1st night with 1150 gals. of heated storage

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by huffdawg, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. woodsmaster

    woodsmaster
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,776
    Likes Received:
    136
    Loc:
    N.W. Ohio
    The sensor was probably cooler from having the metal off when you adjusted it. I thought I had mine right put the cover on and it was off again. Had to mess with it a few times before I got it to match.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    The boiler gauge and the controller temp readout are within a couple degrees now I managed to get storage up to 179 °F . The boiler still goes into idle mode at 195 °F and then comes back on at around 190 °F and thats with the bypass closed. I think the taco 007 pump isn't moving enough volume through the boiler.

    Last night the storage was at 179 at 9:30 and dropped to 152 by 630 am

    Huff
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  3. jebatty

    jebatty
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    623
    Loc:
    Northern MN
    While this may be technically correct, and assuming an Eko 40 is similar in output to a Tarm Solo 40 Plus, at anything at delta-T=20 the 007 should do fine, and probably even at a lesser delta-T, but that is dependent on pump head in your system between the boiler and the storage. So while the 007 may be at "fault," what also may be at fault is pipe of insufficient diameter or too long in length, with fittings, etc., to bring pump head to a point where flow is low with a 007. It's a system, not necessarily a component, that makes everything work well.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  4. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    Hi Jim , the piping is 1-1/4" and my buffer tank is only 3' away. Then my storage tanks have their own 3 speed circ. I can see that the buffer tank is 182 when the boiler is idling @ 193 or so .
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  5. taxidermist

    taxidermist
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,034
    Likes Received:
    15
    Loc:
    Fowlerville MI
    Might be the size of your pump. I tried to slow down my 013 and it did not take long before my boiler was idling.



    Rob
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  6. jebatty

    jebatty
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    623
    Loc:
    Northern MN
    huff - the issue which you probably know is that the delta-T between the return from buffer/storage/system to the boiler and the boiler output is less than 20F. Assuming boiler output at 110,000 btu and delta-T= 12, you need to move 18 gpm, beyond the capacity of the 007, but at delta-T = 20F, you only need to move 11 gpm. We all have this issue at low delta-T's.

    As other posts have mentioned, a "solution" is to load your boiler so that the wood load is burning out as delta-T becomes less, then boiler output is less, and you don't need to move as much water. This technique allows me to load the entire storage 190-193F, top to bottom, with no idling at all. But I also use weighed wood burns, which makes this pretty easy to do in my situation.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  7. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    I will try that when the boiler temps start to drop add a couple of pieces of wood to keep the boiler just under the idle temp.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  8. jebatty

    jebatty
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    623
    Loc:
    Northern MN
    I think it works best the other way. By trial and error, give the boiler up to a full load (or 2nd or 3rd full load) based on how many btu's you think you need to add to storage to bring it up to a target temperature (+ meet simultaneous demand, if any). With 1150 gal of storage, you need 1150 x 8.33 btu's to raise storage 1F. So to raise storage 10F, you need 95795 btu's.

    Assume your wood is close to 20% MC, assume wood at 6050 btu/lb available energy. 95795 / 6050 = 16 lbs of wood, if you have 100% efficiency. I assume 80-85%, so you need 16 / 0.8 = 20 lbs of wood, if no other demand. You can work this out for any other target temperature, but the point is that you then load that amount of wood, starts out at high burn, burns down, output falls, and the boiler coasts the btu's into storage with (if everything is estimated correctly) no idling and arriving at target temperature.

    Another way to look at this is 1150 x 8.33 btu's to raise 1F = 9580 btu's, then divide by 6050 = 1.6 lbs of wood, and efficiency correction of 1.6 / 0.8 = 2 lbs of wood per 1F temp rise in 1150 gal of storage.

    I use this technique all the time. It works.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  9. goosegunner

    goosegunner
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    99
    Loc:
    WI
    Huff,

    I can't remember if I sent you my spreadsheet that does the math for you?

    Averages tank sensors and calculates pounds of wood. Also calculates lbs for the heat load during the burn, lbs to bring boiler from start temp to pump start. Gives total for all.

    gg
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  10. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    Thanx Jim and gg . I'll have to get myself some sort of scale . Goose could you email me your spreadsheet please and thank you. Got the tanks to 180 this afternoon the buffer was 185 and the boiler at 190 then I added some more wood but it was too much and I went into idle mode . What temps does your boilers go into idle at.

