Cat or non-Cat--THAT is the question--
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Well, my head is certainly spinning with all this knowledge! So, now another question comes to mind:
Can you burn a cat stove in a non-cat mode? If you have greener wood or higher moisture content wood, can you avoid using the converter and just use it as a non-cat stove? Apparently the VC Dutchwest cats don't have many supporters out there and that's what the local dealer is wanting to sell us. I'm just not sure he's wanting to give me any options. I'm certainly not inclined to get a stove that has to have a converter that has to be replaced periodically at a somewhat expensive price. We are going to look around in Albuquerque this weekend and in Amarillo and Hereford the next. I'd sure like to have some way to decide.
I DO appreciate all the input, so now what's a newbie to do? :-S
Can you burn a cat stove in a non-cat mode? If you have greener wood or higher moisture content wood, can you avoid using the converter and just use it as a non-cat stove? Apparently the VC Dutchwest cats don't have many supporters out there and that's what the local dealer is wanting to sell us. I'm just not sure he's wanting to give me any options. I'm certainly not inclined to get a stove that has to have a converter that has to be replaced periodically at a somewhat expensive price. We are going to look around in Albuquerque this weekend and in Amarillo and Hereford the next. I'd sure like to have some way to decide.
I DO appreciate all the input, so now what's a newbie to do? :-S
Todd
Minister of Fire
I believe that it is illegal to run a cat stove in non-cat mode, unless you are doing so according to the users manual. I thought I read that in a VC manual I found on-line on their site. It might be a good idea to search on-line for a manual for the stoves you have in question and read them over to see for yourself what running a cat stove is all about.
This page from Mr. Oyen's site is interesting. Usually his take on things seems quite knowledgeable - in fact I'm surprised he hasn't contributed to this thread.
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm
I bought a new Dutchwest "large" cat stove last summer and used it last winter and was very pleased with it. First, it puts out steady heat, load it, bring the temp up on the pipe and door thermometers and engage the cat, set the draft and thats it until time to reload. Second, its very clean, since it has a grate and an ash removal pan and door, each morning before I disturb the fire, with gloves I carry out the ash pan with 24 hours of ashes, a minium amount of dust. Loading through the side door also helps to keep the hearth clean. It does take longer than I would like to reach "cat engagement temp", so this year I am replaceing the ceramic cat with one from stovecombustor that lights off at 380 f to try to cut that time. Cost $114 with shipping. The ceramic cat is in good condition, I will set it back as a spare. The Dutchwest meets my needs for a 24/7 stove.
Gees! I've been running several different models cat and non cat over the last 30 years. Dutchwest, VC, Russo, Pro Former Z, Nightengale, and I forget!
My last 3 were cat ( currently a VC Intrepid II about 5 years old) and would always go catalytic unless some newer technology came out.
1. It's nothing to operate. Once you get to around 400 degrees you flip a handle, that's it.
2. Hardly any or greatly reduced smoke. ( way to tell if cat is not working is look at the chimney - lot of smoke you turned the lever too soon).
3. Creosote - minimal ( run the stove 24/7 Oct - March and clean the chimney once mid winter and beginning of Oct. LESS than a coffee can of creosote!). I have never, ever worried about a chimney fire with a cat stove.
4. Maintenance - I vacuum the cat maybe once a month and then its usually clean. With the cat on a 24/7 burn I really don't need to or actually do clean out ash for 2 weeks. It burns up most of everything.
Run it under water, wash it no problem. I have NEVER seen a degraded cat.
You start the stove with kindling and get a good hot flame. If you want a fast, bright and pretty fire - don't turn on the cat "simple".
Once you hit around 400 degrees ( depends on stove mfg) you flip a handle. Now you will still get a slow close to backdraft looking flame but its still a flame. Just depends on how you set the
thermo temp adjustment.
Only time I wrecked a cat was as a novice, burnt pressure treated wood, painted wood, etc. Knew it, when I saw smoke always coming from the chimney. Replacement -
under $100.
My reasons for liking -
!
a. More efficient.
b. Minimal smoke and much less ash.
c. stabilized rate of burn
I got to tell you - I love wood burning because of the type of heat, the look of the flame and I guess just the whole wood process.
There's IMHO a Cat advantage - Smokefree and more efficient !! THAT's why I would go CAT again.!!
My last 3 were cat ( currently a VC Intrepid II about 5 years old) and would always go catalytic unless some newer technology came out.
1. It's nothing to operate. Once you get to around 400 degrees you flip a handle, that's it.
2. Hardly any or greatly reduced smoke. ( way to tell if cat is not working is look at the chimney - lot of smoke you turned the lever too soon).
3. Creosote - minimal ( run the stove 24/7 Oct - March and clean the chimney once mid winter and beginning of Oct. LESS than a coffee can of creosote!). I have never, ever worried about a chimney fire with a cat stove.
