Contacts in SE Pennsylvania?

[JeepDoug]

Good Morning! I'm a long time reader, first time poster . . . getting ready to finally take the plunge and add a wood boiler to my oil hot water system . . . As all newbies, I've been reading and researching all I can. I'm now to the point that I feel I need to be looking for some experts, friends, contacts, contractors etc in my neck of the woods for some help and specific questions . . .

Wood boiler's integrated into residential hot water is kind of an odd duck in South East Pennsylvania and I 'm having some trouble finding anyone around here who knows anything about it . . . So, can anyone offer any names of people or contractors, re-sellers, or anyone I can contact and maybe visit? I'm specifically in the Philadelphia suburbs but am willing to travel a ways if I have to . . .

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Good Morning! I'm a long time reader, first time poster . . . getting ready to finally take the plunge and add a wood boiler to my oil hot water system . . . As all newbies, I've been reading and researching all I can. I'm now to the point that I feel I need to be looking for some experts, friends, contacts, contractors etc in my neck of the woods for some help and specific questions . . .

Wood boiler's integrated into residential hot water is kind of an odd duck in South East Pennsylvania and I 'm having some trouble finding anyone around here who knows anything about it . . . So, can anyone offer any names of people or contractors, re-sellers, or anyone I can contact and maybe visit? I'm specifically in the Philadelphia suburbs but am willing to travel a ways if I have to . . .

Welcome Doug.

You are right, wood boilers are oddities around here, because you have to work your ass off to keep them running. I talked with a gentleman who had ventured into the neighborhood post utility line clearing to scavenge recently. He said that he burns at least 10 cords of wood every year. That'll get old real quick, even if you have the available wood resources.

Plus, there's the fact that you have to go outside constantly in all weather to keep it fed. In this day and age, when the alternative is to just to turn up the thermostat, I'm surprised anyone would do it. And I'm a glutton for punishment who heats with wood, about 95% of requirement.

Finally, do you think that you will ever come close to breaking even on the cost of installing the boiler? These are complicated and expensive installations. If I were an engineer or tradesman, I might try it myself. And good luck finding someone with experience doing it for you, for less than a small fortune.

Just some perspective to consider. And no, unfortunately I can't provide references for you to consult on this. Good luck!

 

[JeepDoug]

Thanks for the insight, and yes, I hear you on all fronts with the items to consider . . . I have been burning wood for years in my JOTUL wood stove. About 8 cords per season . . . so I know all about the work involved in this fuel source!! The wood stove has served us well in making heat, but it doesn't distribute to the entire house very well . . . so I keep the oil boiler on line at an idle 45 degrees pretty much just as a way to keep pipes in the far reaches of the house from freezing, and for if we go away for more then a day or 2. . . . so integrating the wood in water-boiler form is more a matter of feeling like I can turn up the thermostat, and finally having some more even heat and comfort all over the house. Yes, I can burn the oil . . . but why don't I want to? Well, from my reading on this forum, we all seem to be cut from the same cloth . . . ecology, cost, personal fulfillment . . . sometimes just because it is what we've always done and what we like to do . . . Is it cost effective? Wood is a waste product for me, so The payback is a simple math problem . . . we've decided to stay in this house for many years, so I figure it's gotta pay back eventually !!

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Thanks for the insight, and yes, I hear you on all fronts with the items to consider . . . I have been burning wood for years in my JOTUL wood stove. About 8 cords per season . . . so I know all about the work involved in this fuel source!! The wood stove has served us well in making heat, but it doesn't distribute to the entire house very well . . . so I keep the oil boiler on line at an idle 45 degrees pretty much just as a way to keep pipes in the far reaches of the house from freezing, and for if we go away for more then a day or 2. . . . so integrating the wood in water-boiler form is more a matter of feeling like I can turn up the thermostat, and finally having some more even heat and comfort all over the house. Yes, I can burn the oil . . . but why don't I want to? Well, from my reading on this forum, we all seem to be cut from the same cloth . . . ecology, cost, personal fulfillment . . . sometimes just because it is what we've always done and what we like to do . . . Is it cost effective? Wood is a waste product for me, so The payback is a simple math problem . . . we've decided to stay in this house for many years, so I figure it's gotta pay back eventually !!

