Help for a newbie

speedy5966 · Mar 30, 2011

OK, looking for general advice on whether or not to even buy an insert. We just purchased our home about a year ago. After reading a lot on the internet, we decided to change from all electric, to a propane furnace, believing that it would be cheaper than electric. Since natural gas isn't available here, we bought a tank, and I ran all of the lines myself (we're not inside city limits, so no code folks to worry about). I asked both the propane company and the furnace installer to check it for leaks and proper install, and both said it looked as though a pro had done it. All that work, and $2100 for the furnace and install, and I am convinced that we made a mistake. $360 to fill the tank, and we went through it in a MONTH! And this is Texas! So anyway, my goal in posting here, is to not repeat my earlier mistake. I'd like to install a wood burning fireplace insert in place of our current traditional fireplace. What I want to know is, can I really expect to provide most of the heat for my 2200 Sq Ft home with a wood burning insert with a blower? I understand that since I have a single story home, which is basically a ranch style, that I will need fans and/or vents between rooms, in order to get the heat throughout the house. That's no problem. What I don't want to do, is go to all the work and $$ of researching/finding/buying/installing the insert, only to have it not provide very much heat. We currently have a "factory built" fireplace, with an 8 inch pipe, and the chase is brick, on the exterior of the house, with an 8 inch liner. It looks nice, but it doesn't provide much heat. Also, we occasionally get smoke in the house, which I hope will be eliminated with the insert, since I understand they are basically air tight.

All that being said, here are my questions(for now):
1) will a good insert with a blower and say, a 70,000 BTU rating effectively provide a substantial amount of heat in my home?
2) will the insert solve, or at least drastically reduce, the smoke in the house?
3) If a particular insert calls for a 6 inch exhaust pipe diameter, is it OK to go larger?

If it does indeed seem like my expectations are reasonable, I may then get more measurements and other specifics, and ask for help in deciding on a make/model/type.
Thanks!!

certified106 · Mar 30, 2011

speedy5966 said:
OK, looking for general advice on whether or not to even buy an insert. We just purchased our home about a year ago. After reading a lot on the internet, we decided to change from all electric, to a propane furnace, believing that it would be cheaper than electric. Since natural gas isn't available here, we bought a tank, and I ran all of the lines myself (we're not inside city limits, so no code folks to worry about). I asked both the propane company and the furnace installer to check it for leaks and proper install, and both said it looked as though a pro had done it. All that work, and $2100 for the furnace and install, and I am convinced that we made a mistake. $360 to fill the tank, and we went through it in a MONTH! And this is Texas! So anyway, my goal in posting here, is to not repeat my earlier mistake. I'd like to install a wood burning fireplace insert in place of our current traditional fireplace. What I want to know is, can I really expect to provide most of the heat for my 2200 Sq Ft home with a wood burning insert with a blower? I understand that since I have a single story home, which is basically a ranch style, that I will need fans and/or vents between rooms, in order to get the heat throughout the house. That's no problem. What I don't want to do, is go to all the work and $$ of researching/finding/buying/installing the insert, only to have it not provide very much heat. We currently have a "factory built" fireplace, with an 8 inch pipe, and the chase is brick, on the exterior of the house, with an 8 inch liner. It looks nice, but it doesn't provide much heat. Also, we occasionally get smoke in the house, which I hope will be eliminated with the insert, since I understand they are basically air tight.

All that being said, here are my questions(for now):
1) will a good insert with a blower and say, a 70,000 BTU rating effectively provide a substantial amount of heat in my home?
Your furnace is probably close to 120,000 btus and runs for short periods of time so yes a 70,000 btu insert would provide a substantial amount if not all your heating needs.
2) will the insert solve, or at least drastically reduce, the smoke in the house?
Yes, if the flue is correctly sized and the right length
3) If a particular insert calls for a 6 inch exhaust pipe diameter, is it OK to go larger?
Bigger is not always better so if the stove calls for 6 inch which most of them will then you will need to put a chimney liner in.
If it does indeed seem like my expectations are reasonable, I may then get more measurements and other specifics, and ask for help in deciding on a make/model/type.
Thanks!!

A quick sketch of your house layout as well as a description/photo of your fireplace will help you get more precise information from all of the awesome members on this site.
One concerning thing that you mentioned is a factory built fireplace can you expound on whether this is a zero clearance fireplace as that will play a big role in what type of insert you can install.

jotul8e2 · Mar 30, 2011

Unless you have a source for wood, and are willing to take the time and effort to buck, split, and stack the wood, you can expect your firewood expense to be on par with propane. And unless you take the time and make the effort to maintain a fire three to five times a day you will be burning propane anyway.

