Confused

[Bill]

First off this is a great forum. I am going to read it from top to bottom, I am about half done already.

But I am really undecided what to buy.

I have a cabin, 700 square feet, open loft 19 feet high, with bedroom upstairs open to the loft. The house is about 10 years old, with insulated walls and ceiling. The interior of the building is car siding and there are many cracks around the tongue and groove siding letting my heat escape. The house is on cement pylons and the wind can blow under the house. Part of the floor that I could access has Styrofoam panels in it. That is about half the first level and half is not insulated.

I presently have an Ashly stove and used it last year and now and I hate it. The box is warped and when it gets hot you can see a little flame in the upper left corner of the door. But not when it's cold. This weekend I am replacing the gasket and tightening up the door.

I have all the equipment and as much wood to last a lifetime on my property.

My dilemma is what stove to buy. When we arrive at the house it sometimes is 4 degrees inside. I have an electric furnace and it cost a fortune to run, is noisy, and under size for these cold conditions.

We will probably retire here in 6 years and tear the building down and build a new house. And install this stove in the new house.

I think soap stone is exquisite, I like enameled cast iron, and I have a dealer by me that sells Napoleon stoves and I was looking at the 1900 with gold trim and door, with a blower.

I would like to get the house up to normal temperatures quite fast and want a stove that can burn all night. I just can't make my mind up. I talked to a few different dealers and each one says there's is the best.

Right now I have ceramic tile under the Ashley and about a 14' chimney straight up the loft and into stainless double wall pipe. I bought double wall black pipe for the new install, just cannot make up my mind.

This will be the last stove I buy and I don't care what I spend, what do you pros's think?

Bill

 

[begreen]

The Napoleon is a good stove. But I think the 1900 would bake you in that cabin. It is a 3 cu ft stove. Maybe consider their smaller stove like the 1100 or 1400? Burning all night in a small stove is going to be a challenge, sorry. But getting a big honker in there will mean that you'll not be able to sleep when it's pushing 100 degrees in the loft.

You also might want to look at the Vermont Castings Intrepid for that size cabin. It is smaller but has a longer burn due to the CAT. Maybe also look at a Woodstock soapstone? And add a ceiling fan so that the loft doesn't turn into an oven.

 

[Corie]

I would highly suggest the intrepid like BeG said, or consider the small Consolidated Dutchwest Stove.


I'm a big time proponent of the catalytic CDW stoves because they are simple to operate, have a side loading door and are catalytic which will help give you longer burn times and less intense heat than the size non-cat stove that would be required to get true overnight burns.

Also, the CDW stoves, particularly the small one, are quite reasonable priced, have good clearences to combustibles with heat shields and double wall pipe and look great. Also, even the smallest CDW catalytic stove will take an 18" log through the side door with ease and can be stuffed to the "gills" through that side door.

 

[Roospike]

The 700 sf space is one thing then you add your would like to have the stove for a lifetime and will be putting it in the new house when built.

#1 I would go with a steel stove ( plate or cast iron ) for quicker heat .
#2 a mid size stove sound in order for the 700 sf and when the new house with new insulation gets built the mid size stove will work too.

Lot of good choices out there..........

I will have to suggest the Pacific Energy stove ( anybody suprised? ) in the mid size.
Look at the P.E. models (non cat )

Super 27
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacsup27.htm

Spectrum
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacspec.htm

Classic
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacspecc.htm

and or even the Fusion model.
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacfusion.htm

They ALL have the same firebox but are all set up a little different to your choices. There all made of 1/4" thick steel bodies with 3/8" thick steel tops and the internals parts are made of 304 stainless steel.

The Pacific Energy stoves all have a Lifetime Warranty

 

[elkimmeg]

What Roo missed telling you none have EBT also that PE has no stove in their line up that matches your heating requirement Possibly a fusssion?

