1908 cathedral ceiling room needs better heat? pellet? wood stove? suggestions?

dan&donna · Dec 21, 2008

Hi, we bought a house in New York recently and are trying to decide what is the best way to heat this beautiful room, attached image. The ceilings are about 18 ft, the room itself is about 20 x 25, and flows into an open floor plan on the 1st floor with a balconied loft library above. The room has radiators that are oil, and at least the heating oil price is down from, $3.99 to 2.69, but the main problem is due to the high ceilings and the cathedral lead glass windows the heat, located at the base of the windows either rises or escapes. the other rooms in the house heat well. the library loft gets most of the room's heat.

So we are working on the window issue, looking to have some inner double glass 'storm windows' made with frames to insert where the old screen used to be...
but we need to supplement the heat by either a pellet or wood stove fireplace insert or some kind of one of these built into the fireplace on either side or where the book shelves are ... or ....

The radiators work, but only within a few feet proximity (our cat loves them). we would love to hear suggestions based on experience. when the temp is under 25 outside the central part of the room where people sit just will not heat up, so we thought something that would blow enough hot air directly into the area?

thanks,

dan & donna

offroadaudio · Dec 21, 2008

Ceiling fans will be a must no matter what you decide. You need to establish a strong convection to get that hot air off of the ceiling.
Also, consider posting this in the boiler room as well, because I'm wondering if you can use an outdoor wood boiler to heat water and use those radiators at full blast?

derbygreg · Dec 21, 2008

We have 17.5 foot ceilings with a loft, one wall of our house has 10 foot high windows. Our great room is not always as warm as we like. Both you and I heat a lot more space in one room than most people on here. People post on here all the time how they heat 2500 square feet with a little stove. I always wonder if they have 7 foot ceilings or the like.

I agree Ceiling Fans are a must as they help a lot.

I would strongly suggest a free standing stove and a big one at that.

Beautiful room.

wellbuilt home · Dec 21, 2008

Wow that's a great room , I can see a hearthstone Equinox sitting out in front of your fire place. I have a EQ sitting in a room about 20 x44x 10' and open to my foyer in the front( of the house. ( 5' opening) and open to the kitchen 14' in the back . I heat 3000+ sqf I have another 2000 feet i don't really heat in the dead of winter. I am planing to add a room just like yours next year 20x20x 26' height to the peak +- ,with the balcony opening up to the master bed room. I was hoping that the Eq could heat my whole house with the addition ,but no way . It will heat your room nicely with a ceiling fan . I hope you have lots of insulation and covering the windows with glass is a good move . If your radiator covers had vents in the top they would fan the windows with heat. This would keep the center of the room warmer. Your room looks like it needs one more radiator by the other window on the left. The radiator buy the stair case is to close to the house and is not adding heat to the room . The only problem with a wood stove is that some one has to feed it. John

begreen · Dec 21, 2008

Will the stove be a freestanding, new installation or is there a chimney already in the room? From the picture I can't tell what the black box at the back center of the room. Is that some sort of stove or is it furniture?

As beautiful as it is, the room needs insulation, glass storm windows and insulated curtains (or shades) more than anything. If it is going to be used a lot in winter, get a really nice looking stove that heats well. It will be the focal point of the room. If pellet, maybe go with something like a Quadrafire Mt. Vernon AE. If a wood stove, it looks like you will want a rear vent stove with at least a 2 cu ft firebox. Will the heat from the stove go into adjacent rooms? If yes, then get a 2.5-3cu ft stove. Use a couple ceiling fans to help break up heat stratification. Set them to blow in reverse (upward) for winter operation.

LLigetfa · Dec 21, 2008

What is under that room? Is the underside of the floor accessible? Under-floor radiant heat would be the best solution but as far as an in room wood heater goes, a fireplace insert with central heat blower and ductwork would help to distrubute the heat. It looks like there may be a ceiling fan but it's too close to the ceiling. You need to drop the fans down about four feet.

