Do you think most stove burners dont burn right?

nojo. That's a good point. Being new to the wood heating world, I have learned a lot. However, my grade 2 science class told me that when wood hisses it's wet. My Chemistry degree told me I would be a fool to burn wet wood.

I will have approximately 2 cords left after this winter and already had 5 cut for next winter and the winter after that.

I have had my stove top to 850F (a wee bit high). It normally stays around 600-700.

A

It doesn't take long to figure out wet wood sucks no matter what stove you have but I guess some people like to learn the hard way.

Do you think most stove burners dont burn right?

Yes

Gets pretty old. Some people I explain it all once and it clicks and then we are done, they leave me alone. Other people, I have to go out to their house more than once. Usually one of the times I have to climb up on their roof and scrape a gallon of creosote out of their cap before they get the idea. Last guy asked if that was normal, I bluntly replied, "No".

Here's a t-shirt you can share with people:



Shari

oldspark said:

It doesn't take long to figure out wet wood sucks no matter what stove you have but I guess some people like to learn the hard way.

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Lotta "old sparks" around here who've never burned anything else. They think I'm a loony suburban transplant who's got silly ideas and just making trouble for myself by insisting I need to dry my wood before burning it. I've had any number of them tell me quite patronizingly that green wood produces *more* heat than dry. Some folks I know don't even bother to cut down a tree until they're running short on firewood. They've been doing it that way their whole lives, following the practice of their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. So who am I to come swanning in here and tell them they're doing it all wrong? I can only feel sorry about the incredible amount of extra effort they have to go through to cut enough wood to stay warm through the winter with green fuel and ancient, wildly inefficient old smoke dragon stoves. Old habits and tradition are incredibly persistent.

gyrfalcon said:

Old habits and tradition are incredibly persistent.

Click to expand...

Stated most graciously...

gyrfalcon said:

oldspark said:

It doesn't take long to figure out wet wood sucks no matter what stove you have but I guess some people like to learn the hard way.

Click to expand...

Lotta "old sparks" around here who've never burned anything else. They think I'm a loony suburban transplant who's got silly ideas and just making trouble for myself by insisting I need to dry my wood before burning it. I've had any number of them tell me quite patronizingly that green wood produces *more* heat than dry. Some folks I know don't even bother to cut down a tree until they're running short on firewood. They've been doing it that way their whole lives, following the practice of their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. So who am I to come swanning in here and tell them they're doing it all wrong? I can only feel sorry about the incredible amount of extra effort they have to go through to cut enough wood to stay warm through the winter with green fuel and ancient, wildly inefficient old smoke dragon stoves. Old habits and tradition are incredibly persistent.

Click to expand...

I have only been on this forum for a short period of time and the fact that so many of you seem to think a lot of us older people burnt wet wood surprises me, at one time I had a lot of friends that burnt wood and they all knew wood needed to be cured but may be we are just a little smarter in Iowa.

oldspark said:

gyrfalcon said:

oldspark said:

It doesn't take long to figure out wet wood sucks no matter what stove you have but I guess some people like to learn the hard way.

Click to expand...

Lotta "old sparks" around here who've never burned anything else. They think I'm a loony suburban transplant who's got silly ideas and just making trouble for myself by insisting I need to dry my wood before burning it. I've had any number of them tell me quite patronizingly that green wood produces *more* heat than dry. Some folks I know don't even bother to cut down a tree until they're running short on firewood. They've been doing it that way their whole lives, following the practice of their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. So who am I to come swanning in here and tell them they're doing it all wrong? I can only feel sorry about the incredible amount of extra effort they have to go through to cut enough wood to stay warm through the winter with green fuel and ancient, wildly inefficient old smoke dragon stoves. Old habits and tradition are incredibly persistent.

Click to expand...

I have only been on this forum for a short period of time and the fact that so many of you seem to think a lot of us older people burnt wet wood surprises me, at one time I had a lot of friends that burnt wood and they all knew wood needed to be cured but may be we are just a little smarter in Iowa.

Click to expand...

That could well be! But all I can do is tell you what my experience is. I don't think the people -- young and old -- around here burn green wood, I know they do. Haven't yet found a single person, other than the retired scientist from Connecticut who lives on the next road, who burn anything else.

"Old sparks" not meant as a slam, but as a term of respect. (I have no resemblance to a spring chicken myself!) Folks who've been keeping themselves warm through VT winters with wood for 60 years or so are going on their experience, and it's not to be sniffed at, especially by somebody who's only been burning for a few years. So I was just gently objecting to the idea that only inexperienced idiots would burn green wood. There are a lot of very wise, very experienced country people who do it, too.

