Cracked stone on Tribute.

[KeithO]

A few additional comments regarding non catalytic woodstoves:

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/related/woodstove.pdf (From page 9)
"Based on commercial marketing surveys there are an estimated 9.3 million cordwood stoves in use in the United States. From HPA surveys of manufacturers it is estimated that about 0.6 million of these are certified, non-catalytic cordwood stoves and about 0.4 million are certified catalytic cordwood stoves (i.e., there are about 8.3 million old conventional cordwood stoves and about 1.0 million certified cordwood stoves in use in the United States).


From http://www.burningclean.com/
"Q. “Once I have preheated my chimney, how should I operate the stove?”

A. Although all wood stoves require preheating during startup and reloading, their operation afterwards varies somewhat. Wood stoves using catalytic combustors require the monitoring of temperatures and air supply to ensure the catalyst engages at appropriate times in the combustion cycle. Generally, catalytic stoves require lower combustion temperatures in the firebox to burn cleanly. At 500-1000 degrees F., the catalyst ignites, burning the volatile gases and particulates. Non-catalytic stoves attain much higher temperatures in the combustion path before the gases and particulates burn. Always refer to your wood stove manufacturer’s operation manual and follow the instructions for your particular make and model."

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/combustortips.html
"Q. What about non-catalytic stoves? How do they compare with catalytic stoves?

A. There are a number of good non-catalytic stoves on the market, and some of them achieve clean burning that is almost as good as the clean burn that you’ll get with a catalyst. Our only reservation about these stoves is the way they are built. To meet the EPA standards and achieve truly clean burning, the non-catalytic stoves have to burn regularly at temperatures of about 1,000 degrees - i.e. the temperature that gasses and particles in the smoke will burn without a catalyst. In other words, non-catalytic stoves have to operate with very hot firebox temperatures to meet the EPA standards - much hotter than catalytic stoves. Rather than recommend specific models of non-catalytic stoves made by competitors, we offer this advice: If you are considering a purchase of one of these stoves, look carefully at the firebox and the way the inside of the stove is constructed, keeping in mind that all materials and any moving parts are subject to very high heat. If any of the materials seem to be lightweight or insubstantial, steer clear and keep looking. You will want to invest in a stove that is durable, and able to withstand high heat and heat cycling. The catalytic combustor in your stove will have to be replaced every 4-5 years. Its replacement cost (about $100) is a small price to pay for the increased efficiency, clean-burning, and peace-of-mind it offers. And, it’s much easier to replace a catalyst than a warped firebox. "

http://www.mastersweep.com/OPT.HTM
"Unless yours is a very primitive model, you'll find a baffle plate of some kind near the top of your stove. It's between the fire chamber and the flue outlet. This is where the secondary burn occurs. This is where your stove creates a HUGE percentage of the heat it delivers to you! When the secondary gasses are ignited, the internal temperature of the stove may go from 450 degree's to 1600 degree's! That is a HUGE performance increase! But, it DOES NOT mean the wood will burn up faster! Such high temperatures create a powerful vacuum inside your stove. You only need a very small intake hole, (e.g. 1/2 inch in diameter) to provide oxygen. That small intake port provides a high pressure, but very small stream of oxygen which enables you to burn your stove very hot, for a long time. By controlling the amount of oxygen that enters the stove, you prohibit the stove from burning the wood too fast. Even though it is burning much hotter, you can actually burn the wood you do use for a longer period. The amount of secondary combustion that occurs varies widely from model to model. Largely due to advances in heat extraction technology over the years. A twelve-year-old baffled airtight stove can be presumed to operate at about 40% efficiency, while many of today's EPA approved wood stoves exceed 80% efficiency. The main difference between the older wood stoves and today's wood stoves is in the upper baffle chamber, where newer techniques have been incorporated to re-burn and use the secondary exhaust gases." "*This article was paraphrased from a correspondence with Tom Oyen "The Chimney Sweep Inc." You can visit Tom's site at: http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep We acknowledge Tom's contribution with gratitude."


Frankly, I think the situation is ripe for a class action lawsuit against manufacturers of non catalytic stoves who A) Fail to adequately define (from a cause and effect viewpoint) what constitutes overfiring of the stove and B) Fails to provide the consumer with an adequate means to monitor the operation of the stove which will effectively identify operation close to or into overfire condition.

All it will take is a few scientists, some representative stoves and chimneys, data aquisition equipment for a few hundred hours and the opinion of an expert metallurgist to create a body of evidence that will demonstrate the inadequacy of existing instructions from the stove manufacturers. Relatively speaking, non catalytic stoves are in their infancy in the marketplace, as demonstrated by the EPA report. It is entirely possible that the manufacturers are well aware of the inadequacy of their user instructions, but resist changing them since the change may be seen as recognition of their inadequacy. Unfortunately, all it will take is a sufficient number of failed stoves before a trial lawyer identifies a "business opportunity".

 

[Highbeam]

Jeff may not even know he's been overfiring. His thermometer may not be accurate?

Exactly. There are two tricky ways to overfire a hearthstone.

One is the measurement of temperature. Folks have tested their rutland meters and found 50 degree errors. The realistic burn range of a soapstove is between 400 and 550 vs. the range on a steel plate stove being 400-800+ and even the meter's range of 0-900. We're trying to hold a pretty small temperature range with a measuring tool that is made for large swings. I dispute the assertion that a flue gas thermometer would be superior for the HS stove as the manufacturer has specified a high limit with a specified thermometer style and location.

