Cold weather killed my burn time!

[markpee]

My first burn of my EKO 40 was on October 26 - I lit the fire that day and never had to relight since (using anything other than the coals). The weather has been relatively milkd since then, until last night. It got down to 20 degrees last night, and when I awoke, my house, normally at 70 degrees was dropping into the lower 60s. When I arrived at the boiler shed, the EKO was blowing, but the temp was at 127 degrees. I had coals, and added some bark and wood to get the fire going again. An hour later, I'm at 131 and climbing. My wife said that the house is still cool, ao I'm assuming that wither the circulator hasn't comeon yet, or the temp of the water is too low to start heating the house.

I loaded the boiler last night at around 10:30 and it was 7am when I reloaded. Normally, the house wouldn't have lost temp, but I guess the cold air takes that away. So I guess I need to either feed the boiler later, or get up earlier - or get storage, right? How would storage help me in this situation, and how would propane tank storage differ from the nice tanks sold by Dave at Cozy heat?

BTW - I have my oil boiler shut off, as I REFUSE to burn oil this winter - not only to save money, but also to make a political statement!

Mark

 

[Birdman]

Tell us about your house and heat loss. Stick built? House wrap? Insualtion? Cathedral area's? Basement insulated? How many square feet? Big Windows? Front door sealed when closed? etc,etc,etc.

 

[Birdman]

The reason I ask is I am having the same issue. I have a house with an enormous heat loss. My Tarm works great if it is 30. If it is less then that...all my circs come on and that means the return temp back to boiler is alot cooler... and not enought hot going back throught the zones. This means less heat to the zones when they are all open. This means less heat to the zones when I need more heat to them because it is colder out. A catch 22. Still trying to resolve my issue. What you described was what has just happened to me. It was great when weather was 30... my house was 70. It was 18 last night... did not get above 64 inside.

 

[WoodNotOil]

Markpee

What your describing is not unusual when the temp is really low and changes quickly. Storage would keep some of that heat to be used when the fire goes out and would bridge you over while the boiler comes back up to temp. Most people running gasifiers without storage have a problem between 7-8 hours where either the fossil has to take over or you have to deal with having less heat when the temp is really cold out. This happened to me before adding storage. It also sounds like you may be having some heat loss as well.

Birdman's problem is caused by a series hookup where the zone return comes back to the oil boiler and cools the heat coming out of the gasifier as it enters the oil boiler then heads to the zones. My guess is that this is not your problem since you went through all your fuel, his boiler was idling in the morning and I believe had some fuel left? Is you install a series hookup or P/S?

 

[markpee]

Tell us about your house and heat loss. Stick built? House wrap? Insualtion? Cathedral area's? Basement insulated? How many square feet? Big Windows? Front door sealed when closed? etc,etc,etc.

House is 2300 sqare feet - The center of the house is cathedral. It is stick built, wrapped, R21 in the walls, r38 in the ceilings. The basement ceiling is insulated and is about 1700 sqft. The garage is also 600 sqft, insulated and heated, though I have not yet had that zone on, and when I do I set it to 50. I have windows everywhere - they are double pane, etc, as the house was built in 2004, so new techniques were used. my doors are all well insulated and sealed as well. I have 12 zones (just about each room has its own, including a hot water zone). I think my insulation is okay, though since my house is a colonial/cape is has some areas that could use some improvement. I am actually happy with the house in that it maintanined temp pretty well I think, given the boiler was essentially "off".

I'm just now concerned that I should have gone with the EKO 60....though my oil boiler is rated at 140k btu.

 

[markpee]

The reason I ask is I am having the same issue. I have a house with an enormous heat loss. My Tarm works great if it is 30. If it is less then that...all my circs come on and that means the return temp back to boiler is alot cooler... and not enought hot going back throught the zones. This means less heat to the zones when they are all open. This means less heat to the zones when I need more heat to them because it is colder out. A catch 22. Still trying to resolve my issue. What you described was what has just happened to me. It was great when weather was 30... my house was 70. It was 18 last night... did not get above 64 inside.

Birdman - I too experienced this. I have some loss from boiler to boiler, as they are about 150 feet apart. I see a 10 degree difference between the wood and oil boilers. I attribute most of my loss to the pipes in the shed not yet being insulated, as well as about 20-30 feet in my basement also being uninsulated. You can feel the loss in the basement, you outright sweat when you go there.

Like I said in my previous post, I hope I didn't undersize the boiler - that would really suck.

 

[Nofossil]

My first burn of my EKO 40 was on October 26 - I lit the fire that day and never had to relight since (using anything other than the coals). The weather has been relatively milkd since then, until last night. It got down to 20 degrees last night, and when I awoke, my house, normally at 70 degrees was dropping into the lower 60s. When I arrived at the boiler shed, the EKO was blowing, but the temp was at 127 degrees. I had coals, and added some bark and wood to get the fire going again. An hour later, I'm at 131 and climbing. My wife said that the house is still cool, ao I'm assuming that wither the circulator hasn't comeon yet, or the temp of the water is too low to start heating the house.