    Huff
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  11. goosegunner

    goosegunner
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    99
    Loc:
    WI
    I will send it to you.

    My Econoburn goes to low fan at 5 degrees below setpoint. I run the setpoint at 190. 1 have used 195 a few times but 190 seems to work fine.


    gg
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  12. goosegunner

    goosegunner
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    99
    Loc:
    WI
    Huff,

    PM me your email address and I will send you the file. It averages Top and Bottom of storage. How many sensors do you have?

    gg
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  13. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    I dont have any sensors yet. I have three sensor wells on each tank. I was hoping to purchase a nofossil system. I will pm you

    Huff
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  14. JP11

    JP11
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,447
    Likes Received:
    519
    Loc:
    Central Maine
    Oh man.. This stuff all makes so much more sense after you have the boiler and have been running it a bit. :)

    I think my design plan had me at like 22 GPM with 1.5 inch piping. I've got a 60kw boiler though.

    So with bigger pipe, and bigger GPM.. I don't go into idle then. I've been able to get my storage to 194.5 before it goes into idle. I do notice that my controller shows my temp of boiler about 3 to 5 degrees hotter than what the output of boiler really is. I think that's a tweak I can make to get a bit more out before I hit idle.

    My only real wish is to have a chart of what my controller really does. You know.. if I had a chart that said.. Ok, storage gets to X.. Boiler at Y. It's Idle.. it will turn fan on every Z minutes to keep flames alive... then at B temp it will come back on.

    I know I don't NEED to know what it does.. but other than staring at it to see.. I don't know what's coming "next"

    The wife is on her first week alone with it. She's doing OK so far. It's different learning how to use it when I'm standing there vs. a couple thousand miles away.

    JP
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  15. huffdawg

    huffdawg
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    70
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    Hi JP. my wife runs our boiler 2 weeks on 2 weeks off she seems to manage well. She uses different load timing than what I do. And she gets results so I don't tell her how to do it anymore. I have had mine up and running since mid. Dec. still learning. I have managed to get my storage up to 186f. but can't seem to get it any higher. I guess I will be buying a larger pump in the summer, I would love to get the storage to 195f.
    Glad to hear your getting all the kinks worked out.

    Huff
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  16. JP11

    JP11
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,447
    Likes Received:
    519
    Loc:
    Central Maine
    LOL.. I'll put my wife up against yours. She got 189 last night. It did come with a bit of grumbling though. Said she loaded it too many times yesterday.

    Best I've seen is 194.5... not bad since the boiler idles at 195 at the boiler.

    Most I ever go away for is 8. It's usually 6 or 7. I think she'll like it better when the wood's drier. She told me she was stacking it jumbled yesterday.. the cause of an extra loading I think. I tried loading it perpendicular to the nozzle.. Mixed results.

    JP
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  17. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    420
    Huff & JP
    We had our place rented out for 17 years ,and it was the girls that had success running the system not the guys !!!
     
  18. woodsmaster

    woodsmaster
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,776
    Likes Received:
    136
    Loc:
    N.W. Ohio
    I wish I could get my wife to run the boiler. No not really then I wouldn't have an excuse to get me out of the house for a few minutes. The boiler can need fired at most convienient times.;)
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  19. kopeck

    kopeck
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    80
    Loc:
    Maine
    Maybe a silly question but how much are you guys gaining by getting your storage up to 190 deg? I know I'm comparing apples an oranges a bit here but with my unpressurized (American Solar Technics) 820 gallon tank I'm happy when it hits about 170 to 175. I've been able to get it up to 180 once or twice but it takes quite a bit more wood and a lot more boiler cycling. I'm just wondering if the extra input is worth what you are gaining on output.

    Then again everyone likes a challenge and something to brag about. ;)

    K
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  20. JP11

    JP11
    Expand Collapse
    Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,447
    Likes Received:
    519
    Loc:
    Central Maine
    I don't think it's anything special or using too much wood. My wife in her second day running the boiler just filled it up a couple of times and hit 190 each night on storage. As for what I'm "getting" out of it. Call it 20 degrees of spread with 8k plus pounds of water. So, 160k BTUs more storage.

    Now.. as for heat loss extra at those higher temps.. I just don't know. System is too new.. and I haven't got a couple of the return lines insulated yet.

    JP
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature

Share This Page

Entire Site copyright © 1995-2016 - email to webinfo@hearth.com
Hearth.com and HearthNet are property and trademarks of Hearth.com LLC Advertising Information