Permits and Insurance

glenlloyd said:

tfdchief said:

glenlloyd said:

The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve

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Wow, I sure hope no one thinks that about me and my department. Our only interest is in safe buildings. Our permit fees don't even come close to funding permits and inspection. We just don't want unknowing people to end up with something like this. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73187/

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None of what I said was directed at you personally, and I think you recognize that. Also I'm glad you try to make things safe for those who visit your facility. Where I live it's an entirely different matter, there's a lot of cronyism and rudeness, inconsistent inspectors, post-construction permitting and policy enforcement over code enforcement.

The less I have to see of the permit department the better off I am IMO.

steve

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I did recognize that. But thank you. As I am also sure that you know, I was not trying to bust your chops either. Just wanted to make sure it was also said that we inspectors are not all like that. Thanks, Steve

glenlloyd said:

tfdchief said:

glenlloyd said:

The big question I think is whether inserts / chimney liners are considered repairs or new installs. A relined masonry chimney would not be a new install since the chimney exists, it's just being upgraded. I would think that a person would want it inspected here that is by a different authority (FD vs. city bldg dept). I'm not sure city bldg / permits has anything to do with wood stoves / inserts although they might from a placement perspective and clearances.

My opinion is that permit depts are typically rude and just another avenue for cities to generate income, in some cases a lot.

steve

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Wow, I sure hope no one thinks that about me and my department. Our only interest is in safe buildings. Our permit fees don't even come close to funding permits and inspection. We just don't want unknowing people to end up with something like this. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/73187/

Click to expand...

None of what I said was directed at you personally, and I think you recognize that. Also I'm glad you try to make things safe for those who visit your facility. Where I live it's an entirely different matter, there's a lot of cronyism and rudeness, inconsistent inspectors, post-construction permitting and policy enforcement over code enforcement.

The less I have to see of the permit department the better off I am IMO.

steve

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I'm all about being safe (hence my name Overkill), but it is more about your freedom to do something to better your personal property and they want to make it near impossible....where we live they won't let you do near anything......unless you are a licensed contractor, and then you have all the fees, inspections, permits, etc.....and when the work is done (even though it passes inspection) it isn't up to my personal standards.....it all works out to socialism....lets not get me started on this subject. I meant no ill feelings to any of you who may be an inspector, fire personnel, police officer, etc.....I'm just saying where is my personal freedom to do things, and yes they are done RIGHT......I graduated preschool YEARS ago......just sayin.....government regulations (some for the better, some for the worse) have completely gotten out of hand.....hell you can't even get a home improvement loan and use the money yourself around here anymore....they make it so a LICENSED CONTRACTOR is the one who takes the money out of a loan that YOU PAY FOR.....

firefighterjake said:

KarlP said:

tfdchief said:

Scotty Overkill said:

amen amen amen......these building inspectors around here are goons who have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of who what where why.....pulling a permit will do nothing for you, you need your insurance co. to come, verify the clearances, take a picture or two, note it in your policy, call you and tell you it's done......if something happens, it is IN YOUR POLICY THAT THEY CAME AND LOOKED AT THE WORK, MEASURED THE CLEARANCES, TOOK A PICTURE OR TWO, AND PUT IT IN YOUR POLICY......paying for local building inspectors does one thing for you.....raises your taxes to pay another person who doesn't know what they are looking at to tell you it is done right.........IMHO.....

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Wow! Pretty critical generalization.

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He did say "around here". It could be in his town its true. My stove inspections didn't involve many questions, any tape measures, etc. They were extremely cursory inspections. I was within 1/32" of required clearance on my insert and that was eyeballed. I just got a roofing permit this week because I'm on a main road about a mile from town hall and its going to take several days to replace the roof. I certainly didn't get it for safety/quality/code enforcement. There isn't any inspection for roofs, just permit costs and automatic tax reassessment. In my town electrical and gas permits seem pretty pricy for minor repairs AND they won't issue them to homeowners. If its electrician rates + $60 permit to add a light switch or plumber rates + $75 permit to replace a leaking hot water heater with one of the same size reusing all the same pipes, its appears to me that the town would rather not be aware of work where safety may actually be involved but there are no tax increases for it.

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Gotta agree . . . I've been around for a bit in a few places and have seen inspectors who had no clue and simply liked throwing around their authority . . . and I've seen inspectors who are wicked smart and truly want to make sure the family or business is safe and try to work with folks to correct any problems . . . I've seen inspectors -- or actually heard about inspectors from contractors -- who expect a little extra cash or gift to make the approval process go smoothly . . . and I know of many an inspector in small towns who do what they do for nothing or very little pay simply because they care about their neighbors. I have seen inspectors who didn't want or care to do the job, but were told to do it by their boss or because they were on light-duty . . . and I've seen folks who have spent a lot of time and training to learn their craft.

It really can be relative to where you are.

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well stated, FirefighterJake.......I will second this wholeheartedly, and if I offended anyone out there who is a GOOD inspector (the bad ones know who they are), I apologize......I do appreciate people who genuinly care about what they are doing and why they are doing it....but I can say me and quite a few others close to me have had very bad experiences, where we've been dictated and criticized for things that were RIGHT.....