One must oversize over 100% to install his suggestions One must learn how to burn on low and never find the sweet spot for secondary combustion becausee the stove does not get hot enough to achieve secondary burn unless it is baking you out of the house

there is nothing wrong with considering plate steel stoves cast iron or soapstove MAN a smaller Woodsttock would work well for your application plus extend your heat range and they are on sale

 

[mikeathens]

Though some on here might argue that I'm not a "pro", I'd second Corie's suggestion about the small DW catalytic. I had good burn times and good heat output when I had one. My house was 900 SF, well insulated, and it would roast me out with max heat output except when the temp got below 15-20 F outside. They are nice looking stoves, have side loading, nice viewing window, and an ash pan, the last being harder to find in smaller stoves like this.

 

[Harley]

Just a couple things to also consider, without goint too much into type of stove, or what you may be ruling out at this point:

You mentioned being able to heat up the building quick is somewhat important right now (understandable)... That kind of rules out a soapstone stove, but you did mention you like them.

You also thought you might be retiring and puting up a new home, and this could be the last stove you would want to buy. I think this really changes what you need to look at, as the situation could be dramaticaly different in 6 years.... I'd buy the stove with what the new home is going to be - get the right stove for that house, and deal with its problem (or shortcomings) in the "camp" for now.

try to think about what the sf for the retirement home will be, how well insulated... I'm guessing it won't be up on piers, so the wind underneath may not be an issue, or as much. If you are going to be there full time, and burning 24/7, then a soapstone stove could be back in the picture.

 

[Roospike]

Just a couple things to also consider, without goint too much into type of stove, or what you may be ruling out at this point:

You mentioned being able to heat up the building quick is somewhat important right now (understandable)... That kind of rules out a soapstone stove, but you did mention you like them.

You also thought you might be retiring and puting up a new home, and this could be the last stove you would want to buy. I think this really changes what you need to look at, as the situation could be dramaticaly different in 6 years.... I'd buy the stove with what the new home is going to be - get the right stove for that house, and deal with its problem (or shortcomings) in the "camp" for now.

try to think about what the sf for the retirement home will be, how well insulated... I'm guessing it won't be up on piers, so the wind underneath may not be an issue, or as much. If you are going to be there full time, and burning 24/7, then a soapstone stove could be back in the picture.

Thank you Harley , Thats what i was trying to say ..............

I'm unsure what up with ole ELKer , his post sounded like a newbe with a wood stove.

ELK ! You dont have to run a wood stove at one set temperature ! we have been over this a thousand times. Its starting to sound like your VC stove only run one temp and you cant control the burn.

You can run a wood stove at low temp and you do get secondary burn. I can get it under 300°

IF YOU HAVE TO RUN YOUR STOVE HOT AND AT 500° TO BURN CLEAN THEN YOU HAVE THE WRONG STOVE ! The way ole ELKer talk it sounds like you need to stay away from Vermont Castings.

***************************** :zip: *******************************

 

[Harley]

Sorry, Spike... I actually missed that first sentance in your post when I read it the first time - I guess I did end up repeating pretty much what you said.

 

[Gunner]

First off were is the cabin??? to give an idea of climate

Secondly, you are talking about tearing down this existing cabin in 6 yrs and building a house and would like to use the same stove...depending on the size of the house to be built this may require some compromise either now or later. Like Harley said I would size the stove for the house you intend to retire in not the temp cabin.

Elk,

What Roo missed telling you none have EBT also that PE has no stove in their line up that matches your heating requirement Possibly a fusssion?

??????????????WTF????????????????
The Vista is a 1.41cuft stove rated for 600-1400sqft depending on the climate would be just about perfect for a 700sqft leaky cabin with a partially uninsulated floor

 

[Gunner]

One must oversize over 100% to install his suggestions One must learn how to burn on low and never find the sweet spot for secondary combustion becausee the stove does not get hot enough to achieve secondary burn unless it is baking you out of the house

Tell us again about taking you stove to 600 griddle top before engaging the cat.

there is nothing wrong with considering plate steel stoves cast iron or soapstove MAN a smaller Woodsttock would work well for your application plus extend your heat range and they are on sale

Quickly bringing a cabin up to temp from 4 deg and you recommend a small soapstone heater. From what Iunderstand soapstone stoves are fantastic but quick heat is not there strong suit.

