Cat Stove Classroom

[soupy1957]

Because the topical thread about Cat Stoves got to five pages in length, and because the topic of "to buy a Cat or not" is a big one in here; I figured I'd open yet another Thread for the sake of folks like me who really would like to get the facts out on the table AGAIN........

Please don't link this to "here's a Thread on the topic".........allow us to rehash this again please.

Here's a list to start from:

A) DO you have to replace your Catolytic whatchamacallit?
B) Why do we even NEED one; Just to burn less wood?
C) If so, how often do you have to replace it?
D) What does it cost to replace?
E) Can you replace it yourself or is it better done by a Pro?
F) How many seasons are you getting out of a Cat before replacement?
G) Whether you replace the Cat or not, what can you tell me about the
cleaning process?
H) Are these Cat stoves slow to heat up or not?
I) What are the main differences in how you tend a Cat stove fire, -vs-
a non-Cat stove fire?
J) Is there typically less room in a Cat stove for the wood?
K) Where does the Cat itself live, in the system?
L) Is there more/less soot & ash residual in the flue of a Cat stove? Why?
M) How much higher (assumption on my part) is the cost of a Cat stove, -vs- a non-Cat?


If you are a Cat owner, I'd appreciate some experienced responses and not guess work (non Cat owners) based on rumor.

Our stove at home is barely broken in, so I figure we'll not need another stove for perhaps 20 years, but.......that said......knowing that the technology will most likely be on a whole other level by then......I'd like to settle this in my head, once and for all.

(Interesting article on the subject: http://www.dimesoft.com/cat.htm)


-Soupy1957

 

[BrowningBAR]

A) DO you have to replace your Catolytic whatchamacallit?
When appropriate, yes.

B) Why do we even NEED one; Just to burn less wood?
Temperature control. I like the ability to burn at lower temps when needed as oppose to burning at 600 degrees. For some, this is not a concern or a need. Also, Cat stoves, based on manufacturing stats are more efficient.

C) If so, how often do you have to replace it?
Varies greatly. The Intrepid I bought used had a working cat that was obviously used. I used that same cat for two years and it looks no different. I would use it again this year if that stove was still installed.

D) What does it cost to replace?
Varies as well. From $100-$240 depending upon make and model.

E) Can you replace it yourself or is it better done by a Pro?
Replacing/changing/cleaning a cat is simple. Some models (older Encores) require more work getting to the cat. But it is just elbow grease and not a technical difficulty.

F) How many seasons are you getting out of a Cat before replacement?
Caries as well. Some reported a dead cat after one season. Others get 5+ years from a cat. Poor wood quality can shorten the life span of a cat.

G) Whether you replace the Cat or not, what can you tell me about the
cleaning process?
Open panel/lid. Pick up cat. Vacuum. Replace.

H) Are these Cat stoves slow to heat up or not?
A cat stove is no different than a non-cat stove. It is a box containing fire. The cat has no effect on the firebox.

I) What are the main differences in how you tend a Cat stove fire, -vs-
a non-Cat stove fire?
In comparing it to a Hearthstone? One additional lever that is engaged once the stove hits a certain temp.

J) Is there typically less room in a Cat stove for the wood?
No. It has nothing to do with the firebox. If the firebox has less room, it has to do with the stove design and nothing to do with the cat.

K) Where does the Cat itself live, in the system?
Varies. Sometimes above the firebox, sometimes behind.

L) Is there more/less soot & ash residual in the flue of a Cat stove? Why?
In theory, there should be as the cat is suppose to promote a more complete burn.

M) How much higher (assumption on my part) is the cost of a Cat stove, -vs- a non-Cat?
Varies depending upon the model and how long the cat lasts.