4. Maintenance - I vacuum the cat maybe once a month and then its usually clean. With the cat on a 24/7 burn I really don't need to or actually do clean out ash for 2 weeks. It burns up most of everything.
Run it under water, wash it no problem. I have NEVER seen a degraded cat.
You start the stove with kindling and get a good hot flame. If you want a fast, bright and pretty fire - don't turn on the cat "simple".
Once you hit around 400 degrees ( depends on stove mfg) you flip a handle. Now you will still get a slow close to backdraft looking flame but its still a flame. Just depends on how you set the
thermo temp adjustment.
Only time I wrecked a cat was as a novice, burnt pressure treated wood, painted wood, etc. Knew it, when I saw smoke always coming from the chimney. Replacement -
under $100.
My reasons for liking -
!a. More efficient.
b. Minimal smoke and much less ash.
c. stabilized rate of burn
I got to tell you - I love wood burning because of the type of heat, the look of the flame and I guess just the whole wood process.
There's IMHO a Cat advantage - Smokefree and more efficient !! THAT's why I would go CAT again.!!
Todd
Minister of Fire
olive wood said:
Yeah, he's pretty much bias on non-cats. I took part in that debate a couple years ago and he was comparing my Fireview to an Hearthstone, but he compared the hearthstones cordwood efficiency to the Fireviews EPA efficiency. Not apples to apples. I would say that most people that complain about their cat stoves is due to operator error or bad install not the stove. And since a cat stove is a little more sensitive to proper maintenance and operation non cats are a better choice for dealers so they don't have to deal with the head aches from Joe know it all. This doesn't mean non cats are better or vice versa, both have their place and do the job.
Todd
Minister of Fire
unit40 said:
Well if that's true I wonder how they would enofce it? I burn mine in the bypass mode a few times if I just need a small quick fire to take the chill out of the basement.
a small twist here...
Lets assume that there is a CAT stove with efficiency 75% and a NON-CAT stove with the same 75% efficiency. Which one would be a better buy? I assume NON-CATs are a little cheaper than the CAT stoves.
Lets assume that there is a CAT stove with efficiency 75% and a NON-CAT stove with the same 75% efficiency. Which one would be a better buy? I assume NON-CATs are a little cheaper than the CAT stoves.
Todd said:
Both are good solutions and have their merits. Cat stoves are a good solution for some, especially those that want heating with less peaks and valleys in the heating cycle. They are particularly good when a continuous low output is desired. But there will be higher maintenance with a cat. They bypass assembly will need an occasional adjustment and eventual replacement if it warps. The cat can last many years with good care, but it can also be trashed in just a couple years by bad burning practices like overfiring, contamination, etc.
That said, many competing non-cat stoves are equally efficient and clean burning. Heating cycles can also be evened out with stove mass. This is the way Hearthstone soapstone and the PE Alderlea work. Often these stoves have only one moving part, the air control. That usually makes them easier to operate and often they require lower maintenance over the life of the stove.
Todd
Minister of Fire
joesat78 said:
You really can't trust the numbers. Are they burn efficiency, output efficiency, corwood test or EPA test? Too many variables and no true standardized real world test. Those two stoves could act completely different in your chimney. Too bad you couldn't take them for a test drive?
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
To Todd and HearthKB, Mrs. Savage says you are welcome. She was really surprised to see the thank yous too.
btw, that was the first time my wife has ever posted on a forum!! Doubt she does it again, but sometimes when I read these posts to her she does get a little riled up. After all, she is a redhead.
btw, that was the first time my wife has ever posted on a forum!! Doubt she does it again, but sometimes when I read these posts to her she does get a little riled up. After all, she is a redhead.
Woods Dweller
New Member
The quest is over! Ordered a cat.
I pulled my old chimney and fireplace this weekend. Took my time and there was absolutely no stone damage! As you can see from the size of the hole, the Heatilator Icon 100 that came out was a monster! I wanted the Napoleon High Country NZ6000, but could not install it. Plenty of room for the unit but required metal studs and non combustables pretty high up the wall ABOVE the unit. Probably because Napoleon claims that the stove can put out in excess of 100,000 BTU under perfect conditions. Metal studs above not possible with log walls.
Anyhow, today I put a deposit down and ordered the Extrordinair Elite 44 with artisan face. Way too expensive, but I figure I’ll get it back eventually with propane savings! Plus I look at it like buying a peice of furniture too. I have to look at it all year.
My only concern is that I’ve never had a cat stove. We’ll see. Install probably in a couple of weeks.
I’ll have some stone work to do filling in the gaps because even though the Extrordinair is pretty big with a 4.3 SF firebox, it still won’t completely fill that huge space.