 

[keyman512us]

As Corie stated:

I’m a big time proponent of the catalytic CDW stoves because they are simple to operate, have a side loading door and are catalytic which will help give you longer burn times and less intense heat than the size non-cat stove that would be required to get true overnight burns.

Also, the CDW stoves, particularly the small one, are quite reasonable priced, have good clearences to combustibles with heat shields and double wall pipe and look great. Also, even the smallest CDW catalytic stove will take an 18” log through the side door with ease and can be stuffed to the “gills” through that side door.

I had a CDW Federal Airtight Large model at my last house and it worked great. Good all around stove, great heat, burn times and good efficiency. It was wood/coal rated. I don't know if they still make a dual fuel model...But if you aren't in any hurry do some shopping around, you can find them...and they are worth it. The big model is somewhat heavy...thats' why it stayed with the house...kickin' myself now but ohh well! Good Luck!

 

[elkimmeg]

Since Vc recomends griddle top temps I see no problem indexing them I see no problem waiting till 600 degrees before I engage my cat since that is a good 150 lower than their warning area
Since I use stove combustor.com cats I can engage them when the internal fire box reaches 380 and light off the cat try burning secondsry smoke in a non xat in an internal fire box under 400 degrees it takes 1100 degrees to burn smoke unless using a ca.. You are right I could use a condar cat probe for a presise cat engagementt. I can also engage much sooner I do not wait to 600 degrees at all times part of it is establishing a good bed of coals bringing the wood toa char condition and engage w I have found tha below 15 degrees the 600 degree griddle top engagement works well these stoves tend to react with the thermatic secondary air to remember the temp when engaged ans trys to regulate air to maintain that temp. When it cold I want 600
degrees, This forum is as educational to me as it is to others. I welcome Roo and gunner to educate me in running my stove if you deam I am running it wrong. I'm willing to be educated I will admit when wrong I admitt other stoves are better. I admit my $500 used stove is not the best I admit there are better stoves out there than My free IntrepidII I admit there and better chainsaws than my one year old $.67 Huskey 357xp. Some may admit I try my danmest to get thes items working right and to get the most out of them within a realistic safe range but I could be wrong so educate me

 

[Corie]

Roo and Gunner,

The Super 27, Fusion, Classic and Spectrum are all in the 1.5 cu. ft. firebox range and don't feature EBT, as far I can tell. Its hard to believe that 1.5 cu. ft is good for 2000 sq. ft. of heating as they say on their website. But assuming they aren't over listing those stoves beyond their capability, they certainly seem like overkill for his cabin in its current state.

I know that Pacific Energy stoves are wonderfully engineering and constructed pieces of heating equipment and I don't mean to take anything away from that. But how can a 1.4 cu. ft. firebox possibly give good strong overnight burns without EBT? My stove is 1.6 cu. ft. and stretching it beyond 7 hours with any useable heat is basically impossible.

Also, since by the manufacturer's rating, the Super 27, Fusion, Classic and Spectrum are all probably on the large end of stoves he could use, he could certainly accomplish lower BTU output by simply putting less wood in the stove. How though, does that work into the equation when the weather is mild? A 40 degree night is going to require a small fire in the stove, which means little wood, which translates into a very remote possibility of an overnight burn, even though the heat will be needed throughout the night because of the heat loss of a relatively poorly insulated cabin.

This is where I think the catalytic stove comes into play. A catalytic stove can be loaded with wood, allowed to reach cat operating temperature and then cranked down to burn extremely slowly with low heat output. It doesn't necessarily require tiny loads of wood to accomplish diminished heat output.

I know you Pacific Energy owners are gung-ho on these stoves, but I just don't see how any non-catalytic stove is the solution for a small space like this.