 

[Todd]

A) DO you have to replace your Catolytic whatchamacallit?
B) Why do we even NEED one; Just to burn less wood?
C) If so, how often do you have to replace it?
D) What does it cost to replace?
E) Can you replace it yourself or is it better done by a Pro?
F) How many seasons are you getting out of a Cat before replacement?
G) Whether you replace the Cat or not, what can you tell me about the
cleaning process?
H) Are these Cat stoves slow to heat up or not?
I) What are the main differences in how you tend a Cat stove fire, -vs-
a non-Cat stove fire?
J) Is there typically less room in a Cat stove for the wood?
K) Where does the Cat itself live, in the system?
L) Is there more/less soot & ash residual in the flue of a Cat stove? Why?
M) How much higher (assumption on my part) is the cost of a Cat stove, -vs- a non-Cat?
-Soupy1957

I'll try to answer some of your questions. I've been burning Woodstock stoves for 6 years now. The catalyst is located center top of the stove above the baffle. Just think of it in that empty space above your baffle and tubes in your stove. Replacing the cat is not a big deal in these stoves, the Fireview is probably the easiest, just lift the top lid and the cat is right there. The Keystone takes more time since you have to remove 4 screws from the back or top plate depending on how the stove is vented then you reach in and remove a small shield over the cat then slide the cat out, takes maybe 5-10 minutes and no, you don't need a pro, Woodstock made it simple and gives you great directions with pictures on their web site.

Maintenance is just a brushing or vacuuming once per month or about every cord of wood or so. I found with my Keystone it's just easier to use one of those low pressure air cans and stick it into the fire box, point it towards the cat and pull the trigger. This will blow any fly ash or plugging out. Usually there isn't much anyway if you burn dry wood.

Replacement can vary. I have replaced my Fireview cat several times, the first couple were because I noticed slight cracking and was worried it was going to fall apart since I was a rookie cat stove guy. I called Woodstock and talked it over, they said as long as there is no smoke out your chimney it is still working but they sent me another cat free of charge anyways so I just replaced it. Cats are under a 6 year warranty and I think the 1st couple years are free replacement and pro rated after that up to 6 years. Woodstock sells replacements for $125. The new steel cats look to be an improvement over the ceramic ones and they claim they should last much longer since they aren't subject to thermo shock or potassium poisoning. Time will tell but I think steel is the way to go.

As far as operation goes my stoves are soapstone so yes they do take a little longer to heat up than steel but it's not like 2-3 hours, I reach 500 stove top in about 1 hour on average from a cold start. Once burning 24/7 the stove is always hot so it's not an issue. Cat stove fire boxes can be loaded right up to the baffle and you don't have to worry about leaving an inch or two for the secondary combustion like a tube stove. The looks of the fire can vary as well, sometimes you get ghostly secondary bursts between the wood and baffle or you could have no flame at all and let the cat do all the work. It all depends on the amount of air you give it. During the colder months you need more air and more heat and there is plenty of good looking flames. I like the control of the cat stove over the non cat, less air control tinkering to find that sweet spot compared to the many non cat stoves I've operated in the past. I can either turn it down to a low slow 12 hr burn or when I need the heat turn it up and get a 4-8 hour burn. Pretty impressive for a small 1.5 cu ft fire box.

My chimney has been very clean with either type of stove, the difference I have seen since going cat is the cap, much cleaner now, it use to get a little crusty with my non cats.

Costs between the two, I know for sure Woodstock is much cheaper than their Hearthstone counter part but that is mostly due to being factory direct. With Blaze King it depends on which side of the Mississippi your on but they still seem to be a little more than a similar sized non cat but they also have that nice thermostat feature. My take is I wouldn't mind paying a few hundred more for a cat stove because it fits my needs for longer more efficient burns that saves me wood.

Would I buy a non cat some day? Sure, I'm always looking, I like that new Jotul top loader and also tempted by a couple Morso's.

 

[begreen]

Again?
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/21406/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/71599/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/70514/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/59583/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/39624/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/15192/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10649/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6070/

 

[BrowningBAR]

Again?
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/21406/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/71599/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/70514/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/59583/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/39624/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/15192/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10649/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6070/

Good lord. That poor horse...

 

[begreen]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

 

[BrowningBAR]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

Vermont Castings Defiant = 1.1 gms/hr
Blaze King King = 1.76gms/hr (which I thought was interesting)

 

[Danno77]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

That makes me feel a little better. What are the respective btu ratings and/or firebox sizes on those? Just want to mke sure we are comparing oranges to oranges and not tangerines to oranges...