I pulled my old chimney and fireplace this weekend. Took my time and there was absolutely no stone damage! As you can see from the size of the hole, the Heatilator Icon 100 that came out was a monster! I wanted the Napoleon High Country NZ6000, but could not install it. Plenty of room for the unit but required metal studs and non combustables pretty high up the wall ABOVE the unit. Probably because Napoleon claims that the stove can put out in excess of 100,000 BTU under perfect conditions. Metal studs above not possible with log walls.
Anyhow, today I put a deposit down and ordered the Extrordinair Elite 44 with artisan face. Way too expensive, but I figure I’ll get it back eventually with propane savings! Plus I look at it like buying a peice of furniture too. I have to look at it all year.
My only concern is that I’ve never had a cat stove. We’ll see. Install probably in a couple of weeks.
I’ll have some stone work to do filling in the gaps because even though the Extrordinair is pretty big with a 4.3 SF firebox, it still won’t completely fill that huge space.
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How much did you pay. I would love a 4.3 cubic foot box to put in the basement.
What other really big stoves are out there?
What other really big stoves are out there?
WD,
You're going to love that fireplace. We're going on 3 years with ours and are very happy. I burn 24/7 in the winter so I don't have to pay the propane man.....
Y
You're going to love that fireplace. We're going on 3 years with ours and are very happy. I burn 24/7 in the winter so I don't have to pay the propane man.....
Y
Todd
Minister of Fire
Hey Todd,
Being such a big firebox it takes a little while to get up to temp(especially for the heat sensor to trip and the fan to kick on). Once the fire gets going and the CAT engages the FP really puts out the heat. Our house is 2600sf and we use the FP almost exclusively during the winter.
As far as the CAT, it's funny back when we bought the unit I was a little skeptical about the whole CAT thingy. Now that I've used it though I'm a true believer. With a good fire going and then CAT disengaged you can hold your hand in front of the air discharge vents(it's hot but you can hold your hand there). With the CAT engaged however there is no way you can hold your hand anywhere near the vents. The amount of heat the FP puts out is truly amazing.
Also, it's pretty cool that when the CAT is engaged you can go outside and see almost no smoke from the chimney.
Y
Being such a big firebox it takes a little while to get up to temp(especially for the heat sensor to trip and the fan to kick on). Once the fire gets going and the CAT engages the FP really puts out the heat. Our house is 2600sf and we use the FP almost exclusively during the winter.
As far as the CAT, it's funny back when we bought the unit I was a little skeptical about the whole CAT thingy. Now that I've used it though I'm a true believer. With a good fire going and then CAT disengaged you can hold your hand in front of the air discharge vents(it's hot but you can hold your hand there). With the CAT engaged however there is no way you can hold your hand anywhere near the vents. The amount of heat the FP puts out is truly amazing.
Also, it's pretty cool that when the CAT is engaged you can go outside and see almost no smoke from the chimney.
Y
Todd
Minister of Fire
I usually get 8+ hours. I'll cram the firebox as full as possible around 9:45pm and run it full bore for about 15 minutes. Then I shut the air way down and go to bed. When I come downstairs at 6:00am to take the dog out the fan is usually still running and there are enough coals to load again and keep the fire going.
I've tried loading the stove in the morning(6:00am) such that I have coals when I get home from work at night(around 5:30pm) but I always run out of burntime. There are a couple of coals buried in the ash but nothing that could really get a fire re-started. I'd guess you could probably get 10 hour burn times fairly consistently if you did everything(full load of hardwood, turn air control to perfect setting) just right.
Y
I've tried loading the stove in the morning(6:00am) such that I have coals when I get home from work at night(around 5:30pm) but I always run out of burntime. There are a couple of coals buried in the ash but nothing that could really get a fire re-started. I'd guess you could probably get 10 hour burn times fairly consistently if you did everything(full load of hardwood, turn air control to perfect setting) just right.
Y
mayhem
Minister of Fire
Note, I did not read this entire thread, so I apologize if I post anything redundant.
I lean towards non-cat stoves myself. In my old house I had a VC Dutchwest Federal stove (CAT) and the thing was a pain to keep running properly. It required constant adjustment and it seemed to have two modes...either too cool to runt eh cat properly and my heat was running to keep the house warm, or it ran hot...like surface of the sun hot. I gace it three years of my time to try and integrate it into my life and I jsut couldn't get it to work right. In my current home I have a Morso 3610 (non CAT) and the thing runs very predicatably...one air control to fiddle with and it runs reasonably efficiently.
I might have just had a lousy CAT stove and its just soured me on the whole experience. As a kid my parents had an old VC Defiant...not sure if it was a CAT stove (it was the late 70's kind with iron doors, no glass)...if it was a CAT stove then my experience is 50/50 on two cat stoves and you just need to find one that works well.
