Bucking Advice?

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

I have a red oak that was a real "leaner" until it finally fell over. Once I'm finished processing some more normal trees I'm planning to tackle this bad boy but I've never bucked a tree this warped before. Anyone here have suggestions for how best to proceed? I figured I'd cut off the part overhanging the creek (far right) and then undercut my way along from right to left, but the trunk is sticking up at a pretty good angle at that point. I also thought about starting at the base or the middle where it's more level but figured I'd be guaranteed to pinch the bar if I did that. It's also pretty high in the middle (about 6' up) which doesn't thrill me. The trunk is about 28"-30" in diameter at the base and is still solid (the tree still was full of green leaves when it uprooted last summer) so I don't have to worry about it falling apart on me. Thoughts?

Babaganoosh · Feb 7, 2016

There's probably a lot of tension in that tree so obviously be careful.

Can you push or pull it over so it's not under as much tension?

I'd cut from right to left like you said but when it got too tall to cut I'd do over and cut the left side so it falls to the ground. Undercut the bottom a little then top cut slowly.

mark cline · Feb 7, 2016

That oak is under a lot of tension. So think about how its going to react with each cut. That said, I would approach this by cutting to relieve tension . Then buck it up to manageable pieces. First I would make a cut about 3 ft up from the base as it comes out of the ground . Now your not cutting all the way through. As you cut , watch the opening of the cut , you should see it open. You will see the cut open the more you cut. Now 2 things are going to happen. The tree will want to split ( Google barber chair) and the roots are going to want to fall back into the hole it came out of. At this point I would move down the tree away from the root ball about 18"and start another cut. You want to keep cutting down the tree to relieve tension as you go but don't cut anything above your waist . That gets dangerous fast . Cut slow so you see how the log reacts .After the tree is cut from the stump ,you can finish the cuts to recover all the wood .

mark cline · Feb 7, 2016

Not knowing how much experience you have cutting wood , let alone a tree under tension, after a few cuts down tree towards the top, you'll want go back to the stump to cut it off the root ball. The stump will want to stand back up and the tree itself will fall down , so don't get your feet under it . I have several ways to approach this but I have been doing this for 35yrs. Be safe

DougA · Feb 7, 2016

I cut to relieve tension wherever it is the easiest and safest for you. I doubt the roots will move much since it fell last summer but you never can be sure. I have had the bottom section move a few feet upright after the first cut.

You should get some plastic wedges. They are a must for anyone cutting trees. After you have cut part way through, pound a plastic wedge or two into your cut and that will prevent jamming the saw. It won't work with small trees but fantastic for the mid to bigger guys. If you cut them with your saw (most of us have) it will not hurt the chain at all. Cheap insurance.

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

mark cline said:
That oak is under a lot of tension. So think about how its going to react with each cut. That said, I would approach this by cutting to relieve tension . Then buck it up to manageable pieces. First I would make a cut about 3 ft up from the base as it comes out of the ground . Now your not cutting all the way through. As you cut , watch the opening of the cut , you should see it open. You will see the cut open the more you cut. Now 2 things are going to happen. The tree will want to split ( Google barber chair) and the roots are going to want to fall back into the hole it came out of. At this point I would move down the tree away from the root ball about 18"and start another cut. You want to keep cutting down the tree to relieve tension as you go but don't cut anything above your waist . That gets dangerous fast . Cut slow so you see how the log reacts .After the tree is cut from the stump ,you can finish the cuts to recover all the wood .

I should clarify that the tree's actually not under any tension other than what's caused by its dead weight. The arched trunk is from growing at an angle--that's it's natural shape. The bottom of the root ball is still connected to the ground like a hinge, but otherwise the tree is just lying on the ground loose and unencumbered. So the main force I'm worried about is gravity. I figured the arch makes it a bit top heavy, which is another reason I was thinking it would be best to start from the right side. Once the trunk is disconnected from the root ball, there's a risk it'll roll over and not just drop.

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

DougA said:
You should get some plastic wedges. They are a must for anyone cutting trees. After you have cut part way through, pound a plastic wedge or two into your cut and that will prevent jamming the saw. It won't work with small trees but fantastic for the mid to bigger guys. If you cut them with your saw (most of us have) it will not hurt the chain at all. Cheap insurance.