 

[elkimmeg]

Bless me father for today I have found out I have sinned. 30 years of wood burning over 150 cords burnt which saved me nearly 20,000 gallons of oil. Over 100 house lots cleared 3 miles of roads and today I found out I was doing it wrong, with the wrong equipment, wrong stoves and wrongfully operations. It has been pointed out to me by a two year burner and another novice burner I have done wrong. But luckily, for penance, they are going to set me straight with a few Hail Marys

I taken a deep breath cleared my mind waiting for your instructions

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i think that we need to look at both structures, first the "cabin" 700 SF not well insulated at all, will take an oversized heater to hold temps in cold climate, long burn times, to hold overnight, bigger firebox needed because he isnt well insulated and will need more heat than normal well insulated home (future construction) which by the way it would help to know how big that new house may be intended to be so we can think as well towards matching the unit to it while still keepiing you from freezing in the mean time in the cabin. if the new house is going to be bigger, then a unit sized to that house will likely not bake you out of the smaller one due to the amount of heat loss in the cabin from poor insulation, now, you were looking for fast heat, steel stove then cast then soapstone in that order, a cat stove will probably not come up quite as fast as a non-cat reburn unit, so with respect to my learned fellow contributers, i would lean to a non-cat reburn, (PE, VC, ESW, or some others i have missed) the cast or soapstone units may well be better suited to the new construction too, so bearing that in mind the decision to make should not just address this install but also the future one, you may have to give up a feature such as "quick heat" to have the optimal performance in the new house, or possibly go with what will be optimal in this cabin and not quite be suited perfectly in the new house. (as you stated you want this to be your last stove purchase) one thing i will say, any of the brands that i have seen mentioned in this thread by our panel will be a quality unit that will not fall apart on you, but im taking a longer view on matching up both situations, not just the present. any input you can give us on size, floor plan etc. for the new house you are speaking of will help us help you in the longer view of your thread.

no such thing as too much info.

mike

 

[Gunner]

Roo and Gunner,

The Super 27, Fusion, Classic and Spectrum are all in the 1.5 cu. ft. firebox range and don't feature EBT, as far I can tell. Its hard to believe that 1.5 cu. ft is good for 2000 sq. ft. of heating as they say on their website. But assuming they aren't over listing those stoves beyond their capability, they certainly seem like overkill for his cabin in its current state.

I know that Pacific Energy stoves are wonderfully engineering and constructed pieces of heating equipment and I don't mean to take anything away from that. But how can a 1.4 cu. ft. firebox possibly give good strong overnight burns without EBT? My stove is 1.6 cu. ft. and stretching it beyond 7 hours with any useable heat is basically impossible.

Also, since by the manufacturer's rating, the Super 27, Fusion, Classic and Spectrum are all probably on the large end of stoves he could use, he could certainly accomplish lower BTU output by simply putting less wood in the stove. How though, does that work into the equation when the weather is mild? A 40 degree night is going to require a small fire in the stove, which means little wood, which translates into a very remote possibility of an overnight burn, even though the heat will be needed throughout the night because of the heat loss of a relatively poorly insulated cabin.

This is where I think the catalytic stove comes into play. A catalytic stove can be loaded with wood, allowed to reach cat operating temperature and then cranked down to burn extremely slowly with low heat output. It doesn't necessarily require tiny loads of wood to accomplish diminished heat output.

I know you Pacific Energy owners are gung-ho on these stoves, but I just don't see how any non-catalytic stove is the solution for a small space like this.

Corie, to set the record staight the Spectrum is a 1.97 cu stove not a 1.5, and I recommended a vista not a spectrum for the CABIN.

Also a house is to be built and the same stove is to be used in the new possibly bigger house hence one may have to live with that is not the perfect fit for a few years until the permenant residence is built.

Elk, I was reponding to your remark about PE not having a stove in there lineup that fits his needs, which is wrong, the vista is rated 600-1400sqft.

 

[Corie]

Gunner, I'm not arguing with you, but where did you get that number from?


I'm starting at the firebox right now, and having a hard time seeing how it could possibly be 2 cu. ft.