Macrovertigo · Dec 23, 2008

As an artist who has worked with a fair share of architects and decorators, my first reaction to the photo accompanying your post is that whoever designed that nice room with such a dinky afterthought of a fireplace, should be made to sit in it - in just a T-shirt, and until his fingers turn cold. The other people calling attention here to the importance of controlling the circulation of any heated air in this room are absolutely right since that is always going to be part of the solution, your project is how to accomplish that effectively and agreeably. I say go for the beefiest pellet stove that you can fit into that room (get a nice one, you will be looking at it and maintaining it for years), either in a location dedicated to it (since the venting issues in a pellet stove are so different than for a regular fireplace), or as an insert to give the anemic fireplace a raison d'etre. Frankly, this room is calling out for a proper fancy tile stove like they have in rooms in old homes in northern Europe, they are called kachel ovens too. If you have ever seen a period movie, with a scene in a room where there is an odd pile of baroque stuff with no other reason to be there, that is probably a kachel oven. Put into that fine room a kachel oven and turn the undersized fireplace into a hidden safe.

Macrovertigo · Dec 23, 2008

Hi Dan and Donna, aside from the matter of what kind of heating source to choose, here is a free idea for a handsome and effective solution to some part of the heating challenge of that room if your budget has room for it.
As a way to deal with the under-scaled fireplace, and as a way to build into the room a serious duct work system to really move warmed air from the highest part to the center of the room at gathering/party level, I recommend building a false architectural fireplace surround, hood and sloping face above it, that takes charge of the space allotted to the fireplace on that wall, mimicking more completely the "great room" look, (at some point you may want to commission me to paint it to look like 200 year old cut and dressed french limestone, lol). There will be an intake port at the top of this false front, as near the ceiling as possible, with a direct drop to the base of the structure, from where the heated air will be diffused into the room at or near floor level, with a blower. (An appropriately-sized blower that is the correct HVAC-rated blower for this application would ideally be sited very low in the duct and near the opening where the heated air is sent into the room, not near the upper opening).
Do you have the option of a solar hot water collector outside to preheat the water in an under floor radiant heating setup?

pelletizer · Dec 23, 2008

Big nice quality wood burning stove and ceiling fans, Even though I have a pellet stove and have seen friends pellet stoves in action I feel a pellet stove will not work as well as a wood burning stove. I have had a wood stove and they produce more heat easy.
Also that room will be an echo chamber for pellet stove blower motors, In that room I would rather have a roaring crackling fire.

potter · Dec 23, 2008

LLigetfa said:
What is under that room? Is the underside of the floor accessible? Under-floor radiant heat would be the best solution but as far as an in room wood heater goes, a fireplace insert with central heat blower and ductwork would help to distrubute the heat. It looks like there may be a ceiling fan but it's too close to the ceiling. You need to drop the fans down about four feet.

I agree- infloor and then wood fire for pleasure. We have in floor in our studio/workshop with 18' Cathedral ceilings comfortable and efficient . Avoids the heat stratification. So the floors are the radiator you cozy up to. Look at Munchkin boilers and similar products...

Tudorman · Dec 23, 2008

Macrovertigo said:
Hi Dan and Donna, aside from the matter of what kind of heating source to choose, here is a free idea for a handsome and effective solution to some part of the heating challenge of that room if your budget has room for it.
As a way to deal with the under-scaled fireplace, and as a way to build into the room a serious duct work system to really move warmed air from the highest part to the center of the room at gathering/party level, I recommend building a false architectural fireplace surround, hood and sloping face above it, that takes charge of the space allotted to the fireplace on that wall, mimicking more completely the "great room" look, (at some point you may want to commission me to paint it to look like 200 year old cut and dressed french limestone, lol). There will be an intake port at the top of this false front, as near the ceiling as possible, with a direct drop to the base of the structure, from where the heated air will be diffused into the room at or near floor level, with a blower. (An appropriately-sized blower that is the correct HVAC-rated blower for this application would ideally be sited very low in the duct and near the opening where the heated air is sent into the room, not near the upper opening).
Do you have the option of a solar hot water collector outside to preheat the water in an under floor radiant heating setup?

MV, your comments regarding the scale of the fireplace are spot on and after taking another look at the photo, I wonder if there is a large firebox hiding behind a false front. I wouldn't be surprised if a previous owner blocked off the firebox and added that prefab unit.

Macrovertigo · Dec 23, 2008

I wonder if there is a large firebox hiding behind a false front. I wouldn’t be surprised if a previous owner blocked off the firebox and added that prefab unit.

