I have owned code books for the past 35 years been a Building and Mechanical inspector the past 12 years. Have I missed something? I thought it was quite clear codes require permits and sucesfull inspections. I have the HPBA. Hearth Handbook for building Officials with all kinds of codes to be followed. Please if anyone providw code language where permitting and inspections are not require. I would really appreciate it. I too am willing to be educated, I can't find it in the International Mechanical Codes which have been adopted by all 50 states. I have the latest 2006 edition and still can not find any exemptions
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the only devation from code that i know of is that pellet stoves dont require permitting in boulder county. Does local code take precedence over national code?
Certainly most "zoned" areas of the country require permits to install new stove or chimney installations.
As usual, the gray areas start somewhere else!
I've had building officials explain various scenarios to me, and the only consistent thing is that they each have a different opinion!
For instance, I have had inspectors tell me we don't need a permit for replacing a stove - no more so than for replacing a kitchen stove or a dishwasher or a washer/dryer.
I have had inspectors tell me we don't need a permit to install fireplace inserts - but this was in the old days...before most of them used linings. At that time, the inspector likened an insert to a "window air conditioner" and commented that the fireplace itself was already there, so just adding an approved appliance (like a washer/dryer or dishwasher) was OK.
As you know, code books are not written in english - if they were, they would have a simple FAQ about such things...like:
1. Do I need a permit to replace a stove with a newer model?
2. Do I need a permit to replace my rusting class A chimney?
3. Do I need a permit to replace the top 3 flue tiles in my masonry chimney, and rebuild the crown?
Like it or not, the answer is not in the question of safety. For instance, no permit is need for a homeowner to replace a circuit breaker, or replace a ceiling fan, or fix a light switch or receptacle....and that could surely cause some safety problems. Replacing the gas dryer can also cause problems because of improper venting and connection, but you and I (and the lamp post) know that 99% of appliance stores do not get permits for their replacement installations.
So all the poor homeowner can do is ask the stove shop or local inspector - which is, of course, a crap shoot depending on the quality of those individuals.
At this point....in my old stove shop....a permit is pulled on 90% plus of jobs, with the exception perhaps being replacement of a modern stove into a chimney which is known to be good. All gas jobs except repairs and troubleshooting are permitted, since that is fairly clear in the codes.
But it's hard to sit here in the 3rd most populated state in the US and really see what goes on elsewhere. Lots of folks live in the boonies, and I suppose we would be shocked to find out what goes on.....then again, houses are not burning down in droves.
It has always been my guess that the vast majority of products being carried out the door at Home Depot, from 440 volt electrical materials to plumbing, is being installed by homeowners or handymen without permits. If HD required a permit to be shown before purchasing such materials, they would be out of business in a week.
As usual, the gray areas start somewhere else!
I've had building officials explain various scenarios to me, and the only consistent thing is that they each have a different opinion!
For instance, I have had inspectors tell me we don't need a permit for replacing a stove - no more so than for replacing a kitchen stove or a dishwasher or a washer/dryer.
I have had inspectors tell me we don't need a permit to install fireplace inserts - but this was in the old days...before most of them used linings. At that time, the inspector likened an insert to a "window air conditioner" and commented that the fireplace itself was already there, so just adding an approved appliance (like a washer/dryer or dishwasher) was OK.
As you know, code books are not written in english - if they were, they would have a simple FAQ about such things...like:
1. Do I need a permit to replace a stove with a newer model?
2. Do I need a permit to replace my rusting class A chimney?
3. Do I need a permit to replace the top 3 flue tiles in my masonry chimney, and rebuild the crown?
Like it or not, the answer is not in the question of safety. For instance, no permit is need for a homeowner to replace a circuit breaker, or replace a ceiling fan, or fix a light switch or receptacle....and that could surely cause some safety problems. Replacing the gas dryer can also cause problems because of improper venting and connection, but you and I (and the lamp post) know that 99% of appliance stores do not get permits for their replacement installations.