This is related to the "got enough wood?" joke poked at me from time to time. It shouldn't be too hard to understand that not all of the wood in my yard is for immediate use. I'm NOT insane for wanting to get another cord split and stacked soon, even though there's still 2 cords in the yard. My neighborhood, however, is filled with "split as needed" burners.

nojo said:

I ask this becuase most of the wood stove burners I know insist that their wood is fine, but it clearly hisses and puts out a lot of smoke, which they say is just what the stove does. You know the type that think a 400 stove top temp is way too hot. I had one guy complaining to me the other day that his stove wont heat his house. Its a hearthstone and he said it wont get hot. He also said he's burning oak he cut down last spring. I mentioned that might be the problem and he said what everyone else says that it sat all summer so its good and seasoned. He said sometimes he can get his stove really hot (the thermometer on top says 400) and it still doenst heat well. I mentioned he should aim for about 550-600 and he told me its not good for soapstone stoves to get hotter than 400 because they crack...

I dunno it just kind of bugs me that most people I know with woodstoves (even good EPA stoves) let them smoke all day, think wood seasons in log form over a summer and all that good stuff.


rrrr

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Trying to maintain right at 550-600 could be problematic for him.. and my owners manual states above 600 measured on the center top stone is an overfire. I do in fact run between 350-450 with the blower running, and if I turn the blower off, it will settle in about 100 degrees higher. I have taken it right to 600 a couple times, and it's hot. But I am using a lot of cherry right now, and I note that compared to when I had oak or maple in the box, cherry just won't run up as easily.

Not only must your wood be seasoned but it must be dry also, it has been so wet here this fall and winter that my good seasoned wood soaked up moisture and to get it to burn good I have been bringing it into the garage to dry it out and yes my wood has been under cover outside.You think your wood is good until you burn it in a epa stove or fireplace then you have to re think that but when you get it right it is great.

gyrfalcon said:

oldspark said:

gyrfalcon said:

oldspark said:

It doesn't take long to figure out wet wood sucks no matter what stove you have but I guess some people like to learn the hard way.

Click to expand...

Lotta "old sparks" around here who've never burned anything else. They think I'm a loony suburban transplant who's got silly ideas and just making trouble for myself by insisting I need to dry my wood before burning it. I've had any number of them tell me quite patronizingly that green wood produces *more* heat than dry. Some folks I know don't even bother to cut down a tree until they're running short on firewood. They've been doing it that way their whole lives, following the practice of their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. So who am I to come swanning in here and tell them they're doing it all wrong? I can only feel sorry about the incredible amount of extra effort they have to go through to cut enough wood to stay warm through the winter with green fuel and ancient, wildly inefficient old smoke dragon stoves. Old habits and tradition are incredibly persistent.

Click to expand...

I have only been on this forum for a short period of time and the fact that so many of you seem to think a lot of us older people burnt wet wood surprises me, at one time I had a lot of friends that burnt wood and they all knew wood needed to be cured but may be we are just a little smarter in Iowa.

Click to expand...

That could well be! But all I can do is tell you what my experience is. I don't think the people -- young and old -- around here burn green wood, I know they do. Haven't yet found a single person, other than the retired scientist from Connecticut who lives on the next road, who burn anything else.

"Old sparks" not meant as a slam, but as a term of respect. (I have no resemblance to a spring chicken myself!) Folks who've been keeping themselves warm through VT winters with wood for 60 years or so are going on their experience, and it's not to be sniffed at, especially by somebody who's only been burning for a few years. So I was just gently objecting to the idea that only inexperienced idiots would burn green wood. There are a lot of very wise, very experienced country people who do it, too.

Click to expand...

Wow, I did not fully understand what you were saying, and I am surprised, when I started to burn wood about 33 years ago I burnt some green wood because that was all I had and it just did not work very well at all even in the "stoves that burn anything" so I make every effort to get the wood cut split and stacked as soon as I can.

Not being from VA some of the species here are new to me. I was talking to the guy who sold me my firewood. He said people here burn freshly cut locust. I just dropped my jaw. He sold me mostly locust and cherry, and some maple and another species. I definitely see a difference on the thermometer when burning these different woods. The locust is really heavy and burns like a blast furnace. But overall leaving my air intake wide open my temps just cruise around 450-550 on this Homestead. Depends on how full the firebox is, too.

