Advice for newbie's first stove: PE vs BK

[begreen]

I haven't tried Redstones yet, but am tempted to test them. It will cost about $20 to run a big load of 12 in the T6 and that would only be about 1/2 full.

Did a little checking. IIRC Redstones used to be about $3.50 a 6 pack. They have gone up a lot in price, $3.50 for 3 now. I hope the quality has improved. Initial impressions when they first showed up were not great. ECO blocks and BIO Bricks were denser & longer burning. I see that Menards also sells fuel blocks that might be worth trying out in comparison.

 

[kennyp2339]

This is so helpful, thank you! Do you find it's as "finicky" or hard to learn as some people claim?

Not at all, takes about 2 6packs of your favorite beverage to dial in, then its set it and forget it

 

[jdr7]

Not at all, takes about 2 6packs of your favorite beverage to dial in, then its set it and forget it

Strong selling point for me 😝

 

[jdr7]

First, where in eastern PA? Bucks? MontCo? DelCo?

Second, anything you've heard about BK being "finicky" pertains only to burning extremely low and slow. These stoves have an ability to burn way lower than others on the market, and that comes with some caveats. You'd better have a reasonably ideal setup, if your goal is chasing minimum burn rates of 10 hours per cubic foot.

On the other hand, if not chasing that dragon, BK's are very simple and notably not finicky to operate. They're extremely controllable and predictable stoves. If burning a BK at what would be the minimum rate on the PE, which is really like "medium" on the BK, expect no hint of "finicky" from it.

That said, I wouldn't say anything negative about PE, they have a very solid reputation, and are one of the few brands about which we almost never see any complaints. You really can't go wrong with either BK or PE, they're among the top few choices (if not the top choice) in their respective technology groups (cat vs. non-cat).

Bucks! Kintnersville, to be specific. This is super helpful, thank you. Leaning towards the PE, simply to not have to deal with the cat learning curve. I'm sure it's amazing, but I have a full time job, side business, and 2 year old - so we're pretty busy. I feel like the PE will be great, and easier to get started with.

 

[stoveliker]

The PE will have no less of a learning curve. Possibly worse. And will require more interaction with the stove than the BK, in particular in shoulder seasons.

 

[Ashful]

Bucks! Kintnersville, to be specific. This is super helpful, thank you. Leaning towards the PE, simply to not have to deal with the cat learning curve. I'm sure it's amazing, but I have a full time job, side business, and 2 year old - so we're pretty busy. I feel like the PE will be great, and easier to get started with.

Excellent. I know Kintersville well, in fact came close to buying an old house on some property there, about 12-15 years ago.

The even better news is that my favorite stove shop is in your town. Not only did they give me a far better deal on a pair of BK's than anyone else Bux/Mont, they did free delivery (I'm an hour away), and just made the whole process super easy. Great people, great prices, and they're a BK dealer.

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[kennyp2339]

In all fairness, and this doesnt matter whether its a BK or PE, all stoves run a bit differently compared to others of the same brand. Local conditions, climate, type of wood, draft, chimney type and location all contribute to different burns, I say this because it needs to be said, there's lots of threads with people that say... I can get 24hrs per load with my t-stat set at xyz o'clock, well xyz o'clock might be my efg o'clock setting and so on.
The biggest thing to learn from the start after you get through the dry wood hurdle (<20%) is when making a fire from a cold stove and after shutting the stove door - setting a timer for 20min, get into the habit of checking the stove after 20min to make sure things are going good. With an epa stove, after 20min you might have to dial the air back, with a cat stove you may be able to shut the by-pass door (this is learning the stove and your particular application / parameters for running a clean burn and getting the most out of your wood supply.

 

[begreen]

The PE will have no less of a learning curve. Possibly worse. And will require more interaction with the stove than the BK, in particular in shoulder seasons.

Right. Imagine missing having to time bypass closing, monitor cat temps, clean out fly ash from cat, etc. is worse. Nonsense.

 

[stoveliker]

Your view. I believe not having used a BK.

 

[stoveliker]

Right. Imagine missing having to time bypass closing, monitor cat temps, clean out fly ash from cat, etc. is worse. Nonsense.

