RandyBoBandy
Minister of Fire
Your encore doesn’t have a plug in the back that you can remove and install a probe thermometer?
Can I get the catalytic in an Encore to work with just a small fire?
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
At this age what else are you going to spend your money on?
Expensive booze and cheap women.
Along with liver transplants and antibiotics.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I guess Oscar did die before Felix... but only by a few months!
What you've told us so far is that running the stove on low sometimes causes the cat to stall and then puffback. The remedy for this may be as simple as giving the fire a bit more air. Have you done partial loadings to see how the stove does? If it continues to be cranky at a low setting or with partial loading then change out the stove. At this age what else are you going to spend your money on?
I've been doing various things to experiment. The puffback is a nuisance but the BIG thing is my concern with creosote. Let me back up a bit.
The wonderful woman I married was married before, and the old stove I've referred to above was that husband's thing, and they lived in an older house. He had started with a Defiant, precursor to the Defiant Encore. When he got the Encore, he rebuilt the chimney [himself] and was into the rather new catalytic thing at that time. After he left and I came on the scene, I married the wife, the house and the stove. I had to figure out the catalytic [I didnt have the manual] and apparently I didnt get good enough at it, because I had a very scary chimney fire after a while. I think the main thing was that my wood was not the crackin' dry wood I have now - I cut in the winter, split in the spring, and brought it to the shed in late fall. Not really enough to be good and dry.
It was frustrating not knowing for sure if the catalytic was really firing. I didnt have a forum like this to go to, and just guessed and hoped. Then after finding I had to replace the catalytic every few years, I got annoyed with it and gave up and took the cat out and figured that small bright fires would be cleaner than the mess I was making. I was right about that, the flue was clean and dry ever after. I knew I was also sending energy up the chimney, but I accepted the trade.
When we built the new house I brought the stove over but only to use it for power outages. That was when oil was 69 cents, and I was content not to cut all that wood. When oil spiked I went back to wood - and the "bone warming heat" - and back to burning small and bright. I did use the damper, but just to keep the burn rate down when I needed a little bigger load of wood in the cold. By then the warpage of the fireback had begun and it didnt make a complete seal. I still felt confident that creosote was not a problem, and for years now I have had none by burning that way
Now this lovely new stove comes my way and if I want to use the damper it WILL be a tight seal. AND the catalytic element is still in it. Evidently it works still, even though it is highly likely that it is the original for this stove, and may not be in great shape. So by damping I will REALLY slow down the burn, and if the cat does not really work well, that will make it a creosote factco. GOSH I wish I could directly see the catalytic action inside, and that I could see the creosote [or not] without getting up on the roof.
So that's why I have been poking around with my questions, and I DO appreciate, greatly, what I have picked up here.
Still, I am experimenting for sure. Tonight will be the first really cold night since installing, and I will be letting it try a bigger load for the first time. So far 3 logs has been my limit, about 1/3 filling the firebox.
I was able to borrow a digital IR thermometer, by the way, from a friend down the road. I can see the griddle at 650 or more, and the shoulders of the catalytic chamber in back, up to 550 and more. So I am a bit nervous with bigger loads, lest it get much hotter than that. That's where I want to know that the cat IS working so I dont get creosote, and that the incoming air control will keep it from overfiring too much.
Sigh ... you'd think it shouldn't have to be this complicated and uncertain. But hopefully I WILL learn the way this thing wants to run, and all will be well.
Thanks again to all of you.
Do you have a thermometer made for stove top temperature reading? If not buy one and place it in the middle of the griddle. That way you can at least know when to engage the cat according to the manual's instructions. 3 logs may be enough on a reload to get the stove top back up to 450F which is hot enough to engage the cat. On a cold start it may take more wood to reach this temperature.
http://www.condar.com/Stovetop_Thermometers.html
http://www.condar.com/Stovetop_Thermometers.html
One of the frustrations of this has been getting temps. The "old" stove had a bimetal stovetop thermometer, said "Vermont Castings" right on it. After moving it repeatedly from griddle to cat shoulder (I dont know what else to call that spot on the back where it slopes down, the only sloping area on the stove] I got tired of waiting for it to settle on a temp, so I wanted 2 so they could stay put. I got a Rutland thermometer from Home Depot and it consistently read very close to 70% of the VC thermometer, all up and down the range of temps. Put them next to each other and they would read at that offset every time. So that's when I asked around for an IR and by golly a friend of mine had one. And that reads consistently right in the middle between the VC and the Rutland. The IR is a Rosewill RTMT 11001, no idea if it's high or low quality. Anyway I've been using the IR. Temp does seem to be my only guidance. "Close the damper at 450". Well, one reads 510, one reads 420, one reads 350.
And I'm interested that all day today, it has been easier and easier to get the cat to kick in after adding a stick or two. The last time I did, about half hour ago, it seemed like it never even stopped firing. Dropped them in, closed the damper, went outside and there was almost no smoke right away. So there is something there as to having the whole thing inside being up to heat.