Here's an interesting quote from the Elm manual-

GREENWOOD VS. DRYWOOD

It is not always true that the drier the fuel the less creosote will form in your chimney. In a report, "Greenwood and Wood Moisture Content," by Dr. Jay Shelton, it is shown that wood fuel with a moisture content below 15-20% will actually increase (in some cases) the amount of creosote accumulation. The reason for this is that since dry wood requires less air for combustion people will turn the air controls down and severely restrict the air flow. On the other hand stove operators know green wood usually requires a substantial amount of air to burn so they open up the air controls. When air controls are opened up the in-coming rush of air will do three things;
1. It will draw heat up the chimney thus creating a warm flue.
2. It will dilute the smoke.
3. It will force the smoke to pass through the flue quickly.
All three of these conditions will aide in preventing smoke from condensing on the inside of the flue."

Having owned an Elm in the 90s I can attest to the draft the stove creates as smoke moves from front to back and up the flue, creating a raging fire. I have no idea what stoves Dr. Shelton referred to in his report. I doubt the above holds true for new EPA stoves. I could not hope to burn green wood in my Homestead with the draft system it has. On the other hand, Steve Slatter is able to basically vaporize fresh cut firewood in his newer Elms. Though that is wood added to a raging fire in the box.

I don't know about "most" but there sure seem to be many who are not burning as well as they could. However they seem to be burning good enough for their needs. Even those burning green wood they just cut down are happy enough if their house is warm and still standing I suppose. I wouldn't want to live near them though. In the morning when I drive the carpool for my kids I drive by many smoking chimneys that I imagine are folks doing just about that. It makes me sad for a number of reasons - the risks they are taking of a fire, the pollution in the air, the bad name they give all us burners, and the extra work they are making for themselves.

When I started about two years ago I turned to a friend of mine for advice (before finding hearth.com) and he gave me pointers to who to buy my wood from. I knew that seasoned wood was important, but didn't really know how to quantify 'seasoned' wood. I was more concerned about getting a full cord than anything as I assumed like so many others that the sellers would know seasoned and sell it that way - seemed easy enough. Bottom line is that it wasn't nearly as dry as it should have been - better than many folks get, but still just not quite there. Going back to my friend - he still thinks it is great wood and so on. This last summer we worked together to pull in a CL score of some oak that was about 8 months split. I figured it was for the following year - he looked at it as ready to burn. I re-split a few pieces and the MC was 28-30%. He burned it happy enough - it did have a couple months under cover to dry before winter but I don't imagine it really got much of that water out though. I don't know if I'll be able to convince him it is worth getting 2-3 years ahead - he's from a burning family and I'm the new guy after all eh? He won't burn pine since "The only time I've had a chimney fire was the one year I tried burning pine" - ummm.. ok. Guess his experience says it all eh?

Yes, I would estimate that 5-10x as many people burn wet/green wood as dry/seasoned wood in my area. Most of them are burning in old, pre-epa fireboxes.

nojo said:

I ask this becuase most of the wood stove burners I know insist that their wood is fine, but it clearly hisses and puts out a lot of smoke, which they say is just what the stove does. You know the type that think a 400 stove top temp is way too hot. I had one guy complaining to me the other day that his stove wont heat his house. Its a hearthstone and he said it wont get hot. He also said he's burning oak he cut down last spring. I mentioned that might be the problem and he said what everyone else says that it sat all summer so its good and seasoned. He said sometimes he can get his stove really hot (the thermometer on top says 400) and it still doenst heat well. I mentioned he should aim for about 550-600 and he told me its not good for soapstone stoves to get hotter than 400 because they crack...

I dunno it just kind of bugs me that most people I know with woodstoves (even good EPA stoves) let them smoke all day, think wood seasons in log form over a summer and all that good stuff.

rrrr

Click to expand...

Yes, I do think that most wood stove burners do not burn right.

1. Some have absolutely no clue as to proper practices.

2. Naturally, the fuel has be in the equation too. As was stated on this forum by someone, even when folks finally realize that their wood is not as dry as it should be, they are very reluctant to admit it. After all, they bought the best from a well respected wood seller and he told them that it was good seasoned wood. Not until they burn dry wood will they see the light.

3. Most folks don't even know what type of wood they have.

4. Most folks have no idea how to season wood nor do they realize the length of time it requires.

5. A lot of folks (like Jake) use a hydraulic splitter in the horizontal mode rather than vertically thereby causing themselves a lot of extra hard work.

6. The practices of controlling the stove: I read too often about folks who can't get their stoves hot enough....even with the draft fully opened! No wonder the stove won't get hot because too much heat is going up the chimney. There can be many other examples.