 

[BrowningBAR]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

That makes me feel a little better. What are the respective btu ratings and/or firebox sizes on those? Just want to mke sure we are comparing oranges to oranges and not tangerines to oranges...

BTU ratings are more marketing fluff than anything. Firebox size would probably be a better comparison.

 

[Danno77]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

That makes me feel a little better. What are the respective btu ratings and/or firebox sizes on those? Just want to mke sure we are comparing oranges to oranges and not tangerines to oranges...

BTU ratings are more marketing fluff than anything. Firebox size would probably be a better comparison.

Agreed.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

That makes me feel a little better. What are the respective btu ratings and/or firebox sizes on those? Just want to mke sure we are comparing oranges to oranges and not tangerines to oranges...

BTU ratings are more marketing fluff than anything. Firebox size would probably be a better comparison.

Agreed.

Which means the Blaze King, Defiant, and Englander 30 are close in terms of fire box size. Not sure about the Buck 80. I think it's a large stove. Can't remember, though.

The Fireview has the smallest firebox.

 

[Todd]

Here's some more good info.

http://www.chc-hpba.org/chc_news.htm

 

[Todd]

Fireview cat = 1.3gms/hr
Buck 80 cat = 2.6gms/hr
Englander 30NC non-cat = 1.63 gms/hr

Vermont Castings Defiant = 1.1 gms/hr
Blaze King King = 1.76gms/hr (which I thought was interesting)

Those are averages between low and high burn rates. If you look up the gph for a low to med burn the cat is much cleaner but when you go up into the med to high burn rates the non cat burns cleaner.

 

[BrotherBart]

Oh look! A butterfly.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Okky dokky. We'll try once more.

Because the topical thread about Cat Stoves got to five pages in length, and because the topic of "to buy a Cat or not" is a big one in here; I figured I'd open yet another Thread for the sake of folks like me who really would like to get the facts out on the table AGAIN........

Please don't link this to "here's a Thread on the topic".........allow us to rehash this again please.

Here's a list to start from:

A) DO you have to replace your Catolytic whatchamacallit?
Of course, in time all catalysts will have to be replaced. Thankfully the new steel cats should greatly outlast the ceramic cats.


B) Why do we even NEED one; Just to burn less wood?
Well, why do we need a stove? Or better yet, why do we need any of those accessories in our cars? Just like someone who just left here. They are looking at buying another car and are trying it out. It has a moon roof. Lots of folks love them. I see no need for them.

I did wonder about this when buying our last stove. Why would I want a cat stove? At first I wanted nothing to do with them. Now that I own one I wonder why we didn't have one of these years ago. And yes, I burn less wood.


C) If so, how often do you have to replace it?
Don't really know but we will be replacing ours with the new steel cat this fall. How often is too much of a variable. Burn poor fuel and you might replace it annually. Good burning practices and some last well over 10 years.


D) What does it cost to replace? Around $100-125. Could be more for some; could be less for some.


E) Can you replace it yourself or is it better done by a Pro?
This is a task so easy that I may go get my neighbor's 5 year old son to do it. Yes, it is that easy.


F) How many seasons are you getting out of a Cat before replacement?
We've burned 4 years and this is our only heat so it is full time. Average 3 cord per year.



G) Whether you replace the Cat or not, what can you tell me about the cleaning process?
We clean our cat once or twice per year. Our present cat was not cleaned last winter so the last time was during the annual summer cleaning which, I still have not done this year.

Cleaning the cat is again, a task that the neighbor's son could do. Here is how it is done. When the stove is down to coals (not a large bed of coals but a small bed of coals. (Note that for legal purposes the manufacturers will all tell you to do this only with a cold stove. I simply wear gloves when I do this so I don't have to cool the stove.) So, I simply open the top lid, reach in with one hand and lift out the cat. I take it outdoors and using an old paint brush simply brush off the fly ash. Then the cat is set back in, the lid closed and wood added to the coals. This can take from 2 to maybe 4 or 5 minutes. So this means that if you clean once per year you have a total time of 5 minutes or less for the year. Do it twice and it has cost you 10 minutes of your time.