Bypass closing isnthe same effort as dialing down a tube stove.
No need to monitor a cat; I see it when I dial down, and it just runs after that.

I have what you call a tall chimney and I have not seen flyash on my cat.

You are off base.


Moreover, you said so yourself. You said that the PE can also run constantly after a reload. I.e. walk away come back 10 hrs later. Fine, so in winter it's similar.

And then you say that the PE can run fine in shoulder seasons, providing less heat by having smaller fires. That means more (small) reloads or more cold starts. My stove just runs 24 hrs on one load.

The conclusion is that you interact more times with your stove over a heating season than a BK owner does. No denying that.

And that is what I said.
Why? Because interactions entail a learning curve. No interaction? Then nothing to learn.


Moreover, the thermostat even heat output of the BK decreases the learning curve significantly - no need to think about heat output cycles and fluctuations.

I therefore strongly object to your classification of "nonsense" based on the above. I am convinced this view is not wrong. And I am not convinced you actually know how a BK operates.

Note, though, that I did not say a PE is not a good stove. I noted that you can't really make a mistake choosing between the two.

 

[rijim]

Great question. The basement is only partial, about 500 sq ft (of the 1600 sq ft total). We plan to run a space heater if needed, but last year we didn't do anything and it covered in the 40's or 50's (though, I guess we were running the boiler down there which emitted some heat). I read that it wouldn't really be a concern since it's underground and won't dip below 40~ if the whole home is 75ish. HVAC folks came out to evaluate mini splits (the low temp ones) and said I wouldn't need to worry about the basement. That said, I'm a novice and that was one of my early concerns - do you think I should look at another option?

As far as pushing air, I was told I'd want to blow hot air down the bedroom hallway. But what you're saying makes more sense. Do you typically put a fan down the bedrooms and push it out into the furnace room?

We have a ranch also and place a fan in the hall pushing cooler air towards the stove, works much better. Don’t worry about the learning curve with a CAT stove, don’t over complicate it and it is pretty straight forward ( bypass open burn adjust at max, once sensor indicates active, close the bypass, when temp probe gets a little past mid-point in active zone, start to dial burn adjust back to your cruise temp) . In all but the coldest weather, we reload once a day and run at the lower end of the burn rate. I run mostly ENVI 8 blocks, the key with blocks is not to leave air gaps between them, I haven’t found the need to overstuff the fire box usually 2 packs gets us through a day ( 2 1/2 when in single digits). Around here, most wood suppliers store the wood in large piles limiting airflow/drying; oak needs 2 years with good air flow, we don’t have the room to store 3 years worth of wood. The costs are comparable.

 

[TheElementalCashew]

Did a little checking. IIRC Redstones used to be about $3.50 a 6 pack. They have gone up a lot in price, $3.50 for 3 now. I hope the quality has improved. Initial impressions when they first showed up were not great. ECO blocks and BIO Bricks were denser & longer burning. I see that Menards also sells fuel blocks that might be worth trying out in comparison.

I stopped into Tractor Supply last night and they were out of Restone bricks, but the listed price was $4.49 for 6 bricks.

They did have something called GrenHeat bricks, which cost $7 and came in a package of 20, though they look like smaller bricks. I picked one up and hope to give a few of them a try this week for our first fire of the season.

 

[Ashful]

Note that stoveliker wasn't here for the epic "cat vs. non-cat" battles of 2014/15.

Bottom line, both BK and PE make excellent stoves, it's highly unlikely you'll have any issues with either. If you want ability to slow burn / max burn times, BK. If you like the looks of a PE, or are worried about replacing a combustor every few years, go PE. Don't believe anyone who ever tells you one is more complicated than the other to burn, there are plenty of people much dumber than you, successfully operating both.

 

[Todd]

I don’t know if this has been stated or not but if a good flame show is desired the PE will win out hands down. These BK owners brag about these 24 hour burns but rarely tell you about the solid black glass you need to scrape off with a razor blade after those long slow burns. May or may not be a big deal for some.

 

[jdr7]

Excellent. I know Kintersville well, in fact came close to buying an old house on some property there, about 12-15 years ago.