7. Poor installs; dirty chimneys, etc.


A good example is that fellow who can't seem to get his stove to 400 degrees and thinks that is really hot. Well, it is hot to touch, but not hot for a wood heating stove. And what about that soapstone cracking? I think the only way it would crack would be by hitting it too hard with a log or some other object or by heating it up too fast, especially after setting cold all summer. Otherwise that soapstone can take a tremendously high temperature.

"6. The practices of controlling the stove: I read too often about folks who can’t get their stoves hot enough….even with the draft fully opened! No wonder the stove won’t get hot because too much heat is going up the chimney. There can be many other examples."

Could you add some explanation to that?

Simple. Full draft gives more air. That air has to go somewhere and that somewhere is directly up the chimney taking most of the heat with it. Much better to close the draft some after the fire gets established.

You might try an experiment which has never failed for me. Especially when starting a cold stove. One time do it your way and time it. It is also best to have a thermometer on the stove top and also one on the flue so you can see exactly what is happening. The next time you start with a cold stove, leave the draft open full for perhaps 10-15 minutes and then dial the draft down to about half. You should see a difference in the amount of heat the stove gives and that heat will come much faster with this method.

Hey guys,
I'm going to play devils advocate here a little bit. This is just something I learned from my own experiences. I totally agree that alot of folks aren't burning dry enough wood. I just installed a fireplace last summer so this is my first year burning. I had a pile of wood stacked a year before I ever bought the fireplace though (although not enough) but that was just because I used to burn wood many years ago and learned from that. However, what I encountered when looking for a fireplace really surprised me. I had the upper hand of earlier experiences and also because I was paying attention here at hearth.com. And by the way, I highly recommend hearth.com to absolutely everyone I can because so much valuable information and help is here.
Here is what I was amazed at though, Out of 7 different fireplace dealers that I looked at woodstoves & fireplaces, only one of them did the gentleman tell me to "quit looking and get cutting". Honestly, he told me a fireplace was a fantastic investment, but to hold off for awhile, get the wood cut & split for the first year, and while the wood was seasoning, then make the final decisions. He didn't know I already had the wood cut and split, but I recognized his advice as good and that's who I ended up buying my RSF Opel from.
I had at least three sellers tell me that their fireplaces would burn "anything", one went so far as to say his unit could burn even green wood. I was also at one dealership and mentioned I almost drove right past their place of business because I couldn't see their sign and the man I talked with told me that tree was scheduled to come down a week later and in two weeks they would be burning it in their displays. I also had two dealers that started fires for me in their units, (one did and one tryed) one used kindling and smaller pieces and his fired right up, another used pieces of oak that looked like they had been split that morning and they were huge! Even with 5 firestarters in the box he never did get that fireplace started while I was there. I saw jtp10181's post above that no matter how many times he told some folks, they simply didn't get it. I honestly think that's why alot of folks don't get it, because while some guys like jtp would be great salesmen and give the correct advice, I think alot of the guys are simply there to make the sale, and they couldn't care less if you've been educated enough about how to use it. If I had to go back and pick out the best part of my entire experience of buying a new fireplace, it would be talking to the dealer that I eventually bought one from. He took all the time needed to tell me about every part of the process. Keep in mind, I had the advantage of hearth.com and past experiences, but going through the entire process not knowing anything about fireplaces, you'd find it awfully hard to get it all figured out without anyone mentioning it. In a perfect world, everyone would find hearth.com and it would be smooth sailing after that!

REF1 said:

Not being from VA some of the species here are new to me. I was talking to the guy who sold me my firewood. He said people here burn freshly cut locust. I just dropped my jaw. He sold me mostly locust and cherry, and some maple and another species. I definitely see a difference on the thermometer when burning these different woods. The locust is really heavy and burns like a blast furnace. But overall leaving my air intake wide open my temps just cruise around 450-550 on this Homestead. Depends on how full the firebox is, too.

Here's an interesting quote from the Elm manual-

GREENWOOD VS. DRYWOOD

It is not always true that the drier the fuel the less creosote will form in your chimney. In a report, "Greenwood and Wood Moisture Content," by Dr. Jay Shelton, it is shown that wood fuel with a moisture content below 15-20% will actually increase (in some cases) the amount of creosote accumulation. The reason for this is that since dry wood requires less air for combustion people will turn the air controls down and severely restrict the air flow. On the other hand stove operators know green wood usually requires a substantial amount of air to burn so they open up the air controls. When air controls are opened up the in-coming rush of air will do three things;
1. It will draw heat up the chimney thus creating a warm flue.
2. It will dilute the smoke.
3. It will force the smoke to pass through the flue quickly.
All three of these conditions will aide in preventing smoke from condensing on the inside of the flue."

