A Square Peg in a Round Hole

[Benchwrench]

Hello All,

I began measuring my fireplace dimensions against my planned fireplace insert dimensions and found that I would have to cut a notch at both upper corners of the arched brick facade in order for the insert to fit.
These are a few pictures that show in pencil on the brick just how much I need to [strike]shave[/strike] rather, "hack" for the insert to slide into the fireplace.
A horizontal cut of 3 1/2" and 3"vertically.

First of all I believe that's more than a "notch", in fact it's cutting out a whole chunk of roughly 2/3 of the brick. I am concerned that this arch has structure integrity to the facade.
The arch is just a half brick deep, or roughly 4".
Any thoughts and experiences welcome.

a horizontal cut would be 3 1/2"
vertical cut would be 3"

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

Welcome to the forum is as much as I can offer right now. I have no experience with inserts. Although it seems as if you may have more of a project than you bargained for.

 

[begreen]

Considering this is somewhat structural, I would ask a professional mason or two for an opinion.

Or, have you considered putting a a freestanding stove in instead? That nice arch would frame it nicely.

 

[shawneyboy]

[quote author="BeGreen" date="1315441256"]Considering this is somewhat structural, I would ask a professional mason or two for an opinion.

Or, have you considered putting a a freestanding stove in instead? That nice arch would frame it nicely.[/quote]

+1,

 

[Benchwrench]

(hmm...)

you know, I never entertained the idea of a stove.

My hearth is elevated about 15" off the floor and only extends a measly 17" out from the masonry face.
It might be too much of a feat to modify and extend it into the room to accept a stove unless you guys know a way to put some/most of the stove inside the FP opening.
As it stands, I have to add roughly 14" of some sort of non-combustible slab/stone down on the wood floor for an insert application.

 

[ddddddden]

It depends on how high the lintel on that fp is, and how large the stove is. There are a few stoves designed for "hearth mounting" that are only 20-24" deep, and the flue is in the back. Slim pickin's @ 17" deep, but you might be able to squeeze something under your lintel. How 'bout some measurements?

 

[fossil]

Dimensions of the fireplace and opening would certainly help, as would a pic standing a bit away that shows the existing hearth. I really like hearth stove installations, but the height of the opening can really restrict your options. As far as hacking away at those bricks, as BeGreen commented, I wouldn't touch them until a qualified brick mason had inspected and consulted. I imagine there's a steel lintel in there somewhere provding structural support for the bulk of the masonry facade, but that shallow arched opening detail might just be supporting itself. Weakening it could be rather disastrous. Rick

ETA: When you look inside the firebox, what does the "roof" of it look like? It is arched, as well...or rectangular as I would expect?

 

[cmonSTART]

Ditto on the mason consult. Your fireplace face probably uses that arch for support instead of a normal steel lintel, so hacking away at it could prove an issue for the overall structure of the face.

 

[Benchwrench]

There's a steel lintel 4" above the opening or in other words just about one course higher than the arch.
the metal damper assembly rests just under the steel lintel.

the FP opening is almost 40" wide and almost 27" tall with 17.5" of vertical side height.
Those penciled notches in the pictures is just enough room for the insert, leaving roughly 4 1/2" of arch above the insert,(I think the trim will cover this)

Honestly I don't want to cut the brick face at all but if the damper and top course of the smoke shelf has to be demolished in order to accept an insert or stove, at this point I don't see what harm it will be to cut those angles out of the brick. That is unless there are structural considerations, but since there is a steel lintel already in place ...

however it would be nice if someone that installs inserts could chime in on this one.

The penciled notched marks as noted above will be covered by some form of trim no matter what is installed.

and guys, I really appreciate all the advice.

 

[Benchwrench]

I could also make my own lintel if I had to. I'd just frame it in holding up the notch from the hearth or attach/weld it to the internal FP lintel.

This would be installed as structural support across the top of the insert opening once the brick has been cut as per in the pictures if indeed it would be even necessary

 

[tfdchief]

Ditto on the mason consult. Your fireplace face probably uses that arch for support instead of a normal steel lintel, so hacking away at it could prove an issue for the overall structure of the face.

I agree. I don't think there is a steel lintel, just the arch.
Edit, I stand corrected. Posted before I saw the OP's confirmation of a lintel.

 

[Benchwrench]

BTW, I am trying to heat aprox. 4,000 sq'

The 12x12 chimney flue is aprox. 25' from hearth to cap.

the inserts that I am looking at have a 3.0 cu.' firebox ,rather a large insert.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know,
thanks again.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

If you are trying to heat 4000 ft...go with a stove and make sure its the biggest Blaze King you can find
Just kidding, I don't think any insert is going to be able to heat your area, but based on your current setup I would opt for a nice freestanding stove.

 

[fossil]

BTW, I am trying to heat aprox. 4,000 sq'

The 12x12 chimney flue is aprox. 25' from hearth to cap.

the inserts that I am looking at have a 3.0 cu.' firebox ,rather a large insert.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know,
thanks again.

Oh, now you tell us. We need a floor plan of the house. Where in that 4K ft² does this fireplace reside, in relation to everywhere else you'd like to heat? The first idea that comes to my mind is that there isn't a wood burning appliance on the market short of a ducted woodburning furnace that's gonna heat 4K ft². These things are space heaters, and moving the heat they produce around through any house is a challenge. The bigger the house, the bigger the challenge. We need a lot more info. Rick

 

[Benchwrench]

I love freestanding stoves.

