Cat or Secondary

[Seasoned Oak]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

I want them both in one stove, are they on the market??

There should be one on the market soon. Best guess has been perhaps March. It will be another great Woodstock stove.

Having never owned a cat stove but hearing your description i have come to one conclusion,they(both cat and DD) are both great stoves.

 

[grommal]

Not sure why replacing the cat after a few years is a big deal when I read posts here every winter about someone replacing baffles and burn tubes on the non cat, doesnt that about equal out?

The frequency of replacement of baffles and tubes will greatly depend on the exact design and materials of construction used on a particular stove, and how careful the operator is.

Some thin tubes will fail after a few years, while others with heavier tubes will last many years. Cast iron baffles can warp, but ceramic baffles won't. Some ceramic baffles are more fragile than others and fail if abused during stove loading. So, with the right stove and the right operation, these parts can last a long, long time.

Cat combustors will need to be replaced after a handful of years. And some cat stoves (like the one I had) also need to have other refractory pieces replaced as they deteriorate around the combustor.

 

[roddy]

gotta love the bk burn times(hyped or real) but if youre like me and look and asthetics of a stove are important...some cat stoves are kinda dog poop on a stick pretty(the bk,s and vc,s atleast) its part of the decor in my house ,steel boxes aint pretty (to my wife at least)

 

[oldspark]

gotta love the bk burn times(hyped or real) but if youre like me and look and asthetics of a stove are important...some cat stoves are kinda dog poop on a stick pretty(the bk,s and vc,s atleast) its part of the decor in my house ,steel boxes aint pretty (to my wife at least)

Dog poop on a stick is what I have for decor.

 

[roddy]

oldspark...that sumit is definately not dog poop(specially the red one)

 

[Renovation]

Dog poop on a stick is what I have for decor.

lol, good man! Mine is "ripped to shreds but everything you can't see is fixed".

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

Jotul owner here, I vote secondary non CAT all the way. Jakes comments are exactly what I was thinking, we have the same stove...

 

[Todd]

You guys are all getting soft! In the old days we would bash each other hard in these cat vs non-cat threads. :lol:

I'll just say, I've burned them both and found I like the cat better for the longer burns and less firewood burned, probably save close to a cord per year with the cat stove verses the previous non cats I've burned. If you have a smallish house and looking for long burns but don't want to oversize the stove to obtain those long burns, a cat stove will fit the bill.

As far as the flame show goes, both my cat stoves have great looking fires and they last longer than any Non cat I've burned before and they also don't look like a gas grill tube fire.

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

As far as the flame show goes, both my cat stoves have great looking fires and they last longer than any Non cat I've burned before and they also don't look like a gas grill tube fire.[/quote]

A bias Cat user? I like my gas grill tube fire...

 

[Seasoned Oak]

You guys are all getting soft! In the old days we would bash each other hard in these cat vs non-cat threads. :lol:

I'll just say, I've burned them both and found I like the cat better for the longer burns and less firewood burned, probably save close to a cord per year with the cat stove verses the previous non cats I've burned. If you have a smallish house and looking for long burns but don't want to oversize the stove to obtain those long burns, a cat stove will fit the bill.

As far as the flame show goes, both my cat stoves have great looking fires and they last longer than any Non cat I've burned before and they also don't look like a gas grill tube fire.

My stove dont have the gas grill tubes ,it has the firedome ceramic chamber at the back bottom of the stove and if the wood stacked just is right( i stack it this way on purpose) you can see inside the burn chamber. Even if the primary air is all the way down and the wood looks like its not burning,in that chamber its like watching a volcano white hot,the ceramic cherry red burning the wood gas at temps well above 1200F . If you crank up some primary air then the fire show begins in front of the wood ,looks like the northern lights,very mesmerizing. Never owned a cat stove ,but this harman goes a long way on a small pile of wood.

 

[84td]

I have another valid question.

What is the top efficiency time of both styles?

Based on my research, it seems like the cat stove is running at advertised efficiency after 20 to 30 min, staying that way the entire burn, and the Secondary burn only does its secondary burn thing when its peaking in the burn so it may take a bit to kick off and towards the end of the burn cycle the efficiency may dip way down.