Right on, Doug! Sorry, I probably provided a bunch of perspective you already have. I'm in total agreement with everything you said.

The wood boiler lifestyle is only for real special (I'm not sure I mean this as a compliment ;-) )people, I consider myself among them. The only things that prevents me from doing it is the expense and the complete dearth of expertise. Essentially, I think I'd be on my own if I went there. I could handle the stove and liner install that I have, but once I started to read the adventures outlined in the Boiler Room forum, I knew I would be reaching way past my capabilities.

Hope you can find what you need and get it done, you sound as prepared as one could be. Look forward to reading about your adventures.

 

[Fred61]

When someone mentions wood boiler the uninformed among us immediately think outdoor wood boiler. fact is, there are several indoor wood boilers that are several orders of magnitude more efficient than outdoor units. The newer outdoor EPA approved units are far more efficient than the older units that the wood scrounger probably operates but are still less efficient than most indoor gassifiers for obvious reasons.

I am assuming that the OP and the wood scrounger are talking full cords (128 cubic feet). If that's the case both need to seriously review the insulation and tightness of their homes. You have to have a hell of a fire burning in order to burn 8 cords of wood in a Jotul free standing stove in one season. I burn plus or minus 3 cords of wood in my EKO gassifier up here in Vermont and it's almost no work at all. And I'm 75 years old. Perhaps the definition of "work" should be variable depending upon which part of the country in which you reside.

I will admit though, that if you need to spend upwards of $200,00 per cord for your wood, you may be better off putting your money into super insulating your home and practicing energy efficient hacks like window insulation. etc. South Philly is temperate compared to the temperatures we live with up here.

 

[Bad LP]

Is it work? Is it expensive? Yes, no question. I'll add it's hard to justify when the price of fossil heating is so cheap right now. For some of us not too long ago we were bitching about 4.00/gal gasoline and with oil and propane in the very high 3.00/gal range. I made the commitment to go with an indoor gasification expecting that these current low prices will once again spike.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Is it work? Is it expensive? Yes, no question. I'll add it's hard to justify when the price of fossil heating is so cheap right now. For some of us not too long ago we were bitching about 4.00/gal gasoline and with oil and propane in the very high 3.00/gal range. I made the commitment to go with an indoor gasification expecting that these current low prices will once again spike.

The prices will go up again, you can count on that. The only question is when. Could be next week, could be far enough in the future that it won't matter to anyone here (I think the former is far more likely). You have an insurance policy against future price increases. Not a bad position to be in.

 

[leon]

Good Morning! I'm a long time reader, first time poster . . . getting ready to finally take the plunge and add a wood boiler to my oil hot water system . . . As all newbies, I've been reading and researching all I can. I'm now to the point that I feel I need to be looking for some experts, friends, contacts, contractors etc in my neck of the woods for some help and specific questions . . .

Wood boiler's integrated into residential hot water is kind of an odd duck in South East Pennsylvania and I 'm having some trouble finding anyone around here who knows anything about it . . . So, can anyone offer any names of people or contractors, re-sellers, or anyone I can contact and maybe visit? I'm specifically in the Philadelphia suburbs but am willing to travel a ways if I have to . . .

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You would be better served with a small wood and coal hand fed boiler since you are in Anthracite Coal country if you are going to take the plunge. Both Electric Fire Man and Alternate Heating Systems makes several models of wood and coal hand fed boilers that also dual fuel units. I replaced two old units with a dual fuel coal stoker.

I quit burning wood in a hand fed coal and wood boiler after 33+ years and I went to a Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel coal stoker burning rice coal.

I only burn the dinosaur juice when I have to and I keep my boiler at 160 high 140 low with 4 P.S.I.G. using a
15 gallon steel expansion tank system using one circulator. The steel expansion tank method eliminates the need to bleed radiators.