Having owned an Elm in the 90s I can attest to the draft the stove creates as smoke moves from front to back and up the flue, creating a raging fire. I have no idea what stoves Dr. Shelton referred to in his report. I doubt the above holds true for new EPA stoves. I could not hope to burn green wood in my Homestead with the draft system it has. On the other hand, Steve Slatter is able to basically vaporize fresh cut firewood in his newer Elms. Though that is wood added to a raging fire in the box.

Click to expand...

I would think keeping your stack temp it the correct range would compensate for many of the issues you listed.

oldspark said:

REF1 said:

Here's an interesting quote from the Elm manual-

GREENWOOD VS. DRYWOOD

It is not always true that the drier the fuel the less creosote will form in your chimney. In a report, "Greenwood and Wood Moisture Content," by Dr. Jay Shelton, it is shown that wood fuel with a moisture content below 15-20% will actually increase (in some cases) the amount of creosote accumulation. The reason for this is that since dry wood requires less air for combustion people will turn the air controls down and severely restrict the air flow. On the other hand stove operators know green wood usually requires a substantial amount of air to burn so they open up the air controls. When air controls are opened up the in-coming rush of air will do three things;
1. It will draw heat up the chimney thus creating a warm flue.
2. It will dilute the smoke.
3. It will force the smoke to pass through the flue quickly.
All three of these conditions will aide in preventing smoke from condensing on the inside of the flue."

Having owned an Elm in the 90s I can attest to the draft the stove creates as smoke moves from front to back and up the flue, creating a raging fire. I have no idea what stoves Dr. Shelton referred to in his report. I doubt the above holds true for new EPA stoves. I could not hope to burn green wood in my Homestead with the draft system it has. On the other hand, Steve Slatter is able to basically vaporize fresh cut firewood in his newer Elms. Though that is wood added to a raging fire in the box.

Click to expand...

I would think keeping your stack temp it the correct range would compensate for many of the issues you listed.

Click to expand...

Not to mention burning the smoke in the firebox instead of sending it up the chimney thus not having anything left to condense. No VOCs and very little water in the flue gases and you don't have much of anything to make creosote out of even if it does condense. Thus the other side of the equation (besides the efficiency) that is great about the advanced stove designs. If you don't have a stove capable of burning the smoke and you choke dry wood down to a smolder so it is sending smoke up a cold flue then yes I could see creosote building up, but that certainly isn't what I'm doing in my stove!

I don't know if that advice was ever sound or not, but I certainly find it hard to accept that it has much of any bearing on current stove designs. Even a stove that can "vaporize green wood" doesn't mean that it is efficiently getting heat into the area it is supposed to.

Well, Slatter's Elms do have secondary burn tubes on both sides of the stove. His youtube vids are pretty impressive on what goes on inside his stoves.

Burning Chunk,

I didn't know you had any trees in Iowa. All I ever saw was corn. I grew up in Nebraska, mostly near the South Dakota border. We just had buffalo chips. The advice of this forum was well understood even then: make sure the fuel supply is dry before trying to burn.

Bryan

Backwoods Savage said:

Simple. Full draft gives more air. That air has to go somewhere and that somewhere is directly up the chimney taking most of the heat with it. Much better to close the draft some after the fire gets established.

You might try an experiment which has never failed for me. Especially when starting a cold stove. One time do it your way and time it. It is also best to have a thermometer on the stove top and also one on the flue so you can see exactly what is happening. The next time you start with a cold stove, leave the draft open full for perhaps 10-15 minutes and then dial the draft down to about half. You should see a difference in the amount of heat the stove gives and that heat will come much faster with this method.

Click to expand...

Very good advice, Dennis, and rarely mentioned here.

Depending on the stove design, intake air can be drastically increased in velocity, as well as reducing the amount of excess air running through the stove. The same amount of combustion air is forced to pass through the more restricted opening, substantially increasing the speed of the airstream. Counter-intuitively, this can increase the rate of burn by increasing the temperature inside the burn zone (just like a blowpipe greatly increases the temp of a simple torch), producing a hotter, cleaner and more efficient burn, and at the same time, helping to keep the heat inside the stove by restricting the air at the inlet. This has been the principle of the airtight stove since its inception, to control air only at the inlet and eliminating the need for a flue pipe damper to keep the heat in the stove.