Speaking of my experiments, I've done a lot of running out to look at the smoke and coming back in and setting the air higher or lower and running back out.
So a BIQ question I have is -- should I expect that when the cat is running nice and hot there should be NO visible smoke? There have been times that I see nothing at all except the wiggly stream of heat visible against the sky. BUT it's not been consistent. I have seen a number of instances where the temps are high - up to 700 on the stovetop behind the griddle, and 550 or more on the cat shoulders, so SURELY the cat is cranking, but outside there is definitely visible smoke. Not tons, but nothing like none. Nice and light gray to almost white, but clearly visible smoke, twirling in billows. I thought it should be really clear in those conditions.
At least if the smoke is that white, it wont have much if any creosote, right?
I know I'm putting out a lot of words in this thread. I appreciate everyone's continued willingness, a lot!
I think they have a nutrutional "app for that," for the liver anyway..
He might crack down, depending on what kind of mood he's in. And he rides herd on posters that may be in a bad mood, of which I've been guilty on occassion.BTW - begreen, you're a ... mooderator??? What's a mooderator?
You probably will find in the manual that you are supposed to open the bypass a few minutes before you open the door to load, then burn in the new load a bit to get rid of some moisture before closing the bypass again. You do this to avoid "thermal shock" to the cat, which can cause it to crack and crumble. With your dry wood, this could be less of an issue. But I'm not even sure what kind of re-burn system of cat your stove has.
Yes, you should get no smoke when the cat is working correctly. As you've found, it's all about getting the stove up to temp before closing the bypass. This takes longer, the more the stove has cooled off at the end of the load.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
BTW - begreen, you're a ... mooderator??? What's a mooderator?
He's in charge of making sure we don't try to discuss booze and cheap women instead of stoves.
He also rehomes lost posts, enforces thread size limits, tells people not to get into flame wars with bholler, and dispenses sage stove advice (I suspect he has a keyboard macro for "Which Stove Should I Get", "Help My Stove Is Smoking", and "Why Are My Burns So Short").
Not sure about the extra O; I suspect a cownspiracy there, though it could just be a cowincidence.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
RandyBoBandy
Minister of Fire
In your original post you state you have a 1992 encore. Can I assume this is the year? What is the model? Should be a tag on the back of the stove. Also look in the middle of the stove back. Above the secondary air supply there should be a plug or bolt. This would be where your cat probe would go. I would post a picture of mine but I have the rear heat shield on.
I think they have a nutrutional "app for that," for the liver anyway..
You probably will find in the manual that you are supposed to open the bypass a few minutes before you open the door to load, then burn in the new load a bit to get rid of some moisture before closing the bypass again. You do this to avoid "thermal shock" to the cat, which can cause it to crack and crumble. With your dry wood, this could be less of an issue. But I'm not even sure what kind of re-burn system of cat your stove has.
Yes, you should get no smoke when the cat is working correctly. As you've found, it's all about getting the stove up to temp before closing the bypass. This takes longer, the more the stove has cooled off at the end of the load.
I do have the manual now, and there is nothing about opening the damper a while fefore loading. They do say it's best if you reload when there is a good bed of coals so the catch up to heat goes quickly.
as for kind of reburn system is this what you mean? There is a slot in the fireback where gases go into the chamber. The cat itself you can only see the wall of. Gases go up over the wall of the cat [and out of your sight] then down through the honeycomb and they turn to flame there under the cat. Always seemed odd to me to go downwards with a flame. Maybe some jock here knows why.
Yes bought in 1992. It's a 0028/2140. Somehow both numbers mean the same stove. A 0028 is a 2140.
On the fireback the casting has "1986" which I think is the year they modified some things and came out with the new "model". All very confusing.
I also have a shield. I will take it off next time it's warm outside.
Well, I did the big experiment and it's disconcerting. I put in 4 logs this time, each one about as big as you could get your two hands around. Put your hands together, thumb to thumb and middle finger to middle finger, make a circle and that's about the size. They were splits, not rounds, but that's the size. All 4 together loaded the firebox just about halfway up. I had only done up to 3 before.
So, being very dry, and with a good bed of coals, they went to flame right away and I closed the damper since the temp was already over 500. The temp in back quickly rose so I am sure the cat got started soon. So it wasnt long till I eased the primary air down
What unnerves me is that the stovetop temp went up over 700 within maybe 20 minutes, got up to 740 soon after and stayed there - 720 to 740 for over an hour, even when I shut the air entirely.
And there was never any backpuffing, there was a steady amount of small flame rising over the load in a number of places. It never came close to going flameless.
So I understood that getting up to 700 is overfiring territory. I certainly dont see loading it up full so it burns for 8 hours, which is something I used to hear - "You can load it up, and let the cat burn the gases, it will hold a fire for 8 hours". I fully expect it would run the temp even higher.
I do begin to wonder if the stove is not really airtight any more. That could feed a bigger fire. But I would think if that's the issue then why would I ever have backpuffing at all? Even a small fire should then have air getting in and I shouldn't have seen it flameless.