$360 for a tank of propane? I'm guessing a 250 gallon tank? Kinda small for household heat, but maybe adequate for your climate. Anyway, 200 gallons in a month is a LOT of propane. Up here in Missouri a typical 2,000 sq. ft. ranch will burn 300-500 gallons A YEAR!

You need to focus on what is driving your heating costs. I have a daughter in Dallas - a not dissimilar climate - and her heating costs for her 1,000 sq. ft. ranch are negligible - even this year with the unusually cold weather. The first money you spend should be on insulation and seals. This pays dividends in both the heating and cooling season.

If you are determined to change out to yet another heat source, your area is ideally suited for a high efficiency heat pump -18 seer, or maybe even 20 now. They are amazingly cheap to operate.

Oh, and an insert will not cause more or less smoke in the house than a stove, all other things being equal. Neither of my stoves emit smoke inside, even when loading.

speedy5966 · Mar 30, 2011

Thanks for the quick reply! I don't know if it is a zero clearance, how do I tell? I do know that it has about an inch of open space between the interior and exterior walls of the actual firebox (forgive my lack of proper terminology). Here are 2 pictures of the fireplace. The dimensions of the opening (of the tile surround) are 39 1/2" wide, 25" high, and 18" deep, to the back of the inside box.
Thanks!

speedy5966 · Mar 30, 2011

I have TONS of wood at my disposal, and permission from several landowners to get as much as I want. I don't mind doing the work to maintain firewood stocks, as well as the fire. The wife gets up in the wee hours of the morning, and is well versed and practiced in stoking a fire.Thank you though, for ensuring I consider all aspects. This is what I want, so I don't repeat my earlier mistake. My tank is 200 gallons, and that 360 was for just under 150 gallons. The house is pretty tight, and well insulated. We are adding storm doors this summer, tho, just for the extra heat/cold barrier.

HotCoals · Mar 30, 2011

Go with a stove..you will not regret it if you do your homework first and get it right like you're trying to do.

Mt Ski Bum · Mar 30, 2011

speedy5966 said:
Thanks for the quick reply! I don't know if it is a zero clearance, how do I tell? I do know that it has about an inch of open space between the interior and exterior walls of the actual firebox (forgive my lack of proper terminology). Here are 2 pictures of the fireplace. The dimensions of the opening (of the tile surround) are 39 1/2" wide, 25" high, and 18" deep, to the back of the inside box.
Thanks!

yep... that's a ZC fireplace. "Factory built fireplace", "zero clearance fireplace", & "metal fireplace" pretty much all refer to the same type of fireplace. You'll have to make sure that whatever insert you choose is approved for installation into a ZC fireplace. Another concern I have is how you're going to support the insert with a fireplace opening that high off of the hearth...

Another option, though more expensive & time-consuming, would be to rip out that ZC unit all together & replace it with a high-efficiency ZC fireplace, such as a Fireplace Xtrordinair or Heat N Glo North Star.

Jack22 · Mar 30, 2011

jotul8e2 said:
Unless you have a source for wood, and are willing to take the time and effort to buck, split, and stack the wood, you can expect your firewood expense to be on par with propane. And unless you take the time and make the effort to maintain a fire three to five times a day you will be burning propane anyway.

$360 for a tank of propane? I'm guessing a 250 gallon tank? Kinda small for household heat, but maybe adequate for your climate. Anyway, 200 gallons in a month is a LOT of propane. Up here in Missouri a typical 2,000 sq. ft. ranch will burn 300-500 gallons A YEAR!

You need to focus on what is driving your heating costs. I have a daughter in Dallas - a not dissimilar climate - and her heating costs for her 1,000 sq. ft. ranch are negligible - even this year with the unusually cold weather. The first money you spend should be on insulation and seals. This pays dividends in both the heating and cooling season.

If you are determined to change out to yet another heat source, your area is ideally suited for a high efficiency heat pump -18 seer, or maybe even 20 now. They are amazingly cheap to operate.

Oh, and an insert will not cause more or less smoke in the house than a stove, all other things being equal. Neither of my stoves emit smoke inside, even when loading.

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread but is it really possible for the price of propane to be on par with the price of purchasing wood. In my area the average price of cord wood is $200 per cord. Last time I purchased propane it was $3.25 a gallon. With my furnace being 80% efficient the cost is $44.48 per million Btu's. If I buy wood at $200 per cord assuming 70% efficiency I am looking at $12.99 per million Btu's. These numbers are coming from a heating fuel cost comparison calculator assuming propane at 91,333 Btu's a gallon and a cord of wood at 22,000,000 Btu's. Now I know that there are many other variables involved but I would say in the worst case scenario you would be saving at least 50% buying wood over propane assuming that the prices down there are similar to up here. I am only bringing this up because I plan on buying wood for my first heating season while I get my wood sources together and start seasoning my own wood.

