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Battery news

Post in 'The Green Room' started by begreen, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  2. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    GO U of I.

    10 times smaller yet 10 times more powerful? Can you imagine what this kind of tech will bring to the storage issues of renewables?
  3. Ehouse

    Ehouse Minister of Fire

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    And Choo Choos!
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Big time. It will be fun looking back on the electric car and electric plane doomsayers in 10 years if this all pans out!

    Wired mag once reported on battery technology which was a liquid. Imagine planes and cars being fueled with that....
  5. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    They have discovered/demonstrated a very intriguing thing. That's what research universities (and others) do. When they're pretty sure they're really onto something, they present it to the public (really the target audience is the research/tech community). This particular "thing" is essentially embryonic and there's no guarantee whatever that it will successfully grow and mature. It might be a landmark revolutionary development, or it might be a cool idea that just couldn't be upscaled into commercial production. WAY too early to say at this point. I like it, though...I like all this kind of stuff. Rick
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Rick, he says it's in the next stage and could be commercial in 1-2 years! Of course, that could be BS too.

    But this is the same university that Netscape (Mosaic) came out of.......

    Whether this advancement or another, sooner or later we'll get there. Energy is unlimited...or at least the amount we need. Maybe when we build the time machines we'll need a couple trillion watts, though...
  7. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    Read the linked article...down through the paragraph headed "Safety Fear". Leads me to believe it's a long way from market. But, what do I know? :rolleyes:
  8. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I ain't gonna fly in one powered by it yet - but I think my drones are gonna fly further and faster soon, and if they catch on fire...well, par for the course!
    (LiPo batteries used now do that sometimes when handled wrong!).
  9. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The precision required to avoid internal shorting at a nano level is daunting, but it sounds like a polymer electrolyte might mitigate this concern if successful. One thing for sure is that battery technology is on the move, big time.
  10. Ehouse

    Ehouse Minister of Fire

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    I'm afraid this will be suppressed.
  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Nah, the market is too large. If we don't develop it another country will. Toyota has already hinted at some big things down the road so to speak.
  12. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Some questionable claims there. THey say the battery could either be 10 time smaller or 10 times more powerful,and equate that to jump starting your car with your cellphone. Your car batter is easily 1000 time larger than your cell phone battery far cry from 10 times. I remain optimistic but skeptical.
  13. pdf27

    pdf27 Member

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    Thing is, car batteries are built very big simply to get a large current out of them - precisely what this research is about. Add in the pre-existing chemistry differences between cellphone and car batteries and you're getting close.
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/lithium-batteries---not-just-for-hybrids suggests that you're looking at ~13lbs for a current-technology lithium car starter battery. Furthermore, he's specifically saying that you could jumpstart a car with the cellphone battery, not that it could replace a car battery entirely. A quick look around suggests that around 100 amps is actually required - the 7-800 amp capacities provided by most batteries are insurance for cold starting with a partially charged battery. 75 times smaller than a 13lb battery is ~1/6lb - while most smartphones are ~1/4lb. It is hyperbole (the mind boggles at the thought of trying to attach jump leads to an iPhone!), but the maths actually seems to stack up reasonably well for his claim. I think a 2lb car battery using this technology is eminently plausible, which would save ~30lb, or 1% of the weight of a car and hence reduce fuel burn by getting on for 1%...
  14. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    I cant count the number of articles like this that iv read but never heard from again. Usually they fall short in one of the main areas of service. Capacity, longevity ,charge time,weight, number of charges capability and the BIG ONE COST of production.
  15. pdf27

    pdf27 Member

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    Interestingly the longevity/charge time/number of charges all seem to be improved by this sort of work - the optimum microstructure for one appears to be the optimum for the others too. Weight/capacity has long since been basically fixed, or at least on a practical level - a 300 mile range isn't unusual in an internal combustion engined car, and a handful of battery cars can do that right now (with the limiting factor being the cost of the battery, not weight/space for it).

    That leaves production cost, and two things should be noted here:
    1) This work is at a very early stage, and is a completely new way of building a battery. 5-10 years it wouldn't even have been possible to do this on a lab scale. That means developing whole new manufacturing processes, which is going to take time. This isn't the first paper to find this - there was one from IIRC MIT a couple of years ago - but from what I understand this is on a bigger scale using a more production-appropriate method. Probably 10 years of work to do yet before it's industrially practical though...
    2) Battery cars themselves aren't in proper mass production yet, so prices are artificially high. That is rapidly coming down - the Nissan Leaf is roughly 75% of the price of the Th!nk City, despite being a much bigger, better car - being built in a proper car factory, albeit in small numbers, makes a huge difference there. Build them the same way and the Leaf should be about twice the price. Build it in proper mass production and you're looking at about $15,000 or so before tax incentives to make a profit.
  16. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Add durability and safety for tests that any new car battery is going to have to pass.
  17. pdf27

    pdf27 Member

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    Yep. Which can't practically be done in the lab, but it's rare that the underlying physics will affect these. Rather, they're an engineering problem which will be solved as they get closer to production.

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