Deciding between Cat and Non-cat: advice?

This is a touchy subject I've come to learn.. and I preface my advise by stating that I'm a newb.. But I've owned both in my short time and my opinion is as follows..
Both are comparable in terms of cleanliness and efficiency.. so that wouldn't really enter into it in my opinion. I think catalytic stoves offer some advantages when you are trying to burn for a very long time so you want a large firebox.. but don't want the heat cranking because you don't have a lot of space to heat.

There is debate to whether or not a cat will give you more burning time out of the same amount of wood.. but if you really want long burns you need to burn a lot of wood slowly... Burning slow on a secondary burn stove isn't clean. With a CAT you can burn slow and keep it clean...

I wouldn't see any advantage to a small cat stove vs a small secondary burn stove.

Also, although I have NO experience with the Dutchwest... My recollection is that there are lots of compalints about the everburn system being very picky. Out of those two, I'd go non-cat. But you may be better off getting one of the Woodstock stoves if you don't mind the idea of a cat.. nothing but positives as far as I've ever heard.

marsfarmer said:

Ok folks, I'm an experienced burner looking at swapping out my '88 Jotul 3 for a new (to me) more efficient stove. I currently have my eye on 2 models and I can't decide which one will be most suitable for the drafty 2nd floor of my Victorian home. I'm currently heating the whole 1200 sq. ft area with the Jotul and there are definitely some "cold corners." I'm thinking that both of the stoves I picked would be a step up but would like to know the drawbacks of either choice.
The first stove is the catylitic Dutchwest 2460, their small cat stove. It's rated up to 1400 sq ft.
Second is the Dutchwest 2478, the medium non-cat model.
So, cat vs. non-cat? Cats sound more efficient, easier on the chimney. Non-cats seem easier to use and don't have to worry about replacing the expensive converter. The 2460 is the same size ( i think ) as my Jotul 3, so I can just switch 'em out, but a bigger stove appeals to me in terms of burn-time...
What do you all think of these 2 stoves?

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There are many, many stories about owners frustrations with the "Everburn" non-cat Dutchwest models. Not saying you should go cat, but I am saying you should think hard before going with the non-cat version of this stove.

If you are stuck with VC for some very very strange reason, then the cat version is far superior.

I have the 2460. It has heated my 1900 sq.ft. 2 story house for 15 years. The bottom level is a wide open floor plan and during spring and fall it is almost to much stove, but, during the coldest days it has too work xtra hard to keep up. For the majority though, 32*F-10*F it does the job with ease. For the coldest days I light the smoke dragon in the basement. I like the 2460, wouldn't have any other stove (that I've seen to this date). :zip:

Never had the non-cat version so I cannot comment on those.

Hardrockmaple said:

I have the 2460. It has heated my 1900 sq.ft. 2 story house for 15 years. The bottom level is a wide open floor plan and during spring and fall it is almost to much stove, but, during the coldest days it has too work xtra hard to keep up. For the majority though, 32*F-10*F it does the job with ease. For the coldest days I light the smoke dragon in the basement. I like the 2460, wouldn't have any other stove (that I've seen to this date). :zip:

Never had the non-cat version so I cannot comment on those.

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Wow that's a big house for the small Dutchwest.. You must have great insulation! I also agree if you are going to buy Dutchwest get the cat model too many horror stories with the non-cat everburn system.. Plus the cat stoves are very sturdy and hard to break...

Ray

marsfarmer said:

I love this forum! I got great help when I was installing Class A chimney 2 yrs. ago, good debates on seasoning wood, and now I'm getting the dirt on stoves. Now the "very very" strange reason I'm looking at these 2 stoves is simply that the price is right. All the other "EPA" stoves on craigslist are mucho dinero. I'm as much a sucker for high end stoves as the next pyro, but I've got to go with what's in my budget. That said, if folks think these are crappy stoves, don't hold back. I'd hate for this forum to get all polite on me. I can keep searching for that golden Morso in the sky...
Anyway, it sounds like the Non-cats have a bad rep and I'm hearing nice things about the 2460. Will it throw more heat than my old Jotul 3? It seems like it would, especially when I hear about the place in Nova Scotia. (best fish & chips in the world, btw) If it works up there it damn well better work down here in Rhode Island!

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If you have a medium home then the large is better and will give you 8-9 hr. over night burns.. A large home around 2000 sq. ft you need the XL Dutchwest.. I use the large for 1632 sq. ft.

Ray

raybonz said:

Hardrockmaple said:

I have the 2460. It has heated my 1900 sq.ft. 2 story house for 15 years. The bottom level is a wide open floor plan and during spring and fall it is almost to much stove, but, during the coldest days it has too work xtra hard to keep up. For the majority though, 32*F-10*F it does the job with ease. For the coldest days I light the smoke dragon in the basement. I like the 2460, wouldn't have any other stove (that I've seen to this date). :zip:

Never had the non-cat version so I cannot comment on those.