John_M · Mar 30, 2011

speedy, For comparison purposes only, I offer the following: Here in Upstate NY we had another mostly bitterly cold and snowy winter. Before installing my wood stove in 2009, my PROPANE boiler burned approximately 1,100 gallons to heat the house (1,700 sq.ft.) for a year. Propane was used for heat, hot water, clothes dryer, stove, and barbecue.

Last year (2009/2010 heating season) my annual heating requirement burned approx. 400 gallons of propane and approx. 4 full cords of firewood. My 1,000 gallon, underground propane tank was filled last September, 2010, and again about a week ago. The filling a week ago took 382 gallons of propane.

The combination of propane and firewood works very well for me. At today's prices, if I were to continue to burn propane only I would burn about 1.100 gallons at about $2.50 per gallon = $2,750.00.

Burning propane and firewood, my costs are: about 500 gallons of propane @ $2.50 = $1,250.00 and 4 cords of firewood cut, split and delivered @ $150.00 per cord = $600.00 for a total combined annual cost of $1,850.00. The combination of propane and firewood saves me approximately $900.00 per year.

The ambiance and heat provided by the wood stove are difficult to quantify in financial terms. The extra work required by a wood stove is a wonderful way to force me off my lazy duff and stay active during the winter.

Hope this comparison provides some useful info.

speedy5966 · Mar 30, 2011

Thanks for the comparison, John, that does help, and lets me know I'm headed in the right direction. If I DO decide to buy firewood, I can get it here all summer for about 150-175/cord. As for the ZC issue, I was fully intending to take out whatever insert is currently there, and starting from scratch. I HATE the look of the tile surround, and plan on tearing it all out anyway. Whoever did it, did a really crappy job. I want to go with a natural stone look. So if I tear out everything that's there, and just leave the chase, does that solve the ZC issue, as well as the height issue? Bear with me fellas, I'm just learning this fireplace stuff.

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input! Really gets me thinking about other aspects and helps me avoid repeating my previous blunder.

certified106 · Mar 30, 2011

speedy5966 said:
Thanks for the comparison, John, that does help, and lets me know I'm headed in the right direction. If I DO decide to buy firewood, I can get it here all summer for about 150-175/cord. As for the ZC issue, I was fully intending to take out whatever insert is currently there, and starting from scratch. I HATE the look of the tile surround, and plan on tearing it all out anyway. Whoever did it, did a really crappy job. I want to go with a natural stone look. So if I tear out everything that's there, and just leave the chase, does that solve the ZC issue, as well as the height issue? Bear with me fellas, I'm just learning this fireplace stuff.

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input! Really gets me thinking about other aspects and helps me avoid repeating my previous blunder.

If your planning on tearing it all out and building your own hearth then the sky is the limit as to what stove you want to put in there. I would highly recommend going with a freestanding stove. Word to the wise not all stove require the same r value hearth so decide on what stove you want and see what the hearth requirements are. Now let the opinions fly on what stove he should put in there guys.

Mt Ski Bum · Mar 30, 2011

speedy5966 said:
Thanks for the comparison, John, that does help, and lets me know I'm headed in the right direction. If I DO decide to buy firewood, I can get it here all summer for about 150-175/cord. As for the ZC issue, I was fully intending to take out whatever insert is currently there, and starting from scratch. I HATE the look of the tile surround, and plan on tearing it all out anyway. Whoever did it, did a really crappy job. I want to go with a natural stone look. So if I tear out everything that's there, and just leave the chase, does that solve the ZC issue, as well as the height issue? Bear with me fellas, I'm just learning this fireplace stuff.

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input! Really gets me thinking about other aspects and helps me avoid repeating my previous blunder.

If you're tearing it all out, then you are no longer looking for an insert, instead, you are now looking at either a new high-efficiency ZC fireplace or a free-standing stove.
For a ZC fireplace, I'd reccomend either a FPX 36-Elite (or their yet-to be released 36-CVT), or a Heat N' Glo North Star.

If you go with a free-standing stove, the options are truely endless, & really depends on what looks you like best. A few of the stoves I'd reccomend looking at are the Avalon Arbor (Lopi Leyden), Avalon Olympic (Lopi Liberty), Avalon Spokane 1750 (Lopi Republic 1750), Lopi Endeavor, Hearthstone Phoenix, Hearthstone Mansfield, or if you really want to cook your house, the Hearthstone Equinox.

