Permits and Insurance

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The thing that makes the $300 harder to swallow is that the building inspector I talked to had no idea what I needed to do to make it a safe install. He handed me a flyer that said, "make sure the stove is EPA certified, and don't burn garbage, etc." There was NO guidance as to clearances. I've learned that from my own research on stove manufacturer websites, and here on this site. I plan to go down to the local fire station and talk with them, too. I'll bet they will give me good info.

The government will charge me $300, and then expect me to educate them.
 
A true story: During my install (done by me - not a certified installer), I wanted to go "off the reservation" a little by putting the air-supply fan in the basement instead of having it in an outside wall drawing outside combustion air. The install manual assumed that everyone would install for outside air supply, but a number of people (here and elsewhere) advised me that it works better using inside air. The manual didn't prohibit that sort of install, but it didn't give specifications for doing it either. My local building inspector/ code guy told me in the beginning that as long as I did everything according to the manual I'd be fine. Well, the manual wasn't going to help with this one. I called and asked said inspector guy about it, and he said I could only do it if I got the company (Travis) to send him a written letter stating that this was OK. He also added, "But you won't be able to get them to do that." Well, I asked my dealer, and he got in touch with Travis Industries, and they faxed the requested letter. Inspector guy must have been surprised.

Fast forward - inspection day arrives. Inspector guy shows up without a tape measure, looks around at things for about 10 or 15 minutes, and signs off on it. I'm convinced that the whole incident with the letter showed him that I wasn't trying to fudge anything, and he trusted my skills and knowledge after that.

-Speak
 
We are definitly getting the required permits....you need a permit in jersey to regrade your backyard!!!

I re-did my bathroom and moved 3 walls last year and didn't get any. But this is different... If God for bid something were to happen and I didn't get permits, I could definitly see my insurance company not paying up...I dont even care if the insurance co. tells me I dont need it inspected. Around here, this is not a real commomn item, and I bet if I called State Farm 3 different times, I'd get 3 different answers...

The township said $75.00 for the permit and $75.00 for the inspection....
 
JoeRJGR said:
We are definitly getting the required permits....you need a permit in jersey to regrade your backyard!!!

I re-did my bathroom and moved 3 walls last year and didn't get any. But this is different... If God for bid something were to happen and I didn't get permits, I could definitly see my insurance company not paying up...I dont even care if the insurance co. tells me I dont need it inspected. Around here, this is not a real commomn item, and I bet if I called State Farm 3 different times, I'd get 3 different answers...

The township said $75.00 for the permit and $75.00 for the inspection....

Wise move, Joe! :thumbsup:

"When the student is ready, a teacher appears." -- Zen teaching

"Well a question ain't really a question, when you know the answer too." -- John Prine

Good luck!
 
JoeRJGR said:
Called insurance company...

They said since you are already covered for the fireplace, nothing else has to be done..

well done, now you are covered and have piece of mind and saved the permit costs.

Today is going to be a good day.

pen
 
shawneyboy said:
Erie Insurance here, notification took a few minutes. Wanted to know manufacturer and model. Also wanted to know if professionally installed and by who. I had it professionally installed by a well known company. They just said ok, it is noted on your policy. Done.

I have Erie also. Asked them about the install and they wanted to know manufacturer and model and if it was professionally installed. I said how about if I send you the approval from the permit, and they where good with that. Did my own install, to code, and passed the inspection. No increase of the insurance.
 
Sorry to revive such an old thread. But, I finally got my stove and chimney installed.

I pulled a permit back in April, which cost a paltry $140, since I was doing the install myself. (Not the $300 I had been told, originally.) Then, I hurt my back, and pecked away at the stove install as my body would permit. So, now it's done. However, I received a letter from the county saying they would prefer to avoid an on-site inspection, and would I kindly describe the installation, and include pictures. REALLY??

This seems really reckless on their part. They aren't interested in checking the safety of the installation. They are willing to trust what I put in writing, as long as they can increase my property taxes accordingly. I'm appalled. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure I did a good job on the install. The only potential problem will be the height of my chimney. I might have to add a couple of feet if the draft turns out to be really weak. I'm going to test it the way it is, and then decide on spending the extra $$. (Chiropractors are expensive!)