I lean towards non-cat stoves myself. In my old house I had a VC Dutchwest Federal stove (CAT) and the thing was a pain to keep running properly. It required constant adjustment and it seemed to have two modes...either too cool to runt eh cat properly and my heat was running to keep the house warm, or it ran hot...like surface of the sun hot. I gace it three years of my time to try and integrate it into my life and I jsut couldn't get it to work right. In my current home I have a Morso 3610 (non CAT) and the thing runs very predicatably...one air control to fiddle with and it runs reasonably efficiently.
I might have just had a lousy CAT stove and its just soured me on the whole experience. As a kid my parents had an old VC Defiant...not sure if it was a CAT stove (it was the late 70's kind with iron doors, no glass)...if it was a CAT stove then my experience is 50/50 on two cat stoves and you just need to find one that works well.
Woods Dweller
New Member
karl,
I started a thread going on right now about dealers selling at 100% msrp.
I’m paying full list for the unit. Almost $6K with the the upgrade artisan hand hammered ($861 extra from basic black) face and doors. $7600 including new chimeny system, installation. and tax. One positive for this unit is that the chimney system isn't too expensive. I did save the $500 they wanted to dissasemble my old chimney and remove the fireplace. Was a bit of work, but i wanted to make sure the stone didn’t get damaged. Plus I’m thrifty (my wife says cheap!) and wasn’t about to pay $500 when I knew I could do the work. I’ll let the pros install the new unit for warranty, insurance, and legal matters.
I wanted a big firebox for a few reasons. One being I have a big space to fill and because of that...I can! Some people are restricted to how big they can go. I was ready to go with the Napoleon High Country NZ6000 which has the biggest firebox out there @ 4.8 SF. It is a heating monster! But when I downloaded the install manual to check it out, learned that it required metal studs and metal studs a good ways up the front wall above the fireplace too. Probably because they claim to produce 100,000 + BTU under perfect conditions. The metal studs killed it for me. Can't do it with solid log walls.
I have an install date of 9/08/08. I'm ready! I'm a little iffy on the cat, but most of the reviews I've read on the 44 are very good.
I started a thread going on right now about dealers selling at 100% msrp.
I’m paying full list for the unit. Almost $6K with the the upgrade artisan hand hammered ($861 extra from basic black) face and doors. $7600 including new chimeny system, installation. and tax. One positive for this unit is that the chimney system isn't too expensive. I did save the $500 they wanted to dissasemble my old chimney and remove the fireplace. Was a bit of work, but i wanted to make sure the stone didn’t get damaged. Plus I’m thrifty (my wife says cheap!) and wasn’t about to pay $500 when I knew I could do the work. I’ll let the pros install the new unit for warranty, insurance, and legal matters.
I wanted a big firebox for a few reasons. One being I have a big space to fill and because of that...I can! Some people are restricted to how big they can go. I was ready to go with the Napoleon High Country NZ6000 which has the biggest firebox out there @ 4.8 SF. It is a heating monster! But when I downloaded the install manual to check it out, learned that it required metal studs and metal studs a good ways up the front wall above the fireplace too. Probably because they claim to produce 100,000 + BTU under perfect conditions. The metal studs killed it for me. Can't do it with solid log walls.
I have an install date of 9/08/08. I'm ready! I'm a little iffy on the cat, but most of the reviews I've read on the 44 are very good.
Here's a picture of my FX 44 Elite......
Also a couple of pictures of the chimney with the CAT disengaged and then engaged. These 2 pictures were taken within 10 minutes of eachother even though the exposure makes it look like different times of the day.
Y
Also a couple of pictures of the chimney with the CAT disengaged and then engaged. These 2 pictures were taken within 10 minutes of eachother even though the exposure makes it look like different times of the day.
Y
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Woods Dweller
New Member
Good looking fireplace younstr
With less smoke emission with the cat, how do you do with chimney cleanings? I would think it would be much cleaner than a non-cat.
What about the fire burn. I've had people with cats say that the flame is "lazy"...what does the burn look like? I've burned non-cat wood stoves and love the look and the heat.
And, since I'm being a question nag, what goes on with the cat when the fire burns down below the kick-in temp?
With less smoke emission with the cat, how do you do with chimney cleanings? I would think it would be much cleaner than a non-cat.
What about the fire burn. I've had people with cats say that the flame is "lazy"...what does the burn look like? I've burned non-cat wood stoves and love the look and the heat.
And, since I'm being a question nag, what goes on with the cat when the fire burns down below the kick-in temp?
North of 60
Minister of Fire
The cat temp drops when the fuel/smoke is gone so there is nothing for the cat to do but cool down until you feed it again. Once most cats are lit they will stay lit down to 250f and will take off from there on another load. Most stack temps on cat units settle down around 250f while the stove top can be up at 500f.
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