I loaded the boiler last night at around 10:30 and it was 7am when I reloaded. Normally, the house wouldn't have lost temp, but I guess the cold air takes that away. So I guess I need to either feed the boiler later, or get up earlier - or get storage, right? How would storage help me in this situation, and how would propane tank storage differ from the nice tanks sold by Dave at Cozy heat?

BTW - I have my oil boiler shut off, as I REFUSE to burn oil this winter - not only to save money, but also to make a political statement!

Mark

It would be good to get an idea of your heat load. I doubt that the boiler is undersized - I heat 3500 square feet with an EKO 25 and I need an average of 7 hours burn time per day, a bit over 4 cords per year.

Storage lets you run the boiler flat out - its most efficient operating condition. Pressurized storage is somewhat more effective per gallon because there's no intervening heat exchanger: 180 out of the boiler is 180 into storage. By the same token, 180 out of storage is 180 to the baseboards.

 

[MrEd]

Nofossil - you have probably stated this somewhere else, but is your house super insulated? I find it amazing that you can heat a 3500 sf house on 4 cords of wood. I am under 3000sf, and am figuring on 12 cords at least. I was using 2000 gallons of oil. I know my attic insulation leaves a lot to be desired (its only about 3-4" thick), but not sure that would account for me using 3X as much wood as yours.

 

[Jim Post]

Nofossil doesn't tell his secret....He only heats his house to 45 degrees.

This year we added those plastic shrink wrap insulator kits to all of our windows and I was amazed at the difference it made in air leakage....granted our windows/house is a 40 year old ranch but the difference is remarkable.

jp

 

[markpee]

My first burn of my EKO 40 was on October 26 - I lit the fire that day and never had to relight since (using anything other than the coals). The weather has been relatively milkd since then, until last night. It got down to 20 degrees last night, and when I awoke, my house, normally at 70 degrees was dropping into the lower 60s. When I arrived at the boiler shed, the EKO was blowing, but the temp was at 127 degrees. I had coals, and added some bark and wood to get the fire going again. An hour later, I'm at 131 and climbing. My wife said that the house is still cool, ao I'm assuming that wither the circulator hasn't comeon yet, or the temp of the water is too low to start heating the house.

I loaded the boiler last night at around 10:30 and it was 7am when I reloaded. Normally, the house wouldn't have lost temp, but I guess the cold air takes that away. So I guess I need to either feed the boiler later, or get up earlier - or get storage, right? How would storage help me in this situation, and how would propane tank storage differ from the nice tanks sold by Dave at Cozy heat?

BTW - I have my oil boiler shut off, as I REFUSE to burn oil this winter - not only to save money, but also to make a political statement!

Mark

It would be good to get an idea of your heat load. I doubt that the boiler is undersized - I heat 3500 square feet with an EKO 25 and I need an average of 7 hours burn time per day, a bit over 4 cords per year.

Storage lets you run the boiler flat out - its most efficient operating condition. Pressurized storage is somewhat more effective per gallon because there's no intervening heat exchanger: 180 out of the boiler is 180 into storage. By the same token, 180 out of storage is 180 to the baseboards.

NoFossil - how do I collect the data to figure heat load? I finally got the boiler to 195 this afternoon (my wife was home and fed the boiler at 1pm - at 4:30 is was just about empty ( 2-3 pieces of wood left)). I'm burning wood like crazy! I opened the air damper on the fan as the flame is bigger, and I'm thinking it might heat faster, and hold the temp longer. Not sure if my assumption is correct, but I'm trying it anyway. Bottom line is I know I have to do some kind of storage - but probably not until next Summer.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

NoFo is your guy for EKO questions, but I DOUBT that a 40 should need to be loaded every 4 hours. Though my wood-fired hydronic is quite a bit different from yours, I can tell you I had the cold house blues the first year. I though just about everything would fix my problem (draft inducing fan, storage, programable stats, yada,yada, yada) Here's what worked:

Load it the way yhe manufacturer tells you.
Use quality wood. In the case of the GW this means moderate MC big ass oak rounds when it gets below 20, thick hemlock slab and Aspen rounds above 20.
Do NOT keep opening the door to check your fire.

Ask NoFo, but I can't understand why you can't get your unit up to temp quicker than you say.

Oh, BTW, your teenage daughter has been running away at night and hanging out downtown. She keeps leaving her window open. Make sure you factor that into your heat loss.

 

[jebatty]

deadBTU's

...and Aspen rounds above 20.

About this time one year ago you were mocking, let me say that again, mocking, my use of aspen, and if my memory is correct, saying things like, let me say that again, like, it was worse than ... well just worse than.

Glad to see that you now have found that all wood contains BTU's.

;-)

 

[markpee]

NoFo is your guy for EKO questions, but I DOUBT that a 40 should need to be loaded every 4 hours. Though my wood-fired hydronic is quite a bit different from yours, I can tell you I had the cold house blues the first year. I though just about everything would fix my problem (draft inducing fan, storage, programable stats, yada,yada, yada) Here's what worked:

Load it the way yhe manufacturer tells you.
Use quality wood. In the case of the GW this means moderate MC big ass oak rounds when it gets below 20, thick hemlock slab and Aspen rounds above 20.
Do NOT keep opening the door to check your fire.