And those stoves are only a handful of the near-infinite possibilities!

Wood Duck · Mar 30, 2011

Back to your original questions, I would say yes, you can certainly get a significant portion of the heating needs for your house from a wood stove or insert. The main challenge will be moving heat around the house to all the rooms. If the stove or insert is in the main living area - the area you want to be the warmest, then you're set. If not, that is a problem. I personally like the bedrooms to be cooler than the living area, and that is usually the case with wood heat.

speedy5966 · Mar 31, 2011

Thanks again to all, this is great info for a newbie! Yes, the fireplace is in the main living area, and I feel the same, I'd rather have the bedrooms a little cooler. I have a line on a unit for sale locally, for $300. It could use a little spit and polish, but it isn't that bad. The only thing they can tell me is that it is an "Earth Stove" brand, and it's the "Majestic Line" It does have a blower, and it looks like it protrudes about 8-10 inches in the front. It is REALLY wide, but the part that goes inside is 29 3/4" wide X 29 1/2" high X 16" deep. Firebox size 18" wide X 21 1/2" deep. Bigger than my current surround, but that's being demo'd anyway. It flares out at the sides, which is where the vent outputs are. Here is a pic. Needs some paint and brass polish, but for $300....... I searched for info on this unit as far as BTU and blower CFM, but didn't find anything. What do you all think?

Mt Ski Bum · Mar 31, 2011

speedy5966 said:
Thanks again to all, this is great info for a newbie! Yes, the fireplace is in the main living area, and I feel the same, I'd rather have the bedrooms a little cooler. I have a line on a unit for sale locally, for $300. It could use a little spit and polish, but it isn't that bad. The only thing they can tell me is that it is an "Earth Stove" brand, and it's the "Majestic Line" It does have a blower, and it looks like it protrudes about 8-10 inches in the front. It is REALLY wide, but the part that goes inside is 29 3/4" wide X 29 1/2" high X 16" deep. Firebox size 18" wide X 21 1/2" deep. Bigger than my current surround, but that's being demo'd anyway. It flares out at the sides, which is where the vent outputs are. Here is a pic. Needs some paint and brass polish, but for $300....... I searched for info on this unit as far as BTU and blower CFM, but didn't find anything. What do you all think?

that is an insert, & if you're tearing out the entire fireplace (like you said earlier), then you should be looking for a new ZC fireplace or free-standing stove, not an insert. Inserts are designed to be installed inside the firebox of an existing fireplace.

speedy5966 · Apr 12, 2011

OK, after much research, and getting a lot of prices, I am considering this one:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200442426_200442426

I downloaded the manual here- http://www.northerntool.com/downloads/manuals/700249.pdf It does state that it can be installed in a zero clearance fireplace, but it also says that it requires 12 inches of clearance from combustibles. So do the walls of the existing ZC provide a heat barrier, so as to negate the need for 12 inches of clearance? If so, and it will be better to leave the existing ZC in place, so be it. I can still tear out the existing tile job, and install the natural stone we want. If not, can I still tear everything out, start from scratch, and build it to fit this insert? We really don't want a freestanding stove, unless it can be placed inside the fireplace so that it looks like an insert. The picture of the Heat n' Glo Northstar that Mt Ski Bum posted, is exactly the look we want, in terms of the stone work, and how the insert sits in the fireplace: http://www.heatnglo.com/en/Products/North-Star-Wood-Fireplace.aspx

If I do get this one, I am going to have it professionally installed. I'm really handy, and I've done a lot of building and renovating, but I really think I want to have this one done by a pro.
Thoughts?
Thanks!!

moosetrek · Apr 13, 2011

I guess my first question is do you have room, and are you willing to use it, in front of the fireplace for a stove? If the answer is yes, then rip out everything (sounds like you want to anyway), either ignore the exterior chimney or tap into it up higher, and put in a stove. I agree with the other posters on the choices, ZC fireplace or stove. You already want to get rid of the tile and stuff that's there, why spend 80% of the cost for to put in anything you want, just to put in a fireplace that you'll not be as happy with? If it was my house, I'd plan on a stove, even if it's a smaller one, look at something like soapstone or a jacketed stove (PE, quadrafire, etc.) for even heat. Heck even if you run a new chimney it'll be about $1K and you can put it where the current fireplace is, or anywhere else in the house you like. Having a solid wood supply, and being willing to work to cut and split, is over 50% of the committment, and matters more than the stove or fireplace question. You could probably heat the whole house easily with a good stove, and a couple fans. Also, it's something you can easily do yourself it you know your way around a hammer and can read directions (and clearances). You've probably got more experience that me, and I built a hearth & installed a new chimney in a couple weekends.