I would strongly advise you to purchase 2 books "Classic Hydronics" and "Pumping Away" written by Dan Holohan.
He makes the reading fun to read by explaining everything making it easy to read for the experienced plumber and
the layperson/homeowner with plenty of real examples from the actual history of plumbing involving heating of all
types from his work experience as a plumbers helper and B+G technical representative and as plumbing trouble
shooter and he provides the reader with real world examples from plumbing history describing the pioneers of
plumbing like Mr. Honeywell and many others. His past experience in plumbing and heating is a wealth of information
that is easily understood by the home owner and plumber alike.

You will find it is easier to find an AHS or EFM boiler dealer that sells dual fuel units near or in Pottstown, PA

If you purchase these books from www.dansbooks.com all profits go to the author.

 

[JeepDoug]

Fred: Yes, you are right . . . it is hell pushing 8 cords thru my little JOTUL . . . we are burning pretty hard all of the time. I also end up pushing the temps higher then normal in the room with the stove to try to convect as much heat as I can into other areas of the house .. . and yes, our house is as loose as they come from an insulation standpoint . . . I was was brief in my original post, but this boiler installation is part of a much larger renovation plan. We are doing a major interior gut and refit including a substantial improvement in R-value and air-tightness . . . I left all of that out figuring that this was not an appropriate forum for all of that . . . .

As far as the stove type for this project, I am specifying an interior gasifier with storage . . . I have a nearly ideal location in the basement with a garage door outside access to grade level . . . easy to bring in a pallet load of wood on the backhoe forks and set it right inside. This will be a significant improvement over my current situation of one armload at a time from the front porch thru the house to the stove . . . (imagine how many trips that is for 8 cords in a season!!) It also takes all of the wood mess out of the main living space into the utility space where it belongs !!

 

[JeepDoug]

LEON: Thanks for the advice on the books to read . . . I'll look them up and see if I can get a copy . . . I am educating myself as much as possible currently. . . . as far as coal . . . I'm not necessarily a fan of that . . . the wood makes sense for me as it is free or at lease the raw material costs nothing . . . it is just a labor cost . . . As my current backup boiler ages and needs replaced, I will most likely opt for an LP gas conversion . . . it makes more sense in my current location . . .

 

[JeepDoug]

Brad and Ed 3000, you guys are speaking my language !!

 

[maple1]

Smokeless Heat. Lebanon.

 

[Fred61]

I was was brief in my original post, but this boiler installation is part of a much larger renovation plan. We are doing a major interior gut and refit including a substantial improvement in R-value and air-tightness . . . I left all of that out figuring that this was not an appropriate forum for all of that

Just want to remind you that insulating is not just throwing a few batts of fiberglass on the wall. There is nearly as much to learn about insulating and tightening up one's house as there is to understanding your boiler installation and doing it correctly also requires homework. Doing it correctly will pay you back year after year.

Of course weatherization fits in this forum. We want you to come back in a couple years bragging how warm and comfortable you are while burning just a handful of fuel.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Just want to remind you that insulating is not just throwing a few batts of fiberglass on the wall. There is nearly as much to learn about insulating and tightening up one's house as there is to understanding your boiler installation and doing it correctly also requires homework. Doing it correctly will pay you back year after year.

Of course weatherization fits in this forum. We want you to come back in a couple years bragging how warm and comfortable you are while burning just a handful of fuel.

Fred, I agree with you regarding insulation, and like the way you think. I'm just getting started on my insulation project. Any specific tips or resources you would recommend to the uninformed novice?

 

[JeepDoug]

Yes Smokless Heat looks like a great source for info . . . I spent yesterday reading up on what their web site offers . . . I'll give them a call now and see what they have to say . . . only 60 minutes from me . . . wonder if they have a showroom . . .

Thanks for the contact!

 

[maple1]

Yes Smokless Heat looks like a great source for info . . . I spent yesterday reading up on what their web site offers . . . I'll give them a call now and see what they have to say . . . only 60 minutes from me . . . wonder if they have a showroom . . .

Thanks for the contact!

I'm like 18+ hours and another country away & they served me very well - my boiler was in my driveway before my money was in PA, I think.

 

[Fred61]

Fred, I agree with you regarding insulation, and like the way you think. I'm just getting started on my insulation project. Any specific tips or resources you would recommend to the uninformed novice?