So all the poor homeowner can do is ask the stove shop or local inspector - which is, of course, a crap shoot depending on the quality of those individuals.
At this point....in my old stove shop....a permit is pulled on 90% plus of jobs, with the exception perhaps being replacement of a modern stove into a chimney which is known to be good. All gas jobs except repairs and troubleshooting are permitted, since that is fairly clear in the codes.
But it's hard to sit here in the 3rd most populated state in the US and really see what goes on elsewhere. Lots of folks live in the boonies, and I suppose we would be shocked to find out what goes on.....then again, houses are not burning down in droves.
It has always been my guess that the vast majority of products being carried out the door at Home Depot, from 440 volt electrical materials to plumbing, is being installed by homeowners or handymen without permits. If HD required a permit to be shown before purchasing such materials, they would be out of business in a week.
Ok this is just a discussion. I am not here to grade answers.
Here is what I was presented Friday. I got an e-mail in my office asking me if I would represent the State of MA.
At the annal national code review in Atlanta in Sept. Someone like my suggestion that HVAC systems should be tied into the smoke detection systems in residential homes.
Upon smoke detection it would automatically shut the HVAC system down preventing the spread of smoke and gasses. This proposal also has gotten approval of the state Fire marshals/ and that The NFPA in Quincy Ma. They would help draft the proposal.. I figured if I accept the invitation ,, that if anyone had more admendments or code language , this would be a good time as any to air them out
BTW the State also approved language that would allow qualified shimney sweeps and licenced or certified pellet stove tech /installers to do just that As it stands only people holding a construction supervisors licence may preform the work. It was my suggestion at the code review comittee that certified pellet tech were more qualified and should be allowed to make installations. I also,pushed to accept certified chimney sweeps. Apparently they listened and we are moving forward to adoption code language and licence regulations.
It is also hoped to bring this to the national level. Again the NFPA is fully behind these proposals
Gunner I have really tried to stay out of general discussions. I have not posted in the ash can since I took a vacation. Would you rather I keep it to myself, if so I can delete this post and not help anyone. If this is your wish, I will honor it. Makes no difference to me I thought a discussion is helpfull and valued oppinions here. But I can figure it out myself thank you
Here is what I was presented Friday. I got an e-mail in my office asking me if I would represent the State of MA.
At the annal national code review in Atlanta in Sept. Someone like my suggestion that HVAC systems should be tied into the smoke detection systems in residential homes.
Upon smoke detection it would automatically shut the HVAC system down preventing the spread of smoke and gasses. This proposal also has gotten approval of the state Fire marshals/ and that The NFPA in Quincy Ma. They would help draft the proposal.. I figured if I accept the invitation ,, that if anyone had more admendments or code language , this would be a good time as any to air them out
BTW the State also approved language that would allow qualified shimney sweeps and licenced or certified pellet stove tech /installers to do just that As it stands only people holding a construction supervisors licence may preform the work. It was my suggestion at the code review comittee that certified pellet tech were more qualified and should be allowed to make installations. I also,pushed to accept certified chimney sweeps. Apparently they listened and we are moving forward to adoption code language and licence regulations.
It is also hoped to bring this to the national level. Again the NFPA is fully behind these proposals
Gunner I have really tried to stay out of general discussions. I have not posted in the ash can since I took a vacation. Would you rather I keep it to myself, if so I can delete this post and not help anyone. If this is your wish, I will honor it. Makes no difference to me I thought a discussion is helpfull and valued oppinions here. But I can figure it out myself thank you
Craig as for Home Depot, I was part of a sting opperation where they sold gas hot water heaters and installed them without permits
They paid or donated 1.3 mill to a charity and naturally admitted no guilt.
They paid or donated 1.3 mill to a charity and naturally admitted no guilt.
elkimmeg said:
The homeowner should be responsible for the permit. If Home Depot is stupid enough not to ask the homeowner if they have a permit, and still do the install if the homeowner does not, then yes your sting is fine. I hope the sting went after the homeowners as well . . .