Something is definitely up with that wall, the portion above the existing fireplace looks like it was designed to relate to something below it aside from the existing fireplace - like a more generous fireplace. I like the idea of keeping a fireplace for the look and feel, along with a serious heating system, if you additionally decide to install some kind of duct to channel the warm high air to the bottom of the room you will have a comfortable space. As an earlier poster pointed out, you will have to have those ceiling fans whipping around like a cartoon for them to have any effect on convection - they will work, but it will feel like a wind tunnel (and the subliminal impact of high-speed whirling blades will not relax anyone). My experience has been that air allows itself to be drawn by a fan or blower without hesitation, but it is not easily pushed by the same fan or blower.

By the way, that odd fireplace and it's setting keep drawing my attention for some reason. Open that wall above the 'condo unit" fireplace, and also try to get behind it and below it, and tell us what you find, (you will have to change it for esthetic reasons one of these days anyway). It looks like this fireplace was an afterthought or an expedient choice rather than a best choice, and that should ring an alarm for you - to suspect that it is hiding something else that is less than desireable. It may be entirely up to code, but the fact that they went with it rather than to do what the room calls for, suggests that there may be other compromises beneath it. Compromises are fine, as long as they do not involve a firebox.

I would be willing to bet that the original fireplace front that was ever designed for this space, or for which this room may even have been designed, was removed and sold or taken along with the furniture. The top of the original fireplace opening would have been much higher, between the bottom and the middle of the white rectangle that is desperately trying to belong in the space right above the existing "condo unit" fireplace.

Tudorman · Dec 28, 2008

Macrovertigo said:
I wonder if there is a large firebox hiding behind a false front. I wouldn’t be surprised if a previous owner blocked off the firebox and added that prefab unit.

Something is definitely up with that wall, the portion above the existing fireplace looks like it was designed to relate to something below it aside from the existing fireplace - like a more generous fireplace. I like the idea of keeping a fireplace for the look and feel, along with a serious heating system, if you additionally decide to install some kind of duct to channel the warm high air to the bottom of the room you will have a comfortable space. As an earlier poster pointed out, you will have to have those ceiling fans whipping around like a cartoon for them to have any effect on convection - they will work, but it will feel like a wind tunnel (and the subliminal impact of high-speed whirling blades will not relax anyone). My experience has been that air allows itself to be drawn by a fan or blower without hesitation, but it is not easily pushed by the same fan or blower.

By the way, that odd fireplace and it's setting keep drawing my attention for some reason. Open that wall above the 'condo unit" fireplace, and also try to get behind it and below it, and tell us what you find, (you will have to change it for esthetic reasons one of these days anyway). It looks like this fireplace was an afterthought or an expedient choice rather than a best choice, and that should ring an alarm for you - to suspect that it is hiding something else that is less than desireable. It may be entirely up to code, but the fact that they went with it rather than to do what the room calls for, suggests that there may be other compromises beneath it. Compromises are fine, as long as they do not involve a firebox.

I would be willing to bet that the original fireplace front that was ever designed for this space, or for which this room may even have been designed, was removed and sold or taken along with the furniture. The top of the original fireplace opening would have been much higher, between the bottom and the middle of the white rectangle that is desperately trying to belong in the space right above the existing "condo unit" fireplace.

There's some great looking fireplaces here. That room deserves something special.

www.tudorartisans.com

TreePapa · Dec 28, 2008

Are you going to hold square dance parties in that room or are formal balls more your style? Seriously, that is a dance hall you have there. A big wood stove in the center would, of course, distribute the heat best but obviously would disturb the "flow" of the room. What is on the other (closer) end of the room? Would stoves on both ends be practical and within your budget? You know, like the old castle great halls had multiple fireplaces to keep warm?

I second the ideas of ceiling fans (probably at least two for that room and maybe three), dropped down several feet from the ceiling and turning slowly in reverse during the heating season. I also think that insulated curtains will help a great deal, though you may wish to draw them open when you have large gatherings for dramatic effect. But as far as "inner glass" or some other type of add-on insulated glass, you'll want to weigh the effect on the architectural integrity of the room vs. the gain in insulation. Those are dramatic windows and you don't want to add something that will look like an add on.

Good luck and post pics of the room when you're done.

Peace,
- Sequoia

wolfkiller · Dec 28, 2008

I see one of those big soapstone stove + hearth.

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1908 cathedral ceiling room needs better heat? pellet? wood stove? suggestions?

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