is set to 20c from 5pm until 11pm. Then sets back to 16c until 6am. Ups to 18c until 7:30am. It's usually 7am before someone makes it down there, by then after an hour of heating it is feeling warm, temp usually shows 17c or 18c. That's if I let the stats do what I have them programmed to do - I will also quite often bump them up manually a degree in the evenings or when burning, especially the kitchen one, to put more heat in the house. So I 'set ahead' some also. Our 4th zone has the living room & my office on it, with a manual stat. I drop it a couple degrees on the way to bed, then up it as needed during the day.
If we're gone for the day and I need to heat the whole place up at once (could be from 2c to 4c) when we get back when I get a fire going, I don't have much if any boiler water going to storage for the first couple of hours. But by then the house is pretty well up to temp and water starts going to storage.
I think setback/recovery is a thread of its own and I would think has been deeply discussed somewhere. On the surface it seems to make sense but as I watch my boiler adjusting to accommodate the recovery I clearly see how much extra energy is required to do so. The you add in the discomfort factor (furniture gets cold, etc.). One of the things I committed to myself (and promised my wife) as I headed into this adventure is that our house would be warm. If it takes a little extra wood so be it.
Possibly but I don't have much wall space left for any more baseboard. In my case though I don't think it would matter because my controller is controlling the flow temps. If I had more emitters I think I would be using a somewhat lower heat curve which means I would have lower flow temps than I have now so I think I would be back at the same exact place. Someone good with details could probably do the BTU's saved vs. the extra BTU's used to recover and determine what % benefit, if any, there is associated with setback and recovery.
Also John's house even though he has fin tube might be pretty tight with enough radiation for all this to work. I think outdoor reset with indoor feedback's success from storage is dependent on enough radiation and a relatively tight house, that should be first looked at.
Honestly my recovery takes longer than I would like. I often think about not using it but since I have the Energy Saver feature built in the little kid in me wants to use it.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I think outdoor reset with indoor feedback's success from storage is dependent on enough radiation and a relatively tight house, that should be first looked at.
Yes, also plays a big part.
Ours is fairly decent, 20 year old construction (2x6 studs, housewrap...). Good southern exposure for solar gain too. But we really notice the increased heating load when the wind blows - and we get it whenever it blows & wherever it comes from. Last night it was 'only' -15c or so - but breezy. I will be lighting before noon today, for sure - didn't quite charge up enough yesterday also. I'm already down to 138/131.
Yes, also plays a big part.
Ours is fairly decent, 20 year old construction (2x6 studs, housewrap...). Good southern exposure for solar gain too. But we really notice the increased heating load when the wind blows - and we get it whenever it blows & wherever it comes from. Last night it was 'only' -15c or so - but breezy. I will be lighting before noon today, for sure - didn't quite charge up enough yesterday also. I'm already down to 138/131.
velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
I think it might need further discussion from a low flow temp perspective. I don't remember too much of that.
It sure would be helpful for one of the "engineers" to Explain the how's and whys of outdoor reset with indoor feedback with respect to being drawn from storage, system requirements ect. If John can run his house down to the stick your finger in it temps, as I have witnessed, I'm all ears for some real information. For me, I'm expanding on radiation to lower system temp requirements and flow then install odr with indoor feedback
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