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Wow that's a big house for the small Dutchwest.. You must have great insulation! I also agree if you are going to buy Dutchwest get the cat model too many horror stories with the non-cat everburn system.. Plus the cat stoves are very sturdy and hard to break...

Ray

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The stove sits in the middle of the house. Right now it is 14*F outside and 73*F at the farthest point from the stove. Lotsa glass (solarium, sliding glass doors, bay windows etc). I attribute the heat to the 7 1/2 ft. ceilings and the heat retention of the 3 flu masonry chimney that runs up directly behind the stove. I've only burnt 3 cords of hardwood so far this heating season.

The only difference between the 2460 and the 2461 is the 2461 takes a 3 " longer stick.

I have no cat experience so am wondering what "replacing the expensive converter" cost would be, for an average stove. When I was searching for a large insert, I beleive none of them were cats.

I have been looking at the Dutchwest stoves for a 2nd stove install and based on what I have read, would pass on the non-cat DW, however, the cat versions sound pretty good to me. If you can get the large model, I think you'd be happier.

Good luck,
Bill

NextEndeavor said:

I have no cat experience so am wondering what "replacing the expensive converter" cost would be, for an average stove. When I was searching for a large insert, I beleive none of them were cats.

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For this stove which takes a common 6"x2" round cat they go between 100 and 130 for ceramic and 125 to 179 for the SS version. Woodstock Stoves gives the best deal on the SS cat for this size cat (125.00).. Not that expensive and they last many years..

Ray

NextEndeavor said:

I have no cat experience so am wondering what "replacing the expensive converter" cost would be, for an average stove. When I was searching for a large insert, I beleive none of them were cats.

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Blaze King has a Cat insert.

http://www.blazeking.com/wood-princess-insert.html

I'd probably stick with the Jotul.

We replaced our Osburn this year with a Blaze King Ultra catalytic stove and absolutely LOVE IT! It burns so efficiently and clean and long burns. I lit it for the first time after the install 3 weeks ago and it has burned constantly since. I have not had to clean the ashes yet and I get 14 hour burns with wood to spare every time. It has been -45 below and we are heating our 2240 sq foot house. I would recommend this stove to anyone.

marsfarmer said:

I'm currently heating 1200 sq. ft area. I'm thinking that both of the stoves I picked would be a step up but would like to know the drawbacks of either choice.
The first stove is the catylitic Dutchwest 2460, their small cat stove. It's rated up to 1400 sq ft.
Second is the Dutchwest 2478, the medium non-cat model.
So, cat vs. non-cat? Cats sound more efficient, easier on the chimney. Non-cats seem easier to use and don't have to worry about replacing the expensive converter. The 2460 is the same size ( i think ) as my Jotul 3, so I can just switch 'em out, but a bigger stove appeals to me in terms of burn-time...
What do you all think of these 2 stoves?

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I don't have any experience with Jotuls or the non-cat DW. But you make a good point, a bigger stove is a plus. I have a Large DW Cat 2461. I would recommend it highly. If the small is as good as the large I'd also recommend it. If you want to read about the cat Dutchwests go to the link at the bottom of my signature, you'll find lots of info there. Dutchwest owners comment on these stoves, both good and bad on that thread. The catalytic combustors are not that expensive, in fact you'll probably save twice that money in wood consumption alone by having that cat. Nevermind chimney cleanings. If I were you I'd look for a used Large 2461 for your 1200 sq ft floor, but the small may do the job! I heated 1750 sq ft from an unfinished basement with my large.

Can you decscribe your chimney?
Height, type, location (central/exterior)
You need at least a 16' stack with the LG DW, as they need good draft to operate corectly. I'd assume tha small is similar.

marsfarmer said:

I have about 7 vertical feet of stovepipe going to an interior chase class A chimney that is about 15 ft. high.

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You should be good to go with a Dutchwest. I suggest though, the best money you can spend would be on cutting down on those drafts.

Adding to what Bobforsaken said in post #2:
I would agree to avoid the everburn technology. Everburn uses a similar gassification principle, and all the complexity of the catalytic stoves, but without the benefit of the catalyst. With the Avalon Arbor, I am constantly fighting to get the stove hot enough for the combustor to ignite. I lose a great deal of fuel and send a tremendous amount of smoke up the chimney before it takes off. Then in order to keep the combustor lit, I need to make sure I get more fuel in there at the right time.