One more question please? The primary air handle goes from about a 4 o'clock position to about an 8:30 position, and I expected the incoming port at the bottom in the back would be closed when you swing it all the way back. But no, it goes completely closed at 6 o'clock, straight down. Do they come that way or has the cable or whatever pulls it maybe stretched over time? Is it something I can adjust? There is a screw on the thingie that closes. Does it hold the end of the cable and can I fix it? Does it need to be fixed?
So, being very dry, and with a good bed of coals, they went to flame right away and I closed the damper since the temp was already over 500. The temp in back quickly rose so I am sure the cat got started soon. So it wasnt long till I eased the primary air down
What unnerves me is that the stovetop temp went up over 700 within maybe 20 minutes, got up to 740 soon after and stayed there - 720 to 740 for over an hour, even when I shut the air entirely.
And there was never any backpuffing, there was a steady amount of small flame rising over the load in a number of places. It never came close to going flameless.
So I understood that getting up to 700 is overfiring territory. I certainly dont see loading it up full so it burns for 8 hours, which is something I used to hear - "You can load it up, and let the cat burn the gases, it will hold a fire for 8 hours". I fully expect it would run the temp even higher.
I do begin to wonder if the stove is not really airtight any more. That could feed a bigger fire. But I would think if that's the issue then why would I ever have backpuffing at all? Even a small fire should then have air getting in and I shouldn't have seen it flameless.
One more question please? The primary air handle goes from about a 4 o'clock position to about an 8:30 position, and I expected the incoming port at the bottom in the back would be closed when you swing it all the way back. But no, it goes completely closed at 6 o'clock, straight down. Do they come that way or has the cable or whatever pulls it maybe stretched over time? Is it something I can adjust? There is a screw on the thingie that closes. Does it hold the end of the cable and can I fix it? Does it need to be fixed?
RandyBoBandy
Minister of Fire
If it hasn’t been done in awhile I would probably go ahead and replace the ash pan gasket, door gaskets, glass gaskets, and griddle gasket. 700 degrees is ok but if you are fully closing the primary you should be able to get that temp to drop.
The hole for the cat probe is between the secondary air cover and the cat access cover. I recently got a probe and an Auber AT100 thermometer to monitor my new cat, and found out that with my leaky old Encore, it was almost impossible to keep the cat below 1600 unless I put a very small load of wood in the stove. After replacing door, ash door and glass gaskets as well as cat cover and flue collar gaskets, I have it more under control. Here's a picture of the cat probe location. You probably have a small domed metal plug covering the hole.
Yes, there is indeed a shiny little plug there!
So do I see in your photo that the stem of the probe is in there and there is a ... cable or wire or something trailing down from it? I ask because I looked for cat probes online and they all have stems directly connected to the dial
So I was wondering how to install one of those without removing the rear heat shield. I guess I could drill a hole in the shield and insert through it but if there is a version of the probe with a lead to a readout somewhere else that would be good. I dont like the idea of bending down over the back of the stove to read temps. My stove is only about one foot from the chimney [one single oval to round section of pipe]. It would be nice to mount a dial somewhere easy to look at.
And I looked in the Encore manual for the thing about 700 degrees being overfiring. I guess that's not where I was seeing it [other than on the dial of the stovetop thermometer - at 600 it says "OVERFIRE"]
But in the manual all I find is -- if you see any part of the stove or the chimney connector glowing red, that's too hot, dial it back.
The stove starting to glow??
I presume that 700 degrees is a long way from that!
So is 700 OK? The highest I saw yesterday was almost 750. What really is the level where you better back off?
But in the manual all I find is -- if you see any part of the stove or the chimney connector glowing red, that's too hot, dial it back.
The stove starting to glow??
I presume that 700 degrees is a long way from that!So is 700 OK? The highest I saw yesterday was almost 750. What really is the level where you better back off?
The ranges on the Rutland are somewhat arbitrary guides. Our stove cruises around 650-700 frequently.
Where are you reading the temperatures? What part of the stove was glowing red? That's too hot.
Where are you reading the temperatures? What part of the stove was glowing red? That's too hot.
My stove was not glowing. the VC manual warned that a glowing stove meant it was too hot.
I am reading with an IR thermometer at the back of the griddle, about an inch from the back. I have the Rutland in the middle so I read at the back with the IR. It does get hotter back there. But I have also noticed in all my observations, that the hottest spot is where the most flame is licking up against the underside of the griddle [doh ...]. At times when the flame is more on one side, that side is hotter [doh x 2 ...] All across the griddle I see a lot of variation so "griddle temp" is a wiggly idea.
Thats why I have been interested in the cat probe idea. I figure that will tell me for sure what it is doing. I would then only want to know stove temp for avoiding overfiring.
So 700 or even 750 is no big deal, right?
Follow the manual's temperature recommendations.
Digital catalytic probe
http://www.condar.com/watchman.html
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