Does that sound right?

 

[oldspark]

oldspark...that sumit is definately not dog poop(specially the red one)

I ment the rest of the house (long story), the summit is the nicest thing in the place.

 

[Green Energy]

I have had both -

I like the CAT for 24-7 burns, especially big firebox CATs - but my old one always had fogged up glass after a night of low burn, CAT operations/maintenance is not a big deal for me - did not find this to be a downside

I love the non-CAT for the light shows - that's what I have now and I am learning to deal with overnight and 10 hours at work - I can usually count on 8 hours not needing kindling, but 12 hours - have not achieved that yet.

I have no plans to buy a stove anytime soon. But I would consider both, or the hybrid, the next time around. I have no regrets with my non-CAT.

 

[Sierra Guy]

I had a catalytic Defiant Encore for 14 years and really liked the stove but didn't like replacing the converter every 3 or 4 years. However, I haven't had enough experience with our new stove yet to compare maintenance of cat stoves with not-cat stoves. One other note, my converters deteriorated noticeably with time although they burned super clean in the beginning. I'm hoping the "overall" efficiency of the new stove will be better. Also, I'm sure the new cats are much improved over the one I had.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I have another valid question.

What is the top efficiency time of both styles?

Based on my research, it seems like the cat stove is running at advertised efficiency after 20 to 30 min, staying that way the entire burn, and the Secondary burn only does its secondary burn thing when its peaking in the burn so it may take a bit to kick off and towards the end of the burn cycle the efficiency may dip way down.

Does that sound right?

Thats a valid question. SO valid its addressed in the brochure for the harman downdraft woodstoves.
According to Harman both the cat and their Secondary burn stove the Harman TL-300 have similar burn cycles,no peaking and dropping as with a non EPA stove

 

[ddddddden]

84td, it sounds like you are doing your reading, but I'll endeavor to give you the executive summary. IMO, a cat stove is better for the coastal Va climate, where 45deg days are not uncommon in deepest winter. Why? Because you can turn it down. Non-cat stoves have a minimum air intake required by EPA because they can't burn cleanly if "choked down". How does a non-cat operator turn it down? He/she checks the forecast and puts a small load of fuel in the stove if it's going to be warmish out, then reloads when the house cools off. With a cat stove, you can fill 'er up and choke 'er down for a long smolder, and the cat will burn the smoke all day long, hence the longer burn times, efficiency arguments aside.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

84td, it sounds like you are doing your reading, but I'll endeavor to give you the executive summary. IMO, a cat stove is better for the coastal Va climate, where 45deg days are not uncommon in deepest winter. Why? Because you can turn it down. Non-cat stoves have a minimum air intake required by EPA because they can't burn cleanly if "choked down". How does a non-cat operator turn it down? He/she checks the forecast and puts a small load of fuel in the stove if it's going to be warmish out, then reloads when the house cools off. With a cat stove, you can fill 'er up and choke 'er down for a long smolder, and the cat will burn the smoke all day long, hence the longer burn times, efficiency arguments aside.

Probably depends on the stove. My stove(non-cat Down draft) can be Choked down all the way. efficiency of the after burn is not affected as secondary air intake is not regulated and is constant and is not connected to the primary air setting in any way. I can load er up and cut the primary air down all the way and still have a healthy after burn. I estimate my stove puts out about 10000 BTUs at the lowest setting(Best guess) and is rated at 75000 at the highest. Have already used the stove at 55 Deg outdoor temp just to take the chill out and had no problems with overheat or secondary burn. I use my stove the same way whether its 5 deg out or 55, just regulate it with the primary burn air setting. Im Not knocking cat stoves but Non cats can do the job well also.IMO Typical overnight reload time is 15 hours so not bad for the burn time either. Never had a cat stove but good wood stoves are like
fast cars , fine wine and(fill in the blank) nice to test drive something new for a while.

 

[North of 60]

If you crank up some primary air then the fire show begins in front of the wood ,looks like the northern lights,very mesmerizing. Never owned a cat stove ,but this harman goes a long way on a small pile of wood.

