752 miles in a Tesla S

[ABMax24]

Looks really impressive, I'd be curious what the cost is.

Personally I think there is a market for an EV with a modest range where a removable pack could be rented to extend the range on longer journeys.

But I just want a big battery, I'll take an F350 with a 500kwh pack please.

 

[stoveliker]

At the expense of spreading micro-plastics for a usable vehicle to kingdom come. Not to mention the fuel burned to make the production.

Exactly

 

[peakbagger]

Tesla 'bricking" cars has been a ongoing issue. Same with John Deere. Both are poster children for why the US needs strong right to repair legislation. The reality is no one actually owns a Tesla or a John Deere as the factory or on board software can and does brick the vehicle if the owner does not use factory service.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

Even if the grid is not totally green or in some areas mostly fossil fuels BEVs and PHEVs still are greener alternatives than an ICE. How does that happen if a fossil fuel is the source of the energy for both? Electric motors are much more efficient than any ICE.

All BEVs have an mpge (miles per gallon equivalent) of well over 100 miles. So changing to a BEV instantly makes your driving 3 times as efficient.

Fuel Economy of New All-Electric Vehicles

Fuel economy of the . 1984 to present Buyer's Guide to Fuel Efficient Cars and Trucks. Estimates of gas mileage, greenhouse gas emissions, safety ratings, and air pollution ratings for new and used cars and trucks.

www.fueleconomy.gov

I don’t see ICEs ever matching that efficiency.

 

[bigealta]

Tesla 'bricking" cars has been a ongoing issue. Same with John Deere. Both are poster children for why the US needs strong right to repair legislation. The reality is no one actually owns a Tesla or a John Deere as the factory or on board software can and does brick the vehicle if the owner does not use factory service.

We've seen this mindset before. GM's EV1 from the 1990's.

 

[walhondingnashua]

I think it's pretty simple to "encourage" change in a more diverse energy production system (I know its more complicated than I will make it in reality). Remove subsidies from any energy production/ related company (fossil fuel or alternative). Let the consumer decide. People want the most for their money and more control. Individual home solar is bombing in our country and more fuel efficient transportation (EV or petroleum) sell better because that's what people want.
Tax breaks for consumers rather than producers because consumers are what really drive the market place under real capitalism.
And finally a carbon tax. Make alternatives "good business." Other than obtaining the rare materials, any larger company can have the technology/ materials they want if its worth a profit to them.

 

[saberbass]

I think it might take a while but slowly people might have 1 electric car for city/ short drives and one gas for longer and towing needs. It will take 20 years for the change over and electrical system upgrade. We are going to need more electricity generation for sure.

 

[stoveliker]

I think it might take a while but slowly people might have 1 electric car for city/ short drives and one gas for longer and towing needs. It will take 20 years for the change over and electrical system upgrade. We are going to need more electricity generation for sure.

That is what's going to happen here. My wife needs a new car, which will be a hybrid. I don't drive much anymore, and I have a tiny (as in TINY) car. Only needed to drive me to work, but the boss decided he doesn't want to pay for the office anymore...
Once my car is done for, I'll by a plug in electric. (Current model would be a Nissan Leaf or so - which is already larger than what I have now...)

With the spare capacity and net metering I have on my solar, I can then drive w/o fuel cost...

 

[woodgeek]

I guess you get lost easily. "Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country. Actually, coal is only used for about 10% of the energy in the US. Hydro, Nuclear, wind, etc. produces only about 21% of our energy in the US despite whatever way upstate NY is producing their power. The future may be here for many, but the power to run electric cars is still about 70% fossil fuel driven, and that is not going to change all that fast. So, Americans can feel good about their electric cars while 70% of the energy to charge them comes from fossil fuel, the same thing the rest of us put in our cars every time we stop at the gas station. So, get the basic facts right.