I'd avoid looking too hard at older used stoves and inserts, you're spending $ and time well in excess of stove cost for wood heat (saw, chimney, remodel, etc.), the stove is overall a small part of the cost - do yourself right and get what you like and can reasonably afford, it's not an area to skimp.

On another note, that sounds like a LOT of propane to use - sounds like you've got a really olde (!) furnace, a leak somewhere in propane or insulation, or you just like it hot - in which case you'd better go with a stove or some kind of wood heat.

speedy5966 · Apr 13, 2011

That's one of the problems; I really don't have any room. the L/R isn't that big, and I'm already going to have to rearrange the furniture to get the couch away from the fireplace as it is. I'd love a stove, as it seems they really provide what I am looking for, but I just don't have the space. Could I set one into the space where the existing fireplace is?

Mt Ski Bum · Apr 13, 2011

speedy5966 said:
That's one of the problems; I really don't have any room. the L/R isn't that big, and I'm already going to have to rearrange the furniture to get the couch away from the fireplace as it is. I'd love a stove, as it seems they really provide what I am looking for, but I just don't have the space. Could I set one into the space where the existing fireplace is?

Have you considered replacing that fireplace with a new ZC fireplace, such as the North Star?
Since you already want to re-do the stone work surrounding the fireplace, it'd be alot more practical to do that instead of putting an insert into the existing fireplace.

begreen · Apr 13, 2011

speedy5966 said:
Thanks for the quick reply! I don't know if it is a zero clearance, how do I tell? I do know that it has about an inch of open space between the interior and exterior walls of the actual firebox (forgive my lack of proper terminology). Here are 2 pictures of the fireplace. The dimensions of the opening (of the tile surround) are 39 1/2" wide, 25" high, and 18" deep, to the back of the inside box.
Thanks!

Looks like you can put a decent sized insert in there that will make a nice dent in the heating bill and will keep the family warm. All you need to do is shell out the cash and get the wood ready. Hope you are working on the second part already.

If money is tight, I'd opt for the insert. It will install quickly and only need a stainless liner to connect to. There are a lot of nice units out there. Depending on what dealers are nearby, consider the Avalon Rainier, Regency I2400, or Pacific Energy Pacific insert.

speedy5966 · Aug 22, 2011

Hi all! I know it's been a while, but I thought I'd update y'all anyway. I found a new, never been installed Heat n' Glo Northstar on craigslist for, get this, $2500!! I talked him down to $2200, and found a licensed installer who will do the technical part of the install for $500, and leave it for me to enclose. This includes tear out of the old unit, and installing the new unit and liner, and making all of the connections. All I have to do is install an outlet for the fan to plug into, and build the raised hearth, mantle, and the rest of the stonework.

Thanks VERY much to EVERYONE here who helped me get to this decision. I know this unit will provide plenty of heat to keep us toasty!

MasterMech · Aug 22, 2011

Just remember.... If there's no pics, it never happened! :cheese:

speedy5966 · Aug 22, 2011

Yup, soon as its done, the pics will follow.

speedy5966 · Jan 13, 2012

OK, finally finished it on Christmas Eve, the very day that 9 of my wife's family arrived, so I hope you'll pardon the delay. Been a little busy. With the exception of the actual fireplace installation, I did everything myself. Plywood, then felt paper, then metal lath, then scratchcoat, then mortar the stones to the wall, then grout it. Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with how it turned out. I have a few pictures of it during the build, but not really a full blown how to. I'll get those pictures up when I get some more time. This isn't the greatest quality picture, so I'll also get some better ones to post.
I absolutely LOVE this unit, so a HUGE thanks to everyone for all of the advice. It puts out a ton of heat, and looks nice, too. I like the fact that you can burn 24 inch logs, though it makes it hard to get the full length of log going. I am going to cut future firewood at about 18-20 inches, to make them easier to load and arrange. I am getting a lot of buildup on the glass, but a bit of research told me that the wood is probably a little too wet. I haven't gotten around to buying a moisture meter yet, so I don't know for sure.
Again, thanks for everyone's advice, and please, PLEASE, let me know your honest opinion of how it looks. I think it's pretty good, considering this was my first attempt at any sort of masonry work. I had never even mixed mortar before this job.

Thanks again!!

begreen · Jan 13, 2012

Wow, that is a stunning finish! It looks fantastic. That has to be a source of a lot of pride and joy. Aren't you glad you didn't stick that old Majestic in there now?

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