So, the question is, should I wait until I hear back from the building inspectors office before my first fire? Or, would you go ahead, with caution?
 
Wait till it's approved so if by chance you get smoke damage or something your insurance can not say your in non conformance of your permit
 
Of course, that makes sense.

I sure hope they are quick to review my paperwork. I don't have any pellets this year. My chiropractor said no lifting those 40 pound bags. So, the little squirrel is it.
 
OrpingtonManor said:
Sorry to revive such an old thread. But, I finally got my stove and chimney installed.

I pulled a permit back in April, which cost a paltry $140, since I was doing the install myself. (Not the $300 I had been told, originally.) Then, I hurt my back, and pecked away at the stove install as my body would permit. So, now it's done. However, I received a letter from the county saying they would prefer to avoid an on-site inspection, and would I kindly describe the installation, and include pictures. REALLY??

This seems really reckless on their part. They aren't interested in checking the safety of the installation. They are willing to trust what I put in writing, as long as they can increase my property taxes accordingly. I'm appalled. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure I did a good job on the install. The only potential problem will be the height of my chimney. I might have to add a couple of feet if the draft turns out to be really weak. I'm going to test it the way it is, and then decide on spending the extra $$. (Chiropractors are expensive!)

So, the question is, should I wait until I hear back from the building inspectors office before my first fire? Or, would you go ahead, with caution?

Crazy . . . I wonder if anyone has ever tried submitting a picture taken from a manufacturer's catalog or brochure and claim it as their own install? ;)

I too would wait until you get everything settled before lighting up . . .
 
OrpingtonManor said:
Sorry to revive such an old thread. But, I finally got my stove and chimney installed.

I pulled a permit back in April, which cost a paltry $140, since I was doing the install myself. (Not the $300 I had been told, originally.) Then, I hurt my back, and pecked away at the stove install as my body would permit. So, now it's done. However, I received a letter from the county saying they would prefer to avoid an on-site inspection, and would I kindly describe the installation, and include pictures. REALLY??

This seems really reckless on their part. They aren't interested in checking the safety of the installation. They are willing to trust what I put in writing, as long as they can increase my property taxes accordingly. I'm appalled. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure I did a good job on the install. The only potential problem will be the height of my chimney. I might have to add a couple of feet if the draft turns out to be really weak. I'm going to test it the way it is, and then decide on spending the extra $$. (Chiropractors are expensive!)

So, the question is, should I wait until I hear back from the building inspectors office before my first fire? Or, would you go ahead, with caution?

You think that's wreckless? My town doesn't requite a permit for wood stove or chimney installation (I asked) and my insurance co isn't coming out to inspect it themselves, I just have a paper to fill out and send in some pictures. The town did "recommend" that I get it inspected by the fire department, but it's just that, a recommendation. I did have my chimney installed professionally and oddly enough the guy that did it works on the fire department here. When I finish the installation today I will be giving a call to our fire chief and he is going to come out personally to check the whole install is ok (I already talked to him a week ago and he said he would). Maybe small towns are different.
 
JoeRJGR said:
Debating whether I should pull permits for my install.

I know it will be a joke, but here is my question...lets assume I dont get a permit and god forbid I have some type of fire issue. Can my insurance agency deny coverage if I dont get a permit?

As always..Thanks

There are many things I wouldn't (or haven't) pulled a permit for (I'll take my chances and pay the fine if I ever get caught) ... but installing a combustion appliance in my living space is one I always will. Call it, enlightened self-interest. Insurance voidance aside, I want to make sure that the installer is doing things right so my family doesn't perish or forced to bail in our underwear during a January blizzard. Then I think of my cats who would also surely perish... no, not worth saving the few bucks on something with that high a risk.
 