View attachment 289202

Dan,

Your choice of plot is misleading. It is 'primary energy'. If fossil fuel gets converted to electricity at 33% efficiency, it doesn't get scored by the output electricity, but by the total energy input. If wind makes electricity at 100% eff, the fossils look 3X bigger in this chart! And moreover, the chart is ALL energy, not just electricity....that petroleum wedge in your chart is what EVs are reducing.

The real number for electricity production is 40% renewable and nukes, 40% nat gas (much lower C intensity than oil), and 20% coal.

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

At the end of the day, an EV running of US average electricity already has the same CO2 emissions as a gas car getting 80 mpg, less than a third that of the average new gas car on the road. That actually DOES make me feel pretty good...esp when my sporty Volt goes ZOOM.

Charging An Electric Vehicle Is Far Cleaner Than Driving On Gasoline, Everywhere In America

New research shows just how much cleaner driving an electric vehicle is than driving on gasoline, regardless of where it charges: EVs average 80 miles per gallon emissions equivalent across the U.S. - and reach as high as 191 MPG in New York State.

www.forbes.com

And that number is increasing with time. Another factor is people keep their cars for 20 years...an EV you buy now will be running on renewable generation that hasn't been built yet. A gas car? It will be burning liquid coal in 2042.

 

[woodgeek]

We are making things here in the US with this company, but many (read: most) of the materials are imported. It is not only the rare earth elements, but also many of the components we have limited access to. I agree, we have to start somewhere, but right now, we don't have the technology or materials to switch over to electric cars and other systems as fast as many folks, local and the federal government is pushing for. We lack the ability to totally" switch over by 2025, 2030, or whenever, as many areas are already passing legislature for. We will suffer because of it.

AFAIK, no one is banning gas cars in 2025! California has a ban on NEW gas cars in 2035. Alarmist much? And the way these things work.... it will either be obsolete (unneeded) by 2035, or it will be impossible (in which case it will be repealed). It is posturing, and putting the car makers on notice. Not the Feds coming to your house to seize your gas vehicle. LOL.

And the raw materials in a Tesla are a small part of the sale price. The value add is at a US factory. They make the motors and body domestically. The batteries are made domestically too, but I don't know if the battery materials are made in Japan or not. I think not.

 

[DBoon]

"Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country.

The chart you reference is for total energy consumption, not energy consumed to produce electricity.

Electricity generation by source (fuel) is here https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_03_01_a.html. Fossil fuels are 60% of electricity production, nuclear is 19.7% and utility-scale solar, hydro, and wind is 19.4%. The balance is other. This doesn't count behind the meter solar PV generation, like my PV array. In 2010, fossil fuels were 70%. Coal was 44.7% of electricity generation in 2010 and was only 19.3% in 2020. A lot can happen in 10 years, and a lot more will happen in another 10 years.

I'm not debating that fossil fuels are not the majority of the fuel source for electricity in the US today. There are, however, huge regional differences and blanket statements that electric vehicles just consume fossil fuels in a different form are simply not true.

 

[stoveliker]

But even if true, the efficiency and emissions of centralized power generation and electric driving beats individual ICEs I think.

 

[woodgeek]

The carbon intensity of the US electricity supply has dropped dramatically over the last 15 years. It would be fair to say that that is NOT due to rapid rise in wind and solar (which have gone from 3% to 12% over that period). Rather it is due to switching from cheap coal to cheap natural gas. The latter is both lower carbon per unit of energy AND the plants burning it are newer and more efficient.

This flood of natural gas was not expected 20-25 years ago, when it looked like nat gas production in the US had peaked and begun a slow decline. While some of the new gas is due to fracking for gas specifically (as in western PA) most of it is a **by-product** of wells fracked for oil in the Dakotas and TX. The drillers are making their profit on the oil fraction of what comes out of the hole, and the gas is a low value product that needs to be gotten rid of (and the grid is a convenient place to do so). What is more, as old wells get exhausted and less 'wet' locations drilled, the ratio of gas produced per unit of oil goes UP.