In most cases permits are useless. I've seen plenty of equipment installed with a permit that was done improperly.
I would be more concerned with a safety inspection than with a permit.
All permits do is line the pockets of the local city or county.
I would be more concerned with a safety inspection than with a permit.
All permits do is line the pockets of the local city or county.
the point of the permiting process is to catch shotty work, an inspection on a permited job would be the saftey inspection you speak of. So i would disagree that in most cases permits are useless. Permitting is completly necessary IMO, to insure the homeowner is protected. After all, if the house blows up on a permitted job the problem falls on the shoulders of the person who issued, and signed off on the permit.
Contractors are typically responsible for pulling permits, not homeowners.
Contractors are typically responsible for pulling permits, not homeowners.
It really does vary from region to region and from inspector to inspector. For our final, no real inspection on our install other than a quick visual. He just said looks good. Insurance company said - you had an exisiting stove right? No problem then.
I know I needed one in Middleboro and had to have it inspected when I was done with the job.
He wanted the specifics on the hearthpad as well.
Todd, spoof of VH1 Behind the music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkFsB7aoET0
He wanted the specifics on the hearthpad as well.
Todd, spoof of VH1 Behind the music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkFsB7aoET0
elk why cant anyone in mass but a plumber put venting in on a gas stove or fireplace the hearth guys know more then the plumbers in this case as well ct has just adopted a licenes for specialty work on gas hearth appliances using nfi as the guide they can do work from the gas connection up to the venting but not the install of the gas line with it.
elkimmeg said:
When I worked at the Home Depot here in Madison, we charged people for the permits if it applied for the area they lived in. I damn well hope the guy installing them was actually pulling them.
Ellk, I agree with you. The code changes you propose are not only logical, but cost effective. You will again lay yourself out for potshots from the opposition. Stand strong and let the chips fall where they might. Your thoughtful approach is driven by the value of having good regs. Then the question becomes, can we really make everyone a stove tech and an auto mechanic and a plumber and an electrician...... Get my drift, "I can do that, what's so hard about that? You don't have to have a license to do that. It's just a rip off." However, when the home burns to the ground and the insurance company says, "So sad, so bad" who screams the most. There was a time in America when property owners took responsibility for their property and didn't put it off on an insurance company. Thanks Prudential, you've screwed our values royally. Put it back where it belongs.
Don't let the insurance companies get away with owner disregard, or stupidity.
Don't let the insurance companies get away with owner disregard, or stupidity.
MountainStoveGuy said:
MSG - I don't know about CO, but here in MA, the only thing an permit / inspection is guaranteed to do for you in here in MA is increase your costs - the homeowner is NOT protected by it, unless fortunate enough to have a competent inspector like Elk... We got nailed for several thousand dollars a few years back because the guy that built our house, who pulled permits, and got all the required inspections, put in a plastic water main when developing the private road extension we live on, (the water main is supposedly still town property, as is all the plumbing on their side of the meter) despite municipal codes that quite clearly require cast iron. When the plastic pipe started breaking down and we got fountains in our driveway the town told us to pay the expense of digging it all up and putting in cast, as they didn't have the ability to service plastic. We asked about how come it was OK for the previous owners to use plastic, and why we should pay for replacing what the town had approved. We got a big shrug, and were told that MA law quite specifically exempts permitting authorities and inspectors from liability for any problems due to errors in inspections.
I've also found gross errors in our electrical wiring, some I've fixed, one I haven't fixed because it would require major reconstruction of several walls to change the wiring - it is a 3-way light circuit with loads at each switch, a neutral at each switch(from a different circuit), and a floating hot traveler - I couldn't figure out what was going on looking at the code books, so I called in an electrician who took over 30 minutes to figure it out, and wasn't sure how it had ever worked... (but it got inspected and signed off)
This is also a house that has apparently had a sump pump connected to the municipal sewer since it was built (and inspected and signed off...) We are going to have to pay to get that fixed as well...