First of all take the task seriously. If you are going to take the walls down to the studs be sure to foam any hole or crack that may allow air to infiltrate. I did one room a year in our house. Removed the drywall, fixed up the poorly installed insulation that the builder hung then I screwed 1 1/2 inch polyisocyanurate panels to the studs, taped the joints with plastic tape and applied drywall over that.

Be sure to get the sill (rim joist) foamed. Any place you don't have polyiso be sure to apply a good vapor barrier and tape it at the windows. Windows?? Get yourself some windows that the wind doesn't blow through and install them correctly.

The need for vapor barrier in the ceiling varies from house to house. If your house was built with a good 6 mil vapor barrier under your concrete basement floor then you will probably need a vapor barrier in the ceiling. If your concrete slab is poured without a vapor barrier and your house is sitting on heavy soil and not in well draining gravel then you should not have a vapor barrier. There are other things that contribute to moisture in the house. If you tighten up the house the way I suggested above that will contribute to the addition of moisture in the living space. Excess moisture will condense in cold spots and cause mold as well as rot. Right now I'm living on the line in my place. I haven't sprung for a heat exchanger yet so I must be very careful about making too much moisture. I have exhaust fans that move a lot of air but I need to open a vent for make- up air. I recently found a source for make-up air that I wasn't aware of and that was air flowing down the chimney of my oil boiler and entering the basement through the barometric damper when exhaust fans were running.

I recently stumbled on a study on heat loss (lost it-- didn't bookmark it) that referenced radiant heat loss. Basically it gave no credit to any material except for reflective material for stopping radiant heat loss. It was believable to me given the experience I have gotten with my in floor and under floor heat. In my living room, the heat comes right up through 2 layers on 3/4" underlayment and 1 layer of 3/4 inch hardwood. It implied that the windows wouldn't loose any more radiant heat if they were not there. Walls and ceilings didn't get much credit either. Perhaps there's a message there for the folks that are installing in wall radiant. You have to tell it which way to radiate with a good reflector regardless of the materials on each side of the tubing.
That prompted me to start an experiment. I'm making three roll up shades with just a piece of fabric for looks with a lining of aluminized mylar for my living and dining room. Yes, I sew! Quite well actually! I have one built and was supposed to start another today but I had a serviceman here to replace a circuit board in the inverter for my solar array.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

ATI Systems
4339 Main Street
Conestoga, PA 17516

Tarm Biomass Contact: Carl Longenecker
Phone: (717) 871-9851
Email: [email protected]

Carl is a longtime dealer of ours and has a Fröling wood boiler in his own home. Carl is a great resource in SE PA.

 

[JeepDoug]

Thanks again all for the info. I spent several hours at smokless heat last week and I was VERY impressed . . . I'll check out the ATI contact this week . . . going to make a decision on this thing in the next few weeks . . .

And thanks fred for the info on the insulation upgrades . . . Interesting that you put the polyiso on the INSIDE of the house . . . Most around here in PA spec out putting 2 inches on the outside of the house under the siding as part of a rain screen and air barrior plan . . . I guess it is ok as long as you don't seal the wall from both sides. I'm told you have to provide a way for the wall to dry to one side or the other or you can potentially trap moisture and cause mold growth . . . I'm still researching this . . .

Thanks again, and if there are any other contacts, I'll certainly run down the leads!

 

[Fred61]

Whomever told you this is half right. You do have to provide a way for moisture to dry to one side if you apply it to the outside but if you apply it to the inside it becomes the best vapor barrier possible. That even promotes the case for applying it to the inside. They realized early on that by applying it to the outside trapped moisture in the walls and at one time even sold a zig-zagged piece of metal to apply to the bottom inch of the sheet to allow for air circulation. When I saw that I wondered why I would apply a super insulation and then deliberately put a leak in it.

By applying it to the inside you get the total insulation value plus the bonus of a great vapor barrier and the isolation of the indoor wallboard from the framing.

 

[Coal Reaper]

dean at smokeless heat can show you the models he has available. if you catch him when it is still burning season, he can take you to some local installs. nice guy, knowledgeable. there is also a local source for retired propane tanks...