For bucking I sometimes use oak wedges that I cut from scrap flooring--is there any benefit to using plastic instead (other than visibility)?

barmstrong2 · Feb 7, 2016

Normally, you'd want to start with what is on the ground, not under stress by weight. With this tree, you have 2 opposite forces. The weight of the tree, causing downward tension, and the weight of the roots, causing upward tension. So, of it were me, I guess I'd want to get the trunk cut away from the root. If start where the height is about knee high, I don't want to be bent over the saw, out reaching much above waist high. Cut 1/4-1/3 through from the top, move 18" and cut again, until I got to my height limit. Back to my 1st cut and carefully, slowly take the cut through until the tree begins to give. Take your time, it's not a race.

barmstrong2 · Feb 7, 2016

Hasufel said:
I should clarify that the tree's actually not under any tension other than what's caused by its dead weight. The arched trunk is from growing at an angle--that's it's natural shape. The bottom of the root ball is still connected to the ground like a hinge, but otherwise the tree is just lying on the ground loose and unencumbered. So the main force I'm worried about is gravity. I figured the arch makes it a bit top heavy, which is another reason I was thinking it would be best to start from the right side. Once the trunk is disconnected from the root ball, there's a risk it'll roll over and not just drop.

Can't really see the roots in the pic. Don't count on it staying as is. Those are heavy. 9 out of 10 they will stand back up when the weight is cut off.

DougA · Feb 7, 2016

Hasufel said:
For bucking I sometimes use oak wedges that I cut from scrap flooring--is there any benefit to using plastic instead (other than visibility)?

Never thought of making some. The only difference I can think of is that the plastic is softer and you won't notice any kickback if you hit it with the chain. At least I haven't.

barmstrong2 said:
. 9 out of 10 they will stand back up when the weight is cut off

I've been cutting a lot of trees exactly like that. We had over a hundred come down in a bad storm in'13. Ones that were cut soon after, do indeed flip up but if this tree fell last summer, it is unlikely to move much. I would ALWAYS be ready for that to happen though as you can't be certain. Safety first.

DUMF · Feb 7, 2016

Hasufel said:
For bucking I sometimes use oak wedges that I cut from scrap flooring--is there any benefit to using plastic instead (other than visibility)?

Yes plastic (love the bright green ones that are easy to see when you drop them in snow ! ). Also for leaners or just wedging a tree to fall where you want.
And, chains shred the plastic when, not if, you hit them. Bailey's has good deals on a dozen wedges.

xman23 · Feb 7, 2016

Now this is only my opinion. Qualifications are, only that I've done a few of these over the years and common sense of the forces, gravity and a bit of research. I lop off anything hanging, branches etc.. Remove weight when ever you can so there is less unknown forces. You could do this tree a few ways. The safest way is to get it on the ground or closer to the ground. Pull it over with a come a long. But the tree as it is now, the top half is under compression (pinch) and the bottom is under tension. So to cut this anywhere between the two points holding it up, first make a down cut about half way and then a up cut to meet the top cut. That's assuming both of the supporting ends can move to fold at the cut location. If one side only will move you need to make a step cut. Of course the two pieces will move when you get through it so you have to understand which way the weight will take them.

But If I can, I like it in the air. A foot or two off the ground with the light end hanging. Then I can lop off 18' hanging rounds with top cuts. I would make a bottom cuts from the top end. With the trunk end blocked up at a distance that would leave a hanging top end. Hope that's clear. But work from the ground and not on wood that's 6 ft off the ground.

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

barmstrong2 said:
Can't really see the roots in the pic. Don't count on it staying as is. Those are heavy. 9 out of 10 they will stand back up when the weight is cut off.

Here's a shot of the roots (and a better view of the natural bend in the trunk). I take your point about the tendency to stand back up, which gets at one of my main concerns. If I cut the trunk near the base, the two opposing forces you described result may actually act in counterintuitive (and problematic) ways: gravity will cause the long stretch of trunk to rotate clockwise on the photo below (CCW on the original picture) because there is a pivot point where the upper part of the trunk rests on the edge of a small bluff, and the tendency you mentioned for a root ball to "stand up" will also drive the stump in a clockwise direction (CCW on the original photo). That would cause the two cut faces to shear past each other and either pinch the bar or fall in an unpredictable direction that most likely would be toward me.