The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve
 
glenlloyd said:
The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve

I agree with a lot of what you say . . . I was floored when I learned that folks wanting to have a yard sale where I work have to go in and pay for a permit to be legal. Unbelievable. Granted, it's only something like $5 for three days . . . but still . . .
 
put in my whole system myself. originally consisted of a non-epa stove, and metal pipe (single wall and metalbestos). then switched to a epa rated stove this past spring.
but, on the date of the install, i notified the ins. co. of my new addition...
first they wanted to know who installed it-me.
then they wanted to know if it was inspected-no.
then they wanted to have it inspected by someone in the "business". i asked what business? they said heating. i told them they are talking to someone in the business. 14 yrs experience and associates degree in hvacr.
then they wanted a picture (already had one).
then, over the next three months, i spent an amount of time and effort educating them on the permissibility of class a metalbestos pipe for a chimney. seems that they never heard of it. told them to take a look at the rooftops of the houses on their way into work the next few days and count how many "shinny metal pipes" have smoke coming out of them. finally ended up getting an "approval" letter from a rep. of selkirk co. in calif. (i had given them the website showing the ratings of the metalbestos pipe, but i guess they couldn't understand it or just wouldn't look at it)
end result, insurance increase of $40 annually.

my advice, if you are able, do it right and do it yourself...save some bucks
 
firefighterjake said:
glenlloyd said:
The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve

I agree with a lot of what you say . . . I was floored when I learned that folks wanting to have a yard sale where I work have to go in and pay for a permit to be legal. Unbelievable. Granted, it's only something like $5 for three days . . . but still . . .

ha...here you can have two non-permitted yard sales, if you have more a permit is required. (sorry about threadjacking)

Also, the cost for permits of any type has gone up here, our city is under pressure (as are many) to increase income or cut budgets. Fools didn't save during the 'seven fat years' and now that we're entering the 'seven lean years' they have nothing in the coffers to get by, so the rumor now is tax increases are on the way. The IA DOT raised the cost of tickets last year, the list was so long it filled three pages!
 
glenlloyd said:
The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve
Wow, I sure hope no one thinks that about me and my department. Our only interest is in safe buildings. Our permit fees don't even come close to funding permits and inspection. We just don't want unknowing people to end up with something like this. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73187/
 
OrpingtonManor said:
The thing that makes the $300 harder to swallow is that the building inspector I talked to had no idea what I needed to do to make it a safe install. He handed me a flyer that said, "make sure the stove is EPA certified, and don't burn garbage, etc." There was NO guidance as to clearances. I've learned that from my own research on stove manufacturer websites, and here on this site. I plan to go down to the local fire station and talk with them, too. I'll bet they will give me good info.

The government will charge me $300, and then expect me to educate them.

amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....
 
Scotty Overkill said:
OrpingtonManor said:
The thing that makes the $300 harder to swallow is that the building inspector I talked to had no idea what I needed to do to make it a safe install. He handed me a flyer that said, "make sure the stove is EPA certified, and don't burn garbage, etc." There was NO guidance as to clearances. I've learned that from my own research on stove manufacturer websites, and here on this site. I plan to go down to the local fire station and talk with them, too. I'll bet they will give me good info.

The government will charge me $300, and then expect me to educate them.

amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

Wow! Pretty critical generalization.
 
tfdchief said:
Scotty Overkill said:
OrpingtonManor said:
The thing that makes the $300 harder to swallow is that the building inspector I talked to had no idea what I needed to do to make it a safe install. He handed me a flyer that said, "make sure the stove is EPA certified, and don't burn garbage, etc." There was NO guidance as to clearances. I've learned that from my own research on stove manufacturer websites, and here on this site. I plan to go down to the local fire station and talk with them, too. I'll bet they will give me good info.

The government will charge me $300, and then expect me to educate them.

amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

Wow! Pretty critical generalization.

I can tell you that when I hear inspector, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth....I have no idea where the one in our area got his training, but he knows damn near nothing about everything.....not saying it is that way everywhere, but around here they have made it ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE for you to do anything on your property.....and if I remember correctly this is The USA....land of the free?......no, you gotta pay for everything, even if it is paying for nothing which is pretty much what you get with inspectors around here.....
 