Elk does make a reasonable case that an inspector can't realistically check every detail, but at least two out of the three of the problems mentioned should have been glaringly visible on the most cursory inspection (the water main and the illegal sump pump connect), and the third reasonably so...
However in MA, if you don't pull a permit and your house blows up the town will tell you that's tough luck, and here's a fine for the "outlaw work". If you do pull a permit, the only thing that changes as far as the town is concerned is that they don't give you the fine...
Gooserider
Home construction and modification is truly a "buyer beware" area in the extreme. The permitting process is intended to protect the homeowner from shoddy contractors who do a piss-poor job and create unsafe living conditions...unfortunately you're at the mercy of the inspectors when this comes into play, and even the best, most anal retentive inspector will miss something on large scale projects. I'm lucky in that my inspector (at least the building inspector) actually cares about doing his job properly and when he came to my house to hand deliver the permit for the stove installation he checked my hearthpad for offsets, clearances, and R-factor...at first he didn't like that I made the subframe out of 2x4 lumber until he read the stove manual specifying the R-factor, the manufacturer data sheets on the cement boards I used and then multiplied the R-factor per 1/4" to the thickness I laid down and he was very happy with it.
My electrical inspector on the other hand is an idiot. When my house was built a few years ago and the inspector came through he didn't pick up on the fact thaat there were no GFI oulets in my kitchen, bathroom or under my jet tub. I checked the breaker box too, figuring that it would be logical to remove the GFI to a physically remote location in the event the tub cracks or something and there is enough water to submerge the outlet...nothing. I put GFI's on all the outlets myself and dropped one in the breaker panel for the jet tub too. I as pretty surprised and called the guy and he just kind of blew me off.
I know the inspections can be a pain in the butt, but the codes and rules are very much designed to maximize homeowner safety, not to hassle us and not to generate funds for the town...its unfortunate that the inspectors don't all do their jobs, but people being people thats just the way it goes...if you know your inspector isn't doing any real inspecting you ought to inform your local town council or police department or selectman or whatever...its wrong and could lead to a disaster.
My electrical inspector on the other hand is an idiot. When my house was built a few years ago and the inspector came through he didn't pick up on the fact thaat there were no GFI oulets in my kitchen, bathroom or under my jet tub. I checked the breaker box too, figuring that it would be logical to remove the GFI to a physically remote location in the event the tub cracks or something and there is enough water to submerge the outlet...nothing. I put GFI's on all the outlets myself and dropped one in the breaker panel for the jet tub too. I as pretty surprised and called the guy and he just kind of blew me off.
I know the inspections can be a pain in the butt, but the codes and rules are very much designed to maximize homeowner safety, not to hassle us and not to generate funds for the town...its unfortunate that the inspectors don't all do their jobs, but people being people thats just the way it goes...if you know your inspector isn't doing any real inspecting you ought to inform your local town council or police department or selectman or whatever...its wrong and could lead to a disaster.
The permitting process is designed to do a lot of things, including:
1. Safety
2. Informing the tax dept so they can raise your property taxes
3. Making the insurance and mortgage companies sleep better at night (and make more money, therefore charging you less in the end).
It's a bit like medicine in some ways - the doctor knows a lot, but YOU are ultimately responsible for much of your health. I guess that is the Buyer Beware part.
Our local inspector was pretty good when I framed by recent shop project. He noticed that the framers were a few nails short in a critical place - where the rafters and ceiling joists meet on the outside wall plate. Not that the house would have fell in, but I suppose if I was in a hurricane or tornado zone....or if the roof was low slope and had snow/ice, it could have caused problems.
One reason that I think codes are so strict is that people often go only part way to following them. Luckily, the extra margin of safety often protects their life and property.
To put this stuff in the real world, when I lived in TN. we had a neighbor die from using a power saw on a wet day - outside his garage. No GFI, of course.
1. Safety
2. Informing the tax dept so they can raise your property taxes
3. Making the insurance and mortgage companies sleep better at night (and make more money, therefore charging you less in the end).