That's why I thought that starting at the end opposite the roots would better allow me to "let it down gently" because the weight of the tree would counterbalance the root effect until the trunk was a much more manageable size. But all of this is theory...I'm not sure how it works out in practice. And to add one other wild card, the cross-section of the trunk is very oval with the long axis pointing up/down, which adds another dimension of potential instability.

xman23 · Feb 7, 2016

Oh I didn't see the root ball. Yes they will roll back in to the hole. All the ones I did rolled back into the hole when I was loping off the last 18" round, near neutral weight. Otherwise I was jacking up to trunk end with a 1 ton floor jack. My hydraulic floor jack does all the work, along with various rounds holding up the trunk. The longer the ball is out of the ground, the more dirt washes off the ball, back into the hole, thus preventing the roll back. I can see dirt is washing off this one. Work from the far end, knocking off pieces and lowering the center section. There's a lot of nice wood in this tree, be careful, it's a great learning experience. Of course if your uneasy don't do it.

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

xman23 said:
Oh I didn't see the root ball. Yes they will roll back in to the hole. All the ones I did rolled back into the hole when I was loping off the last 18" round, near neutral weight. Otherwise I was jacking up to trunk end with a 1 ton floor jack. My hydraulic floor jack does all the work, along with various rounds holding up the trunk. The longer the ball is out of the ground, the more dirt washes off the ball, back into the hole, thus preventing the roll back. I can see dirt is washing off this one. Work from the far end, knocking off pieces and lowering the center section. There's a lot of nice wood in this tree, be careful, it's a great learning experience. Of course if your uneasy don't do it.

Thanks, xman. I'll probably wait for warmer & drier weather before starting because I basically have to stand in a creek to get the top part of the trunk. I've got plenty of rounds to split in the meantime. I bet you're right about there being lots of good wood here. A tree guy I was talking to a few years back said that trees that grow at a slant tend to have really dense wood. We'll see...I'll post pix once I have something to show.

English BoB · Feb 7, 2016

Keep it off the ground while working it. Use smaller trees around 6 foot long placed at a 90 deg underneath every 4-5 feet , keeps your chain out of the dirt and quicker bucking.

bob

barmstrong2 · Feb 7, 2016

Hasufel said:
Here's a shot of the roots (and a better view of the natural bend in the trunk). I take your point about the tendency to stand back up, which gets at one of my main concerns. If I cut the trunk near the base, the two opposing forces you described result may actually act in counterintuitive (and problematic) ways: gravity will cause the long stretch of trunk to rotate clockwise on the photo below (CCW on the original picture) because there is a pivot point where the upper part of the trunk rests on the edge of a small bluff, and the tendency you mentioned for a root ball to "stand up" will also drive the stump in a clockwise direction (CCW on the original photo). That would cause the two cut faces to shear past each other and either pinch the bar or fall in an unpredictable direction that most likely would be toward me. That's why I thought that starting at the end opposite the roots would better allow me to "let it down gently" because the weight of the tree would counterbalance the root effect until the trunk was a much more manageable size. But all of this is theory...I'm not sure how it works out in practice. And to add one other wild card, the cross-section of the trunk is very oval with the long axis pointing up/down, which adds another dimension of potential instability.
View attachment 174199

That shot makes it more clear. The root will definitely fall back into the hole. From what I can see there, I would cut everything on the ground and clear it. Then, start cutting where the tree his the ground, undercut 18" at a time, until the bend is gone. At that point, you have one force, the weight of the root, to deal with. Cut 18" pieces, from the far end away from the root until the weight lifts the remaining tree, then, cut it free.

That's my call from 2 pictures. You may see it differently, in person. All good experience. Be safe.

Firefighter938 · Feb 7, 2016

English BoB said:
Keep it off the ground while working it. Use smaller trees around 6 foot long placed at a 90 deg underneath every 4-5 feet , keeps your chain out of the dirt and quicker bucking.

bob

I was going to suggest the same thing. I would start by taking limbs off and working my way down the tree. Once I got it into a manageable size I would drop a large portion of the trunk onto some logs placed underneath on the ground. As others have said, the roots will want to roll back into their hole when you remove the weight of the trunk. I have had some go rather fast, and others that took days to stand back up so be careful.