The even better news is that my favorite stove shop is in your town. Not only did they give me a far better deal on a pair of BK's than anyone else Bux/Mont, they did free delivery (I'm an hour away), and just made the whole process super easy. Great people, great prices, and they're a BK dealer.

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Yes! That's who we'd be going with

Just got a quote from them. It's insanely high, but I understand everybody is these days. My sister-in-law used them, and the quality and service is second to none.

They advised us to go with PE Summit (vs BK Princess) because 1) Princess is backordered until January, and 2) PE Summit would be "less picky" about the wood we put in it. That said, people are making good arguments here for the use of it.

 

[jdr7]

I don’t know if this has been stated or not but if a good flame show is desired the PE will win out hands down. These BK owners brag about these 24 hour burns but rarely tell you about the solid black glass you need to scrape off with a razor blade after those long slow burns. May or may not be a big deal for some.

Yeah, we learned this in our research. The company we're working with said the BK can be turned up high and the glass will clean - but PE is better viewing hands down.

 

[jdr7]

Note that stoveliker wasn't here for the epic "cat vs. non-cat" battles of 2014/15.

Bottom line, both BK and PE make excellent stoves, it's highly unlikely you'll have any issues with either. If you want ability to slow burn / max burn times, BK. If you like the looks of a PE, or are worried about replacing a combustor every few years, go PE. Don't believe anyone who ever tells you one is more complicated than the other to burn, there are plenty of people much dumber than you, successfully operating both.

Haha, this is the best encouragement yet. That's what I was thinking when the company was telling us - I was like, "I can read a manual, and do what you tell me." We'll evaluate based on what you said here, and the viewing quality of the flame. I think that makes sense. Sounds like both are going to need more wood/attention in the dead of winter here.

 

[jdr7]

We have a ranch also and place a fan in the hall pushing cooler air towards the stove, works much better. Don’t worry about the learning curve with a CAT stove, don’t over complicate it and it is pretty straight forward ( bypass open burn adjust at max, once sensor indicates active, close the bypass, when temp probe gets a little past mid-point in active zone, start to dial burn adjust back to your cruise temp) . In all but the coldest weather, we reload once a day and run at the lower end of the burn rate. I run mostly ENVI 8 blocks, the key with blocks is not to leave air gaps between them, I haven’t found the need to overstuff the fire box usually 2 packs gets us through a day ( 2 1/2 when in single digits). Around here, most wood suppliers store the wood in large piles limiting airflow/drying; oak needs 2 years with good air flow, we don’t have the room to store 3 years worth of wood. The costs are comparable.

Awesome, this is so helpful, thank you. I was told my the store selling the stove that we can't use bricks in a BK Princess. He said it will burn too hot, too quick, and warp/damage the cat (if I'm remembering correctly). Is that true?

 

[stoveliker]

@Todd

That is another misunderstanding. BKs don't burn in black box mode always. They only do so in the output range that is inaccessible to tube stoves. In the 'normal' range, one has normal flames.

The BK only is black box in the extended output range on the low end, where the PE requires small fires to reach that low output, leading to frequent reloads, cold starts, and temperature swings.

When one burns full loads, in 8-12 hrs there is no difference in the presence of a flame show. The flames do look different, as in no (artificial looking, in my taste) gas-stove jets at the tubes in the top of the firebox.

It's only a trade off between lazy black box mode versus frequent stove tending.

And I never scrape anything. I just burn high for 30 minutes or so if I want to clean the window.

Finally, this is not a cat vs noncat debate. It is a conveying of what it is to burn a BK .

 

[stoveliker]

Awesome, this is so helpful, thank you. I was told my the store selling the stove that we can't use bricks in a BK Princess. He said it will burn too hot, too quick, and warp/damage the cat (if I'm remembering correctly). Is that true?

No.
Even BKVP has burned bricks. Many do.

 

[Ashful]

I don’t know if this has been stated or not but if a good flame show is desired the PE will win out hands down. These BK owners brag about these 24 hour burns but rarely tell you about the solid black glass you need to scrape off with a razor blade after those long slow burns. May or may not be a big deal for some.