Ahhhh, Ya see thats maybe why I have a CAT in the basement.
I look out my window upstairs and get my northern lights right there. ;-)

 

[corey21]

If you crank up some primary air then the fire show begins in front of the wood ,looks like the northern lights,very mesmerizing. Never owned a cat stove ,but this harman goes a long way on a small pile of wood.

Ahhhh, Ya see thats maybe why I have a CAT in the basement.
I look out my window upstairs and get my northern lights right there. ;-)

Sweet.

 

[leeave96]

You guys are all getting soft! In the old days we would bash each other hard in these cat vs non-cat threads. :lol:

I'll just say, I've burned them both and found I like the cat better for the longer burns and less firewood burned, probably save close to a cord per year with the cat stove verses the previous non cats I've burned. If you have a smallish house and looking for long burns but don't want to oversize the stove to obtain those long burns, a cat stove will fit the bill.

As far as the flame show goes, both my cat stoves have great looking fires and they last longer than any Non cat I've burned before and they also don't look like a gas grill tube fire.

+1

I think both cat and non-cat epa stoves are clean burning. The difference for me in my small house is - like tonight, I need to turn the stove down (else we are going to have to open some windows) and I'd like a few coals on the morning to get the fire re-kindled and I want a clean burn through it all. This is the advantage of the cat.

My Woodstock Keystone has a the ability to reduce the fire to a glowing cat at the top and glowing embers under the splits on the stove bottom - not exactly a view to write home about, but on the other hand, I can open the damper a bit and have a beautiful fire rolling off the logs - yet still go outside, have a look-see at the chimney and no smoke! Amazing!

Cat or non-cat, I think you have a winner either way. I am impressed with the woodstove selection these days compared to years ago when smoke dragons were king.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[atvdave]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

You will never get a correct answer.... I have a secondary insert and love it. My brother has a CAT insert and loves it.. Either way... You won't lose.

 

[Green Energy]

Ahhhh, Ya see thats maybe why I have a CAT in the basement.
I look out my window upstairs and get my northern lights right there. ;-)

Your pictures makes me want to visit Canada or Alaska in the winter

 

[Green Energy]

... I like the cat better for the longer burns and less firewood burned, probably save close to a cord per year with the cat stove verses the previous non cats I've burned. If you have a smallish house and looking for long burns but don't want to oversize the stove to obtain those long burns, a cat stove will fit the bill.

As far as the flame show goes, both my cat stoves have great looking fires and they last longer than any Non cat I've burned before and they also don't look like a gas grill tube fire.

Todd, There are a lot of merits with the CATs as you have mentioned. I would definitely consider another one. But I am getting used to the non CAT. One advantage that I am experiencing (compared to my old CAT) is that I find it easier and quicker to start a fire and get it up to temp with my new stove. This means I am more likely to let my stove go out when it is marginal and I don't really need it (such as during the day when everyone is out for 8-10 hours and OA temps are close or into the 40s). With my old stove, I did not like having to start it from cold as it took 45 minutes to get it up to cruising temp. This cause me to keep it going rather than let the fire die, unless I thought I would not be burning for at least two or three days. So I think my new stove compared to my old stove will result in me burning less wood with my new non CAT stove.

I realize that people's mileage may vary as the new CAT stoves may be easier to start than my old DW FA455. Also, I am more knowledgeable, my wood is drier, I have a chimney liner - So it may be that I would operating a new CAT stove more like my new non-Cat stove. But I do love the light show and it's not like my propane bbq, but not as good as the real Northern Lights up in Canada. So no regrets with the non Cat stove here.

 

[HotCoals]

That's one nice thing about the cat BK stove.
When the by-pass is open it works just like my old non cat BK...lights up easy from a cold start.
Straight shot from the box to the chimney.

 

[North of 60]

Ahhhh, Ya see thats maybe why I have a CAT in the basement.
I look out my window upstairs and get my northern lights right there. ;-)

Your pictures makes me want to visit Canada or Alaska in the winter

You are welcome anytime.