Hasufel · Feb 7, 2016

Thanks, everyone. Nice to know my initial plan wasn't too far off, but now I know to watch out for the stump trying to settle back in the hole. And placing logs underneath makes sense. At least I finally have a use for all the pine I've got lying around. (

for the pine lovers out there.) I'm not new to bucking (just cut another 15 oak rounds today) but mostly I've dealt with straightforward stuff. This will be a new experience. I appreciate all the cautionary notes. I'll let you know how it goes, but we've got more snow in the forecast and I may just hold off until we're a little closer to spring.

heavy hammer · Feb 7, 2016

As the others have said be smart take your time and plan. I just remover six locust trees in this same scenario. Granted I had an excavator to help but once you start cutting the parts of the tree that is pinched or under tension look to see if you need to under cut or use a wedge. If you have access to any machinery that is a big help. Don't cut anything overhead to hard and dangerous to control the saw. All the others gave expert advise just listen. Rope or chain will help for pulling or lifting. Good luck let us know how it works. Worse case have an exit route.

maple1 · Feb 7, 2016

Start at the top. Cut off the limbs, work your way to the ball cutting rounds off. At some point the end your at should be hanging in the air. Easy cutting rounds off then. Keep going, eventually the ball will settle & the trunk your working at will stand up ( shouldn't happen fast if you work down a round at a time). Fell the remaining trunk as if it were a tree, then finish cutting the trunk into rounds. And listen to post 5 - get some wedges. Takes the pinching issue and up cuts out of the picture.

Edit: after looking at the root ball pic again, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't stand back up.

mark cline · Feb 7, 2016

Bottom line, think it through and be safe .I'm sure the situation would look different if you could see the tree close up , but from looking at a few pictures , everybody is on the same page . Safety is paramount, tension and compression forces are real and have to be taken in to account. Glad to see all on here are looking towards safety as the first priority.

Oldman47 · Feb 7, 2016

If you start by limbing and cutting up the part hanging over the creek, the guess about what will happen with the next cut becomes much easier. Frankly I would line up a few branches or small logs along the trunk to hold this one off the ground and start cutting off rounds at the tree top end. At first you will have a pinch on the top so either cut part way from the top and finish from the bottom or cut part way from the top, insert a wedge and then finish the cut from the top. As you work your way toward the root ball the log will start to be less likely to try to bind on your top cut and may not lay down hard on those branches you put under it. At that point you can just cut from the top but you must become very aware that the log could stand up after any cut as the weight of that one round is removed.

neverbilly · Feb 8, 2016

Oldman47 said:
If you start by limbing and cutting up the part hanging over the creek, the guess about what will happen with the next cut becomes much easier. Frankly I would line up a few branches or small logs along the trunk to hold this one off the ground and start cutting off rounds at the tree top end. At first you will have a pinch on the top so either cut part way from the top and finish from the bottom or cut part way from the top, insert a wedge and then finish the cut from the top. As you work your way toward the root ball the log will start to be less likely to try to bind on your top cut and may not lay down hard on those branches you put under it. At that point you can just cut from the top but you must become very aware that the log could stand up after any cut as the weight of that one round is removed.

How do you guys pound your felling wedges in? Do you carry a tool or use a nearby limb? If a tool, what? I am curious. I own an Estwing Fireside Friend splitting hatchet but that dude weighs 4 lbs. I guess a regular hatchet wouldn't be heavy enough?

Firefighter938 · Feb 8, 2016

neverbilly said:
How do you guys pound your felling wedges in? Do you carry a tool or use a nearby limb? If a tool, what? I am curious. I own an Estwing Fireside Friend splitting hatchet but that dude weighs 4 lbs. I guess a regular hatchet wouldn't be heavy enough?

I use a regular hatchet when I remember it. I think it weighs 1.5 or 2lb. If I forget the hatchet I cut a nice sized easily maneuverable limb and hit them. I don't normally drive them in very far when I'm am bucking. Just enough so they won't come back out and save my bar from getting benched.

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