I'm guessing you've never owned a BK, in reading this statement.

When burned at any rate equivalent to what the PE can do, the BK will have similar flame show. It's not like the BK magically changes the properties of the wood you're burning, somehow suppressing flame that naturally appears at a given burn rate.



Yes, you can also turn BK's down to "black box" mode, way below where any non-cat could ever possibly burn, but no one says you have to run down there.

One of my BK's is run with flame show more than 60% of the time, at a rate that consumes 3 cubic feet of wood in 12 hours. I run the other (smaller addition) at a rate of 3 cubic feet per 24 hours, and that one is indeed black most of the time. You have both options.

 

[Todd]

I'm guessing you've never owned a BK, in reading this statement.

When burned at any rate equivalent to what the PE can do, the BK will have similar flame show. It's not like the BK magically changes the properties of the wood you're burning, somehow suppressing flame that naturally appears at a given burn rate.

View attachment 300838

Yes, you can also turn BK's down to "black box" mode, way below where any non-cat could ever possibly burn, but no one says you have to run down there.

One of my BK's is run with flame show more than 60% of the time, at a rate that consumes 3 cubic feet of wood in 12 hours. I run the other (smaller addition) at a rate of 3 cubic feet per 24 hours, and that one is indeed black most of the time. You have both options.

Yes I have owned a BK Princess in the past and during the shoulder season I burned a 24 hr schedule with a black box and glass. It didn’t bother me much but the wife didn’t like it. During the colder months I went to a 8-12 hr schedule but still lots of black around the glass edges.

I can load my current non cat every 24 hrs as well just need a fire starter lol. I may have a higher 8-10 degree house temp swing between loads, (that’s one thing I miss about the BK) but I feel it’s better than doing small fires every 4-8 hours to keep a more even house temp during shoulder season. As the temps get colder I’ll go to 8-12 true burn time mode and rarely have to clean the glass.

 

[Ashful]

Good info. But why didn't you just turn up the BK a little, to get flame show? I know the air wash on the Princess isn't as good as the BK30's, so the glass may have been gummed up after running extended low burns, but mine always burns the glass clean (other than lower corners) after a short time with flame.

The only shortcoming I've seen in the BK30's is that, in an apparent effort to keep the glass cleaner (vs. older models like Princess or King), they increased the amount or velocity of air brought in thru the air wash. This can stir up fly ash and clog your combustor, if your draft is way over max spec, as mine was on one of my two Ashford 30's. This was resolved with a key damper, but that's an added bit of hardware that not everyone wants to fiddle with, so something to consider for folks with very tall chimneys (eg. over 25 feet).

 

[Todd]

Good info. But why didn't you just turn up the BK a little, to get flame show? I know the air wash on the Princess isn't as good as the BK30's, so the glass may have been gummed up after running extended low burns, but mine always burns the glass clean (other than lower corners) after a short time with flame.

The only shortcoming I've seen in the BK30's is that, in an apparent effort to keep the glass cleaner (vs. older models like Princess or King), they increased the amount or velocity of air brought in thru the air wash. This can stir up fly ash and clog your combustor, if your draft is way over max spec, as mine was on one of my two Ashford 30's. This was resolved with a key damper, but that's an added bit of hardware that not everyone wants to fiddle with, so something to consider for folks with very tall chimneys (eg. over 25 feet).

Sure I could turn the stat up for flame but you would have to turn it way up and wait an hour or so to burn the black off and never seemed to clean it off completely after a few days of low and slow.

 

[Ashful]

Sure I could turn the stat up for flame but you would have to turn it way up and wait an hour or so to burn the black off and never seemed to clean it off completely after a few days of low and slow.

Understood. The BK30's are definitely better, in that regard. My window gets pretty clean (see image above) after just the mandatory 20 minutes on high, required at the beginning of each load.

I can blacken it up pretty good, running low and slow, but it always burns off on the next reload. The lower corners stay black, as well as a little fringe up the sides, but most of the window cleans itself. The photo I posted above is actually the stove I run low and slow on 24 hour cycles, as noted by the stone (versus brick) floor. That photo was likely taken near or at the end of the usual 20 minutes on high, before turning down.