My biggest issue with permits is that they always approach the customer with what they cannot do versus what they can do, it's always, you can't do that or you can't do this, when they ought take the approach that they understand what the resident wants to do so lets look at the safe / cost effective options for accomplishing the task at hand.

The other side of this is that we cannot save all the idiots from themselves, nor should we, because the fact of the matter is that you cannot save everyone from themselves, but we should not turn a blind eye to the obvious errors either. It's a fine line where intervening in what people want to do for safety becomes nothing more than a boot on someone's neck...

My applause to the inspectors / permit people who are good and kind, but please send some of those my direction....because at this point we have too few here.

steve

glenlloyd said:

My biggest issue with permits is that they always approach the customer with what they cannot do versus what they can do, it's always, you can't do that or you can't do this, when they ought take the approach that they understand what the resident wants to do so lets look at the safe / cost effective options for accomplishing the task at hand.

The other side of this is that we cannot save all the idiots from themselves, nor should we, because the fact of the matter is that you cannot save everyone from themselves, but we should not turn a blind eye to the obvious errors either. It's a fine line where intervening in what people want to do for safety becomes nothing more than a boot on someone's neck...

My applause to the inspectors / permit people who are good and kind, but please send some of those my direction....because at this point we have too few here.

steve

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an absolute +1 here....I agree Steve...sounds like we're in the same boat....lol...

In my town, they do not require a permit for a woodstove, or insert. When we had our insert installed, I did have the inspector here to make sure it was done by code....just in case something happened, I could show the insurance company it was up to snuff. The problem I had was not enough Hearth....needed something like 29 inches in front of the insert (just a few inches short), so got what I thought was a fireproof Hearth Rug.....inspector flipped it over, looked at the tag and said "it doesn't meet F17665 standrds" (not sure of the exact #).....went crazy looking for something with those numbers.....couldn't find a darn thing.....called the state, and they said "all you need is something non combustable"....so, went to Loews, got a sheet of cement board, layed it in front of the Hearth....it passed....returned it back to Loews....so much for codes

I was not even asked to turn my paperwork into the building inspector. It went directly to the assessor. I included all the docs and pics that I thought explained the installation. My next call is to my insurance agent to make sure that they are happy with the installation and permit process.

Around here, it is fairly well known that you should avoid getting a permit unless you have a really good reason for it. My neighbor is the retired DA, and even he says have as little contact with the building inspectors as you can. I guess we live in an area where they aren't doing the job to make things safer for humanity.

My dad, who lives in the same county, had to replace his heating unit recently. When the inspector arrived and found out the unit was on the roof, he said, flat out, I don't climb ladders. Then, he asked if my dad had installed smoke detectors. My dad said, yes, and would you like to see them. The inspector said no, and signed off on everything, even though he was on site and could have at least looked.

Our county has laid off most of the inspectors. I don't think we're any less safe here as a result. I hope it's better other places.

So, here I am waiting until I get approval. But, I wonder if it will sit on someone's desk all winter. The beauty of an on-site inspection is the quick sign-off. I know, I know. It's only been a few days. But, I keep looking at that stove, and wishing I was lighting it up.

You know, now that I think about it I think Des Moines has an ordinance against firewood on the front porch....couldn't say for sure but I'll have to check tomorrow. That could throw a big wrench in my storage plans for the winter, since I have a covered open porch that I have already partially stockpiled with cut wood.

steve

Would your neighbors turn you in?

People store wood on the front porch here. I wonder if we have an ordinance...

I just called my insurance company (Safeco) regarding my new install of an Osburn 2200 insert. She told me, "No, we don't need anything...you're fine."

Looks like it's time to do my break-in fires!

OrpingtonManor said:

Would your neighbors turn you in?

People store wood on the front porch here. I wonder if we have an ordinance...

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No, my neighbors wouldn't turn me in but I'm on a corner on a busy street and the house sits close to the street. There might be a situation where an inspector would see it driving by. I need to get a brown tarp over it anyway, and that'll obscure the view a little too.

Fortunately, the City is in a budget mess anyway, like so many, so inspectors are getting thinned out and with fewer of them out there the probability of having a problem with this gets lower.

steve

Building permitting in our town is a Kafkaesque nightmare. Requirements are whimsical and not based on any code. If you call them, they will tell you that a building permit is needed to stain your deck, or to paint your house.

LIJack said:

Building permitting in our town is a Kafkaesque nightmare. Requirements are whimsical and not based on any code. If you call them, they will tell you that a building permit is needed to stain your deck, or to paint your house.

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I just submitted for a ZC fireplace install. Was told to fill out the woodstove permit form. $25. Thought it strange since it's a fireplace and not a stove, with a bunch more work involved. We'll see if the inspector is good with that in a couple weeks when the permit will be ready to pick up (normally, they will charge more if the value of construction is > $3k).

I decided to stop hijacking this thread and start my own.