So its fair to say that the decarbonization of the grid, so far, is a side effect of the increase in domestic oil production in the last 15 years!

That said, renewables are poised to rise quickly over the next couple decades. Their 12% barely shows up on the plot above. Wind growth has been slow and linear due to onshore siting limitations. Utility solar (not counting rooftop as mentioned by DBoon), is much easier and faster to install and is growing exponentially with a 40% annual growth rate, and just passed wind production on a global basis.

This growth is bc it is CHEAP, and still getting cheaper. And bc utility solar doesn't feed through the last mile of the grid, tying large amounts of it into the grid is far easier.

The last key point here regards the doomy concerns about EV electricity demand blowing up the grid, or there being an 'electricity shortage' that EVs will exacerbate. Nope. New wind and solar (and gas generators) are cheap, and all three are relatively quick to build. The utilities have been living with flat demand for kWh for 20 years, which makes it very hard to grow or change the generation mix (bc you have to retire capital). Growing demand at the same time cheap (and nearly limitless) solar generation becomes available makes for a new growth oriented business model! That will entail new construction. NET new jobs and new factories and new tech, rather than simply retiring a lot of old worn out infrastructure and laying off miners and plant operators.

 

[salecker]

In a test, Our Next Energy (ONE) put one of their battery packs in a Tesla S. It was tested on real Michigan roads in the winter. The results were exceptional - 752 miles! What this eventually means for the automotive market remains to be seen, but it is an impressive demonstration. BMW has partnered with them, so we will see what develops.

Our Next Energy

ONE is a Michigan-born energy storage company focused on battery technologies that will accelerate the adoption of EVs and expand energy storage solutions.

one.ai

Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different.
Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
$57.00 gas for the day car ran continuously 23 hrs gas here is $1.549 a liter
That was a winter day,no way in hell you can do that with a Tesla.My car 2001 Pontiac Sunfire with 265,000 Km
As much as they try to push EV as the answer they are limited in their ability to truly replace the internal combustion engine in all conditions.
I am sure that at -45C you would need a couple recharges to just keep you ass warm.
No problem in the Sunfire,leave it running and heat on.never had to refill till i got home so none of my valuable time spent in the petri dish was waiting to charge my car,had i been required to recharge i would not have got home till 10-12 pm,by then my house would have been getting very cold because the wood fire would not be going.
Not to say they don't have their place in sunny California,but as a true replacement of doing everything an internal combustion powered veihical can,never.
Besides at -45C it would be getting charged by power produced by an internal combustion engine so basically there is no upside for a EV in the cold climate.

 

[stoveliker]

Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different.
Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
$57.00 gas for the day car ran continuously 23 hrs gas here is $1.549 a liter
That was a winter day,no way in hell you can do that with a Tesla.My car 2001 Pontiac Sunfire with 265,000 Km
As much as they try to push EV as the answer they are limited in their ability to truly replace the internal combustion engine in all conditions.
I am sure that at -45C you would need a couple recharges to just keep you ass warm.
No problem in the Sunfire,leave it running and heat on.never had to refill till i got home so none of my valuable time spent in the petri dish was waiting to charge my car,had i been required to recharge i would not have got home till 10-12 pm,by then my house would have been getting very cold because the wood fire would not be going.
Not to say they don't have their place in sunny California,but as a true replacement of doing everything an internal combustion powered veihical can,never.
Besides at -45C it would be getting charged by power produced by an internal combustion engine so basically there is no upside for a EV in the cold climate.

Winter elsewhere is 40 F...
So "winter" is a relative notion.

Second, this is more than even a Tesla does in "summer" (whatever that may mean).

Third, sure, some modes of transportation are not suitable for some transport. You would not go do the things you did on your bicycle. And you would not drive to Sao Paulo either (indeed, flying uses less fuel to go there than driving).

Finally, I'm sorry about your dog.