H) Are these Cat stoves slow to heat up or not? NO. Perhaps you are mistaking this idea with the idea that soapstone stoves heat up slowly, which, again, is highly overstated. They are not that slow to heat up.


I) What are the main differences in how you tend a Cat stove fire, -vs- a non-Cat stove fire? You add wood to both types of stoves. Other than that, the cat stoves have 2 levers. One is the same for both stoves and the other lever is for bypassing the cat. This is extremely easy to use. Bypass the cat when adding wood. By the time the fire is established and you are turning the draft down, you also move that little lever which sends the smoke through that catalyst. That is all there is to it.



J) Is there typically less room in a Cat stove for the wood? No. You can fill the firebox to the top and don't have to be concerned with the baffle.



K) Where does the Cat itself live, in the system? In the cathouse.



L) Is there more/less soot & ash residual in the flue of a Cat stove? Why?
There seems to be a whole lot less with ours. A cup of soot in 2 years burning is not a whole lot. However, that does not take into consideration some fly ash near or on the cat. Why? Ask an engineer for a full explanation but prepare to be bored.



M) How much higher (assumption on my part) is the cost of a Cat stove, -vs- a non-Cat?
That question is unanswerable. but I see no reason either one should be priced higher or lower than another. However, this is marketing and has nothing to do with this topic.



If you are a Cat owner, I'd appreciate some experienced responses and not guess work (non Cat owners) based on rumor.

Our stove at home is barely broken in, so I figure we'll not need another stove for perhaps 20 years, but.......that said......knowing that the technology will most likely be on a whole other level by then......I'd like to settle this in my head, once and for all.

(Interesting article on the subject: http://www.dimesoft.com/cat.htm)


-Soupy1957

Soupy, as far as settling anything in your head on this topic, I would not think you would settle anything at all. As I've stated before, there are good cat stove and there are good non-cat stoves. I've also stated many of the reasons why we like our cat stove and why we think it just a tad above most of the rest. The stove burns clean, we burn less, we stay warm and it is a beautiful stove. Of course there are more reasons but this is part of the reasons.

Carry on.

 

[soupy1957]

Backwoods Savage: You said, "Where does the Cat itself live, in the system? In the cathouse. "

Funny stuff!

-Soupy1957

 

[fossil]

Lopi Liberty. Non-cat. 3.1 ft³ firebox. 2.6 grams/hour emissions. I'm quite sure I don't get the burn times reported by the cat-stove burners, but then...I don't really care. Rick

 

[SolarAndWood]

B) Why do we even NEED one;

Ease of operation. Light the stove in the Fall, fill it up all the way every time, burn it at whatever rate is appropriate for the heat you need. 24+ hour burn cycles make a 7 month continuous burn a lot more convenient.

 

[raybonz]

Lopi Liberty. Non-cat. 3.1 ft³ firebox. 2.6 grams/hour emissions. I'm quite sure I don't get the burn times reported by the cat-stove burners, but then...I don't really care. Rick

Love the brass Rick!

Ray

 

[Todd]

Lopi Liberty. Non-cat. 3.1 ft³ firebox. 2.6 grams/hour emissions. I'm quite sure I don't get the burn times reported by the cat-stove burners, but then...I don't really care. Rick

Love the brass Rick!

Ray

Lopi makes a great stove but what does this post have to do with the OP?

 

[rogerandbridget]

This comes from 26 years in the industry....I'll keep it short. I have burned them all, sold them all, cleaned thousands of chimneys....etc. NO ONE WILL EVER CONVINCE ME THAT...... a higher maintenance unit is unlike a high maintenance girl......looks great on paper, but in reality......... The claims made in the show room or in the brochure mean NOTHING! You can make a mess out of your chimney with anything. I saw just as much crap (highly flammable) in the flues of cat owners as non cat owners and in some cases old smoke breathing wood destroyers. The debate is in my mind flat silly where performance is concerned. Lets focus instead on USER habits. This is where the proof lies. A chimney which can go up to 5 years serving a sole heat source using 2 chords a year for a 2000 sq/ft home without needing a cleaning is all the proof I needed to know that neither is really superior, and if so the extra couple points aren't even noticeable in the end. Lets put it in laymans terms...100% efficiency could be viewed as 100 logs into the firebox.....zero go up the flue, 85 % efficiency, 15 go up the flue (this is an attempt at painting a picture....don't lose the train of thought...ok?) if a non cat is rated at 2% less efficient, how many logs go up the flue?....do the math, negligible, yes? BUT if the cat loses 5% efficiency per year than how long is it before the non cat (lower maintenance) stays about the same, how long is it before the cat burns at a lower number than the non cat? Answer....I have seen cat stoves 20+ years old which have never even been cleaned where the cat lives. Ash, and soot plug up the air ways and your done. I realize that this is not fair in this arena as most folks here are much more educated or are looking to become so. But the average wood burner just doesn't get it I would rather concentrate on the issue of how the stove gets used, the fuel it burns, and the overall steps necessary to keep the numbers high, and emissions low........good luck settling this debate, I think I'll go clean my chimney