*edit* The height of the combustion chamber would have to be nearly 11 inches for that to be possible, assuming the combustion chamber is 18"W x 18"D which comes from the firebrick diagram in the manual.

 

[Gunner]

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacspecc.htm

sorry you must be confusing the Vista with the Spectrum

 

[Corie]

Hrm. I guess they're a bit generous in the calculation? Perhaps they're accounting for some area that we can really discern from the diagrams.

Oh well.

 

[Bill]

Thank you everyone for your replies. The new house will be about 2000 sq'. My cabin is zone 5, in the midwest and has no shelter, with plenty of wind.

I took some advice already and went to a VC dealer, had very little inventory, said it's the end of the season, but he had a Dutchwest, mid size. Now this is not a cat stove, has the everburn feature. He offered me this stove for $1,099.00, but is has a small chip out of the right side, front lip. The stove looked very well made, but the salesperson was new and didn't know anything about the stove. Kind of ticked me off, because I like to ask a lot of questions. He is a VC dealer but had non on the sales floor, but had lots of fireplaces.

I have a few questions, does 24 kt gold plate on cast iron doors last? I am going to use double wall stainless black pipe for the new install, with a probe thermometor, do I drill through the pipe and if so do I need to seal the hole? Does it pay for me to seal the joint between the stove pipe?

Were going to the cabin tomorrow, then I will measure to make sure what I get fits. Also this dealer said enamel over cast iron can chip and crack. So when I got to the store I asked the salesperson that question and she said no it's never happened. What's the concessious on that?

My biggest fear is to get a stove that will not heat the house up fast enough, my wife likes it hot.

Thanks again for all your responses.

Bill

 

[stoveguy2esw]

this time of year it isnt suprising that he would be less than stocked, usually that happens, but usually its when you can swing a deal,providing what he has fits the bill. VC makes a quality line of product, im not as intimately familiar with the line as some others in here are (elk in particular) but their reputation in the industry is great. hope you discuss the stove in the manner that it will have a new home a few years off and that it will be a unit which will cover the new home as well as keep ya toasty until the new home is ready.

 

[Corie]

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacspecc.htm

sorry you must be confusing the Vista with the Spectrum

Nope. Not confusing the two at all.


I'm staring at the Spectrum manual.

At most, the firebox is 18" wide, 18" deep (including the "boost" manifold), and it is 7.75" tall.

The distance from the top of the side firebricks to the bottom of the baffle has to be 2.75" for a 1.96 cu. ft. firebox.

Also, that assumes that you consider the usable space of the firebox to go right up to the wood touching the bottom of the baffle. It also assumes you consider the boost manifold as a loadable part of the firebox, even though I'm sure most people don't load logs on top of it, but rather in front of it.

Even if you count loading to the bottom of the baffle, take that boost manifold volume out, and the firebox capacity drops to 1.7 inches. Probably closer to the actual useable dimension of the firebox.

 

[elkimmeg]

Bill I see you heating issues as two parts your stove and buttoning up that cabin. I think you should take measures to address the floor isuy uven 6" r-19 will be a huge inprovemnet
you wife wants to warm up quick what better way to do this than eliminating the heat loss areas . I know you are tearing it down in a few years but even cheap hard board tacked up on the bottom to make sure the insulation stays there is well worth it maybe some additional caulking Providing heat is one part retaining heat is the mort important concern.

You know the there is another approach what if you bought an Englander NC-13 or century FW 2400 or FW2700 you are buying them cheap enough using them 6 yeas and sell them after 6 years and purchase a stove the size needed for the new home/ Home Depot had the NC-13 for sale $235 the FW 2700 I bought for $288 at these priced=s you could burn for s 6 years ans probably sell it for what you paid. These size stoves will work well in the cabin then spend some money buttoning up you know you can reuse the insulation over again

 

[Gunner]

Corie, I may be wrong but I believe that they count the space the secondary burn baffle occupies. This is done with other stoves aswell, I think BB mentioned it in another thread.

PS I load till wood is touching the baffle across it's entire length almost everynight.