Are you implying that an insert won't be up to the same heat output standards as an insert of like build? In other words, comparing apples to apples, a freestanding stove puts out more heat? In this application it would have to be placed within the FP opening and protrude onto the hearth minimally like an insert.

 

[Loco Gringo]

Thats a lot of area to heat with an insert BW.

 

[Benchwrench]

BTW, I am trying to heat aprox. 4,000 sq'

The 12x12 chimney flue is aprox. 25' from hearth to cap.

the inserts that I am looking at have a 3.0 cu.' firebox ,rather a large insert.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know,
thanks again.

Oh, now you tell us. We need a floor plan of the house. Where in that 4K ft² does this fireplace reside, in relation to everywhere else you'd like to heat? The first idea that comes to my mind is that there isn't a wood burning appliance on the market short of a ducted woodburning furnace that's gonna heat 4K ft². These things are space heaters, and moving the heat they produce around through any house is a challenge. The bigger the house, the bigger the challenge. We need a lot more info. Rick

the below is a better floor plan description. This post has been edited.

 

[Benchwrench]

updated post, (tried to edit the above post but made a mistake)

RE: dimensions

The FP is an outside wall FP located mostly in the corner having an 8' window on each side of the FP. There is an 8' high ceiling just over the FP that measures 10'x14, then the ceiling goes all the way up past the second floor to the roof (no attic) It's an open floor plan. There is also a masonry FP located in the basement. Total home is about 5,000 sq'.

the living room area floor space where the main FP is located measures 22'x28' However half of this main living area (22x28) has an 8' ceiling. The rest of the main floor square footage is taken up by the stairs and entryway both having a high ceiling.

I was hoping that I could buy a 3.0 cu.' insert rated at 97k btu's that would help keep this place cozy.

Rick, if you need any more info, please let me know.[/quote]

 

[dafattkidd]

Maybe I missed something here, but what is the distance from the back of the fireplace to the front of the hearth? This seems like a really nice set up for a hearth mounted stove. That fireplace is beautiful and will radiate a ton of heat. It's late so I may have missed something in the thread. Notching that brick seems really difficult.

 

[ddddddden]

FattKidd, I agree that a hearth stove would be nice, but the lintel is only 27" high @ center, 17" @ sides. Any stove that fit under there would be way too small to come close to meeting OP's needs. Benchwrench, if I had to get into remodeling that hearth, I'd do what Todd did with his hearth. . .demo the lentil and damper, then brick it in higher, leaving only a hole for a stove pipe. Then put a big h0nkin' st0ve in the recess that was a fireplace. Inserts tend to lose heat to the masonry chimney, hence the preference for stoves.

 

[Benchwrench]

the FP depth is 25"
the steel lentil is 32" high, it's the arched opening that's 27" high. The lentil is one course back and one course up from the arch edge. (from arch opening it would be 4" up and 4" back)
the hearth is > 15" high from the wood floor and only 17" deep (from hearth face to edge)
I'll include another picture giving you guys a more overall idea of what I have to work with.

Again guys, I am starting from scratch, ie; a hole in the wall and a hole in the roof.
I really appreciate the feedback and advice as this really helps me make a more intelligent decision on how to heat this place AND retaining the look of the arch.

 

[Benchwrench]

FattKidd, I agree that a hearth stove would be nice, but the lintel is only 27" high @ center, 17" @ sides. Any stove that fit under there would be way too small to come close to meeting OP's needs. Benchwrench, if I had to get into remodeling that hearth, I'd do what Todd did with his hearth. . .demo the lentil and damper, then brick it in higher, leaving only a hole for a stove pipe. Then put a big h0nkin' st0ve in the recess that was a fireplace. Inserts tend to lose heat to the masonry chimney, hence the preference for stoves.

I'd like use what I have to work with and leave the 27" arched opening just as it is and find out what would fit/work best.
I really like the hearth mounted stove idea, I think it would heat better than an insert and add another dimension of character to this place.
But, I just can't come to terms with a demo job of the arch, making my options somewhat limited.
If I'm going to go in this direction, I think a rear vented, large stove with real short legs or pedestal may be the ticket of taking the place of an insert. (just an idea)

 

[Milton Findley]

I agree with you. That fireplace should be left alone, it is beautiful. Finding a hearth mounted stove with a rear exit less than 27 inches might be an issue though, although my Heritage would fit. The issue is that the stove will have to sit out in the room and the foot print hearth would have to be extended in order to meet the floor protection specifications.

 

[begreen]

BTW, I am trying to heat aprox. 4,000 sq'

The 12x12 chimney flue is aprox. 25' from hearth to cap.

the inserts that I am looking at have a 3.0 cu.' firebox ,rather a large insert.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know,
thanks again.

That sheds a whole new light on the topic. You need a wood furnace or boiler if the intent is to heat 4000 sq ft. Or at least, multiple stoves. That is a really big home.

 

[Benchwrench]

Thanks all for the feedback, I've decided to forgo any demo to this job and use the WYSIWYG approach.

However, I have a basic Question;
does the measurement for the ember protection distance requirement taken at the door of the appliance, or the furthest most knob and/or handle ?
EDIT: nevermind, it's in the install manual. [sic] "measurement is taken from the fuel door opening".

I know it might be asking a bit much to ask of an appliance to heat 4,000 sq.' According to the climate chart, I'm located right on the border between zones 2 & 3, in other words; cold and really cold but at least not stupid cold like ND, MT, or WI, ME, ... However last year, that was not fun, house bound for a week during that frigid ice storm.