Thanks all for putting up with my attitude!....by the way this group really is great, I wish I'd known about it when I was first in business and computers were still in the future.

 

[raybonz]

This comes from 26 years in the industry....I'll keep it short. I have burned them all, sold them all, cleaned thousands of chimneys....etc. NO ONE WILL EVER CONVINCE ME THAT...... a higher maintenance unit is unlike a high maintenance girl......looks great on paper, but in reality......... The claims made in the show room or in the brochure mean NOTHING! You can make a mess out of your chimney with anything. I saw just as much crap (highly flammable) in the flues of cat owners as non cat owners and in some cases old smoke breathing wood destroyers. The debate is in my mind flat silly where performance is concerned. Lets focus instead on USER habits. This is where the proof lies. A chimney which can go up to 5 years serving a sole heat source using 2 chords a year for a 2000 sq/ft home without needing a cleaning is all the proof I needed to know that neither is really superior, and if so the extra couple points aren't even noticeable in the end. Lets put it in laymans terms...100% efficiency could be viewed as 100 logs into the firebox.....zero go up the flue, 85 % efficiency, 15 go up the flue (this is an attempt at painting a picture....don't lose the train of thought...ok?) if a non cat is rated at 2% less efficient, how many logs go up the flue?....do the math, negligible, yes? BUT if the cat loses 5% efficiency per year than how long is it before the non cat (lower maintenance) stays about the same, how long is it before the cat burns at a lower number than the non cat? Answer....I have seen cat stoves 20+ years old which have never even been cleaned where the cat lives. Ash, and soot plug up the air ways and your done. I realize that this is not fair in this arena as most folks here are much more educated or are looking to become so. But the average wood burner just doesn't get it I would rather concentrate on the issue of how the stove gets used, the fuel it burns, and the overall steps necessary to keep the numbers high, and emissions low........good luck settling this debate, I think I'll go clean my chimney

Thanks all for putting up with my attitude!....by the way this group really is great, I wish I'd known about it when I was first in business and computers were still in the future.

Interested in hearing and seeing that stove you invented.. Do you have any pics of it in action?

Ray

 

[BrotherBart]

Lopi Liberty. Non-cat. 3.1 ft³ firebox. 2.6 grams/hour emissions. I'm quite sure I don't get the burn times reported by the cat-stove burners, but then...I don't really care. Rick

Love the brass Rick!

Ray

Lopi makes a great stove but what does this post have to do with the OP?

About as much as all of the "why I love my cat stove" chatter had to do with the other thread. :lol:

Makes no difference. Soupy just stops in to stir.

 

[rogerandbridget]

Thanks for the inquiry Ray....

You are welcome to view a picture of me holding my prototype in our profile. We are eagerly awaiting the aug 24th release date at which time I intedt to become an advertiser on this site. In keeping with the rules of the forum I am not releasing other photo's or video's on this site (or anywhere) until we "officially" start actively selling. I am glad to discuss parameters of the stoves in lab/field performance testing. This is data collected over a two year span, and I am sure that this product will please anyone who buys them. We do have a website which gives a bit more info, but for the same reasons is not yet complete. It will be finished shortly after the release date and will offer the opportunity to see one live in action as well as options to purchase.
Again, thank you.....Roger and Bridget

 

[BrotherBart]

http://site.kimberlystove.com