 

[woodgeek]

Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different.
Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
$57.00 gas for the day car ran continuously 23 hrs gas here is $1.549 a liter
That was a winter day,no way in hell you can do that with a Tesla.My car 2001 Pontiac Sunfire with 265,000 Km
As much as they try to push EV as the answer they are limited in their ability to truly replace the internal combustion engine in all conditions.
I am sure that at -45C you would need a couple recharges to just keep you ass warm.
No problem in the Sunfire,leave it running and heat on.never had to refill till i got home so none of my valuable time spent in the petri dish was waiting to charge my car,had i been required to recharge i would not have got home till 10-12 pm,by then my house would have been getting very cold because the wood fire would not be going.
Not to say they don't have their place in sunny California,but as a true replacement of doing everything an internal combustion powered veihical can,never.
Besides at -45C it would be getting charged by power produced by an internal combustion engine so basically there is no upside for a EV in the cold climate.

Sorry about your dog @salecker.

FTR, in cold climates L2 charging stations at homes and destinations allow EVs to keep their cabin and battery warm indefinitely, like a block heater in the same climate. The battery box on most EVs is temp controlled with circulating coolant, relatively well insulated, and easily kept at working temp 24/7 plugged into shore power, using less power than a block heater. So that Tesla wouldn't take an hour to get warmed up at -45C. A super-charging stop would take <60 minutes to get the extra range required for the round trip. And if the juice came from nat gas spinning a utility turbine, your CO2 per mile would still be less than the ICE car.

 

[begreen]

We've seen this mindset before. GM's EV1 from the 1990's.

That was more like crushing. Bricking is more like an unauthorized iPhone repair where the phone is fine, but they software block it from booting.

 

[lml999]

Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels?

In my case, the filling station is on my roof, powered by the sun.

 

[begreen]

Some areas have strong hydro. Others have strong wind. In our case it is solar in the summer and hydro/nat gas in the winter. We would really like PSE to get going on geothermal, but by the time they do we'll probably be fusion powered.

 

[EbS-P]

The rural vs urban EV charging infrastructure is some the BBB was addressing here in the US. As far as winter driving Teslas have been tested at subzero temps. Norway is leading the world in EV adoption. They seem to have figured out how to drive EVs in the winter. I think 500 mile plus range in a package that fits in current models points to what we can expect in the future.

Think about it this way. If you can get 150 miles out of battery pack that is 1/4 or less the size and weight of a current battery, you increase mileage so say 200 miles. When it gets cheap enough this is a game changer.

 

[bigealta]

That was more like crushing. Bricking is more like an unauthorized iPhone repair where the phone is fine, but they software block it from booting.

So i was trying to say the creation of a new car technology that the people have, use and want that is then later taken away, blocked from use, etc., at the expense of the owners/users and the public in general as well as the potential benefit to our environment.

 

[walhondingnashua]

Im most likely off with my time frames here, but wasn't there an idea to have electric cars before combustion engines were mainstream? Just imagine what our lives would be like today if all of the developmental efforts went into electric transportation rather than what have now. How different would our daily lives be if we never had gas/ deisel engines and society developed with electric.

 

[stoveliker]

there were electric cars before ICE came to dominance.

 

[bigealta]

there were electric cars before ICE came to dominance.

And multi fuel cars.
And wood fired cars, i see some guys building them again.
My grandfather told me about them when i was a kid (now 56).
He called them gas o gens or something like that. They used them in France during WWII. There was no gas available for the local people, they would have to find wood where ever they were when it ran out of fire.

 

[begreen]

And multi fuel cars.
And wood fired cars, i see some guys building them again.
My grandfather told me about them when i was a kid (now 56).
He called them gas o gens or something like that. They used them in France during WWII. There was no gas available for the local people, they would have to find wood where ever they were when it ran out of fire.

There are still clubs making them. Not something my wife would ever drive. This is a 'compact ' model. Power is about half that of running on gasoline.


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