Comparing the everburn stove, or cat, with the secondary-combustion of the Napoleon 1401 I also have, I would go with the Napoleon due to the simplicity, but that's based on MY preferences. The biggest downfall of the secondary-combustion stoves is that you get a big burst of heat for about 3 hours after loading, then it tapers off while you burn down the coals. The cat stoves are capable of delivering a more consistent, lower heat level than the secondary stoves. Should be about the same amount of heat as the secondary stove, just more evened out. For your drafty second floor, you probably will be happier with the cat, but err on the side of a larger-than-you-need stove rather than having one that's too small to deliver enough heat when running on low.

I don't think I could ever handle having a cat stove in our living room though. Because you basically have a firebox that is a smoke generator to feed the cat, you will not have a clean-looking fire and the glass will be gunked up with creosote if you burn on low. I am pretty much addicted to the beauty of the fire in the 1401, and a firebox that is absolutely free of any black soot or creosote. I also like being able to tell instantly what's going on with the stove just by taking a quick glance at the fire. With a cat, you have to go look at the thermometer.

ControlFreak said:

you will not have a clean-looking fire and the glass will be gunked up with creosote if you burn on low.

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I bought my stove used. I haven't seen it gunked up with creosote since the day I brought it home and put a load of dry wood in it, 40 hr burns included.

I'm burning a 2460 to heat a 2-room, 920 sq.ft. log cabin. The main room has one bad air leak that I haven't sealed yet, probably some other smaller ones (receptacles, etc,) the door could use new weatherstripping, and the exterior is just logs and concrete/aggregate wall board, no insulation. The bedroom is stick construction with insulation. If it's single digits and windy, I have to push the stove to maintain lower 60s in here. I recently picked up a blower, which helps considerably when it's cold. In milder conditions, I can maintain upper 60s and get long burn times. I loaded last night with small Oak splits and, ten hours later, had enough coals to easily fire the next load.
You describe a "drafty" house. Any way you can minimize the air infiltration? If not, I might be tempted to go with a bigger Dutchwest in your situation. A bigger firebox means the cat will stay lit and crank out heat longer on a low burn.

ControlFreak said:

Because you basically have a firebox that is a smoke generator to feed the cat, you will not have a clean-looking fire and the glass will be gunked up with creosote if you burn on low.

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Never have that problem with my stove, but dry wood is required.

marsfarmer said:

I'm kind of stuck in huge old window limbo. They're pricey to replace, time-consuming to restore, and free wood dulls the pain.

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Have you considered the clear film that sticks to the double-sided tape around the window frame? You can't even see it, and you'll cut the breeze to zero.

ControlFreak said:

Adding to what Bobforsaken said in post #2:
I would agree to avoid the everburn technology. Everburn uses a similar gassification principle, and all the complexity of the catalytic stoves, but without the benefit of the catalyst. With the Avalon Arbor, I am constantly fighting to get the stove hot enough for the combustor to ignite. I lose a great deal of fuel and send a tremendous amount of smoke up the chimney before it takes off. Then in order to keep the combustor lit, I need to make sure I get more fuel in there at the right time.

Comparing the everburn stove, or cat, with the secondary-combustion of the Napoleon 1401 I also have, I would go with the Napoleon due to the simplicity, but that's based on MY preferences. The biggest downfall of the secondary-combustion stoves is that you get a big burst of heat for about 3 hours after loading, then it tapers off while you burn down the coals. The cat stoves are capable of delivering a more consistent, lower heat level than the secondary stoves. Should be about the same amount of heat as the secondary stove, just more evened out. For your drafty second floor, you probably will be happier with the cat, but err on the side of a larger-than-you-need stove rather than having one that's too small to deliver enough heat when running on low.

I don't think I could ever handle having a cat stove in our living room though. Because you basically have a firebox that is a smoke generator to feed the cat, you will not have a clean-looking fire and the glass will be gunked up with creosote if you burn on low. I am pretty much addicted to the beauty of the fire in the 1401, and a firebox that is absolutely free of any black soot or creosote. I also like being able to tell instantly what's going on with the stove just by taking a quick glance at the fire. With a cat, you have to go look at the thermometer.

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Whoa!


It is very obvious that either you have never burned with a cat stove of if so, you must have been trying to burn green wood in it.

We have a cat stove and:
1. We also are able to enjoy the beauty of the fire that is absolutely free of any black soot or creosote.
2. We too like being able to tell instantly what's going on with the stove just by taking a quick look.
3. We do not have to look at the thermometer to see what is going on inside the firebox.

I do hope you have not led other readers wrong with your opinion on cat stoves. Many of us have cat stoves and we enjoy the same benefits that you describe in addition to many others you have not described. So, as for me and my house, we'll continue to burn our cat stove and enjoy the beauty of it and also the fact that we don't get dirty glass nor is our firebox filled with smoke. In fact, I've never seen our firebox filled with smoke! It is an extremely clean and pretty burn.