Scotty Overkill said:
tfdchief said:
Scotty Overkill said:
OrpingtonManor said:
The thing that makes the $300 harder to swallow is that the building inspector I talked to had no idea what I needed to do to make it a safe install. He handed me a flyer that said, "make sure the stove is EPA certified, and don't burn garbage, etc." There was NO guidance as to clearances. I've learned that from my own research on stove manufacturer websites, and here on this site. I plan to go down to the local fire station and talk with them, too. I'll bet they will give me good info.

The government will charge me $300, and then expect me to educate them.

amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

Wow! Pretty critical generalization.

I can tell you that when I hear inspector, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth....I have no idea where the one in our area got his training, but he knows damn near nothing about everything.....not saying it is that way everywhere, but around here they have made it ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE for you to do anything on your property.....and if I remember correctly this is The USA....land of the free?......no, you gotta pay for everything, even if it is paying for nothing which is pretty much what you get with inspectors around here.....
Yes it is! You are still free to say just about anything you want in this wonderful country. Sorry you have had a bad experience. We are not all bad though. Some of us really care about the welfare of our citizens. In fact, some of us have put our lives on the line for them, even though they screwed up. Just sayin.
 
tfdchief said:
Scotty Overkill said:
amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

Wow! Pretty critical generalization.

He did say "around here". It could be in his town its true. My stove inspections didn't involve many questions, any tape measures, etc. They were extremely cursory inspections. I was within 1/32" of required clearance on my insert and that was eyeballed. I just got a roofing permit this week because I'm on a main road about a mile from town hall and its going to take several days to replace the roof. I certainly didn't get it for safety/quality/code enforcement. There isn't any inspection for roofs, just permit costs and automatic tax reassessment. In my town electrical and gas permits seem pretty pricy for minor repairs AND they won't issue them to homeowners. If its electrician rates + $60 permit to add a light switch or plumber rates + $75 permit to replace a leaking hot water heater with one of the same size reusing all the same pipes, its appears to me that the town would rather not be aware of work where safety may actually be involved but there are no tax increases for it.
 
KarlP said:
tfdchief said:
Scotty Overkill said:
amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

Wow! Pretty critical generalization.

He did say "around here". It could be in his town its true. My stove inspections didn't involve many questions, any tape measures, etc. They were extremely cursory inspections. I was within 1/32" of required clearance on my insert and that was eyeballed. I just got a roofing permit this week because I'm on a main road about a mile from town hall and its going to take several days to replace the roof. I certainly didn't get it for safety/quality/code enforcement. There isn't any inspection for roofs, just permit costs and automatic tax reassessment. In my town electrical and gas permits seem pretty pricy for minor repairs AND they won't issue them to homeowners. If its electrician rates + $60 permit to add a light switch or plumber rates + $75 permit to replace a leaking hot water heater with one of the same size reusing all the same pipes, its appears to me that the town would rather not be aware of work where safety may actually be involved but there are no tax increases for it.

Gotta agree . . . I've been around for a bit in a few places and have seen inspectors who had no clue and simply liked throwing around their authority . . . and I've seen inspectors who are wicked smart and truly want to make sure the family or business is safe and try to work with folks to correct any problems . . . I've seen inspectors -- or actually heard about inspectors from contractors -- who expect a little extra cash or gift to make the approval process go smoothly . . . and I know of many an inspector in small towns who do what they do for nothing or very little pay simply because they care about their neighbors. I have seen inspectors who didn't want or care to do the job, but were told to do it by their boss or because they were on light-duty . . . and I've seen folks who have spent a lot of time and training to learn their craft.

It really can be relative to where you are.
 
tfdchief said:
glenlloyd said:
The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve
Wow, I sure hope no one thinks that about me and my department. Our only interest is in safe buildings. Our permit fees don't even come close to funding permits and inspection. We just don't want unknowing people to end up with something like this. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73187/

None of what I said was directed at you personally, and I think you recognize that. Also I'm glad you try to make things safe for those who visit your facility. Where I live it's an entirely different matter, there's a lot of cronyism and rudeness, inconsistent inspectors, post-construction permitting and policy enforcement over code enforcement.

The less I have to see of the permit department the better off I am IMO.

steve
 
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