Ask NoFo, but I can't understand why you can't get your unit up to temp quicker than you say.

Oh, BTW, your teenage daughter has been running away at night and hanging out downtown. She keeps leaving her window open. Make sure you factor that into your heat loss.

My daughter is only 4 weeks old tomorrow - I'm sure she and he brother will be sneaking out years from now! So - DBTU, should I be filling the stove with large pieces of oak when it's cold? Currently I'm using mixed wood - a lot of oak - that is split in wedges. At this point, I generally ignore my fire, unless I'm out there adding wood. And my unit is SLOW to get up to temp. I just backed off the air, as the temp was at 181 and I lost gasification. So I cust it back to half and moved the wood around with the high quality poker that came with it. Gasification instantly! Will check temp again in a while, though the house is now at 70 and outside temp is 26.

 

[Nofossil]

Answering a few questions:

My house is not superinsulated, but it's decent. I built it in 1989, and it has 5 1/2" fiberglass and 1" polyiso in the walls, and 15" (now about 12 with settling) of cellulose in the ceiling. LOTS of glass - low-e thermopane, mostly south facing. I keep my thermostats at 72 when the boiler is running and 70 when heating from storage.

There are heat loss calculators out there - search on Slantfin for one that's commonly used. You can also use previous fossil consumption. I used to burn about 720 gallons of oil per year.

For comparison, my EKO 25 takes about 40 minutes from the time gasification starts until it reaches 170. It fluctuates between 170 and 178 in normal operation.

You can estimate heat load for each zone by adding up the number of feet of baseboard (if you have baseboard). Assume 600 BTU/foot unless you have better data from the manufacturer. If the maximum load with all zones open is less than the rated capacity of the boiler, it should be able to maintain 170 to 175 with no problem.

 

[slowzuki]

Hmm, lots of windows in a north wall or lots in east west walls, and even lots in a south wall without moveable insulation can absolutely slam the heat use. Windows as a unit have very low r-values, like 1-2 kind of range when considered as a unit.

I have a lot of south glass and my insulated shutters don't exist yet. With 3000 watts of electric heat on, no insultation the house can only hold a dT of about 8 C. With 64 sq ft of glass covered I can get 12 C difference on the same power.

 

[88rxn/a]

My house is not superinsulated, but it’s decent. I built it in 1989, and it has 5 1/2” fiberglass and 1” polyiso in the walls, and 15” (now about 12 with settling) of cellulose in the ceiling. LOTS of glass - low-e thermopane, mostly south facing. I keep my thermostats at 72 when the boiler is running and 70 when heating from storage.

5 1/2"?? did you stuff it in there? i thought it was bad to stuff insulation creating a worse R value?
anytime im going to need to open a wall im going to check the insulation and add more if i can. the last owner bailed out after almost finishing the re-model of my house so im finishing where he left off. i found about 3 inches (of insulation) in my attic!! i plan to buy a roll of R-34 everytime im near LOWES untill its done.

 

[M1sterM]

My house is not superinsulated, but it’s decent. I built it in 1989, and it has 5 1/2” fiberglass and 1” polyiso in the walls, and 15” (now about 12 with settling) of cellulose in the ceiling. LOTS of glass - low-e thermopane, mostly south facing. I keep my thermostats at 72 when the boiler is running and 70 when heating from storage.

5 1/2"?? did you stuff it in there? i thought it was bad to stuff insulation creating a worse R value?
anytime im going to need to open a wall im going to check the insulation and add more if i can. the last owner bailed out after almost finishing the re-model of my house so im finishing where he left off. i found about 3 inches (of insulation) in my attic!! i plan to buy a roll of R-34 everytime im near LOWES untill its done.

It's easy to use 5 1/2 " of insulation when you build a house with 2x6's...no stuffing required.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

deadBTU's

...and Aspen rounds above 20.

About this time one year ago you were mocking, let me say that again, mocking, my use of aspen, and if my memory is correct, saying things like, let me say that again, like, it was worse than ... well just worse than.

Glad to see that you now have found that all wood contains BTU's.

;-)

The difference being, this year, what little Aspen I picked up I kept seperate from the real wood, aka oak. I'd still rather ski Aspen than burn Aspen ;-)

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

[quote author="markpee" date="1227154089] So - DBTU, should I be filling the stove with large pieces of oak when it's cold? Currently I'm using mixed wood - a lot of oak - that is split in wedges. At this point, I generally ignore my fire, unless I'm out there adding wood. And my unit is SLOW to get up to temp. I just backed off the air, as the temp was at 181 and I lost gasification. So I cust it back to half and moved the wood around with the high quality poker that came with it. Gasification instantly! Will check temp again in a while, though the house is now at 70 and outside temp is 26. [/quote]

Check with other owners of the type of unit you have. The GW definitly does better with large rounds. Part of the reason is it is natural draft, so to much surface area kills the fuel/air mixture. Go by what the manufacturer and other users here tell you. I believe that the European down-draft models work better with smaller, dryer wood.