It's a bit like medicine in some ways - the doctor knows a lot, but YOU are ultimately responsible for much of your health. I guess that is the Buyer Beware part.
Our local inspector was pretty good when I framed by recent shop project. He noticed that the framers were a few nails short in a critical place - where the rafters and ceiling joists meet on the outside wall plate. Not that the house would have fell in, but I suppose if I was in a hurricane or tornado zone....or if the roof was low slope and had snow/ice, it could have caused problems.
One reason that I think codes are so strict is that people often go only part way to following them. Luckily, the extra margin of safety often protects their life and property.
To put this stuff in the real world, when I lived in TN. we had a neighbor die from using a power saw on a wet day - outside his garage. No GFI, of course.
I've said before on several occasions, I have no real problems with the codes themselves - they could be more intelligibly written, and one can argue about whether they are to strict / not strict enough in various places, and things like that, but overall they are OK.
As Elk and I have gone round a few times on, and I don't feel the need to repeat, I don't like the notion of the gov't playing "mother may I" on permission to do things, and FORCING inspections and such on people (and we won't get into the tax issue...)
OTOH, I have ZERO problem with the idea of privately done, voluntary inspections, or inspections required as a condition of getting insurance / mortgages, etc. It seems quite reasonable to me that those with a legitimate interest in protecting their interests in a transaction would want to make sure the job is done properly.
In the private sector, most mfgr's have a "QA" department, and if the QA department screws up and lets junk pass then there are major consequences for the QA inspectors involved. My last job it was sort of a joke about the QA guys were the only ones in the place that got PAID for being "anal"... The bottom line was that the QA guy would never get in trouble for flagging stuff, and would if he missed things, so he went over everything with a fine toothed comb.
In the private home inspection business as well, there are consequences for the inspector that misses problems, typically there are financial penalties for missing things that should have been noted.
Quite aside from the gov't force issue, one of my problems with the gov't "QA" inspection is that the neither the inspector nor his bosses have any direct liability for things missed, thus there is no incentive beyond personal integrity to do a good job, and arguably a certain amount of incentive to play along with the "good old boy" network, or accept compensation for "bad vision", or even just not bother to work all that hard... On the other side, since the inspection is forced, the temptation is to do as little as possible to "get by" it.
If the gov't QA people had some sort of "motivator" to ensure that their sign-off meant that a REAL QA inspection was done, every time, I'd have fewer questions about it's value, though I'd still have issues with it being forced.
Gooserider
As Elk and I have gone round a few times on, and I don't feel the need to repeat, I don't like the notion of the gov't playing "mother may I" on permission to do things, and FORCING inspections and such on people (and we won't get into the tax issue...)
OTOH, I have ZERO problem with the idea of privately done, voluntary inspections, or inspections required as a condition of getting insurance / mortgages, etc. It seems quite reasonable to me that those with a legitimate interest in protecting their interests in a transaction would want to make sure the job is done properly.
In the private sector, most mfgr's have a "QA" department, and if the QA department screws up and lets junk pass then there are major consequences for the QA inspectors involved. My last job it was sort of a joke about the QA guys were the only ones in the place that got PAID for being "anal"... The bottom line was that the QA guy would never get in trouble for flagging stuff, and would if he missed things, so he went over everything with a fine toothed comb.
In the private home inspection business as well, there are consequences for the inspector that misses problems, typically there are financial penalties for missing things that should have been noted.
Quite aside from the gov't force issue, one of my problems with the gov't "QA" inspection is that the neither the inspector nor his bosses have any direct liability for things missed, thus there is no incentive beyond personal integrity to do a good job, and arguably a certain amount of incentive to play along with the "good old boy" network, or accept compensation for "bad vision", or even just not bother to work all that hard... On the other side, since the inspection is forced, the temptation is to do as little as possible to "get by" it.
If the gov't QA people had some sort of "motivator" to ensure that their sign-off meant that a REAL QA inspection was done, every time, I'd have fewer questions about it's value, though I'd still have issues with it being forced.
Gooserider
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