The other very likely overfire method happens when you have a 550 degree soapstone stove with 3 inches of coals on the bottom and then stuff it to the gills with fresh wood for the overnight burn. You can shut the primary draft to zero and that stove is going to get hotter and hotter until the wood load passes the gas stage. Yes, it will run up at least 50 more degrees with a closed primary air. I would bet that many folks have gone to bed and their stoves just kept on getting hotter.

It is entirely allowable to void the warranty for overfire and there is evidence of overfire with Jeff's stove. I am not going to worry about running my hearthstone within the allowable range. Funny how there have been threads suggesting that the hearthstone stoves could even be run hotter, much hotter, by comparing to woodstck's limits. I don't care if Jeff was heating a sauna with his tribute, if it was overfired it was overfired.

I remain bothered by the warranty expiration claim, that's silly. We would all be happier if HS came out and said that the reason for not covering labor is due to obvious overfiring. It is not easy or pleasant for a company man with a high standard of customer service to have to make this accusation to a single customer but the damage of not making the accusation is that we all now suspect the company of being, well, sneaky. I have personally been very satisfied with the customer service and products from Hearthstone.

When I had my hearthstone's manufacturing defects repaired by a local tech I asked him about these stoves and what he's run into. The tech had a new door frame in his truck for a heritage so I know to watch for that, he had changed out stones and also entire top castings. Seems people will always overfire stoves and that was his explanation for most of the failures he had repaired. When the larger models of stone stove are overfired, the whole top casting becomes warped and sags! He mentioned no problems getting things to seal up after the repairs, I think that was a single dealer's excuse for passing up on the job.

I also want to thank Tom for contributing to this somewhat difficult thread. There is no easy or nice way to say that the stove looks to be overfired when the operator claims otherwise. We'll never really know how this happened, we weren't there and I don't think Jeff will ever really know.

When Jeff comes back I think he should be considering selling the stove as soon as possible with or without repairing it. I would never recommend any stove under 2CF for primary heating. Even in my climate.

 

[KeithO]

Highbeam, there are 2 more comments from me on this specific case.

1) Warping and cracking components is typically due to thermal shock, not necessarily due to extended operation at high temperature.

2) We have all seen the signs of classic overfiring/overtemp, wasted away burn tubes, baffles burnt through, insulation blankets glazed and shrunk, ash fused into clinker etc etc.

I don't see these signs on Jeff's stove. Perhaps if one could see it in person it may be more obvious.

We also know just how "peaky" the burn cycle of a non catalytic stove is. Particularly with well seasoned wood, there is a very sharp increase in firebox temperature after reloading, and an even sharper increase when the secondaries kick in. At that time, the soapstone may be down to 200F or less mean temperature. Once those secondaries kick in, the inner face of the soapstone may reach temperatures over 1000F while the outside is around 200F. It is these kind of thermal cycles that will crack soapstone. Cast iron will crack if the heat distribution is sufficiently uneven to generate tensile stresses, combined with the low structural strength of the material at elevated temperatures. The smaller the stove, the more frequently the cycle is repeated because of a short effective burn time.

I do believe (in the absence of the manufacturer providing a probe type thermometer positioned inside the firebox in a critical location) that the probe type flue thermometer is the best method of avoiding damage in operation for non catalytic stoves. One needs to bear in mind that the temperature in the firebox is higher than the flue temperature, which will be much higher much sooner than the stove top temperature. The laws of physics are not subject to approval or consent by stove manufacturers, politicians or stove users, so frankly I couldn't care what Hearthstone or anyone else chooses to write in their manual. All you need to do is evaluate the properties of the materials used in the firebox, then evaluate the temperatures in the firebox during a burn cycle "by the book" and the problems will immediately be obvious.

A final comment on my personal experience heating my 1300sq ft upper level last winter with a slightly larger Morso 7110. Realistically, I found the Morso undersized for my home. But it was not damaged in any way, and I was always fully aware of what I was doing, because I had the probe type flue thermometer. I simply found that to get adequate heat output I was required to reload the stove at strict 4 hour intervals (before the stove temperature dropped too low and too much of the coal bed was consumed). By frequent reloading, one is able to get the maximum amount of heat out of a small stove, without in any way impacting its reliability. This procedure is not convenient, and for many people it may not be feasible at all if they have a lengthy commute and no-one is home during the day. For all those reasons, I changed to the T5, but without the potentially disastrous financial consequences that could have befallen Jeff.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Boy, Tom, I'm still really confused about what you're saying. And let me say again, I DO NOT have anything close to an overfiring problem with this stove. I'm only trying to understand the concept here so that when I do go to buy a bigger stove, probably from HS, I will be able to interpret things correctly.

In your email to Jeff, you said, "you kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time. In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit."

In a subsequent post, you seemed to reinforce that idea by saying "Idon’t believe it is possible to run a stove consistantly in the 500-550 deg. range without repeated spikes of 600+ degrees."

But then you said in your reply to me something that seems entirely contradictory, "I don’t think you need to worry about damaging your stove if you’re burning it the way you say you are, even if you occasionally drift to 600 degs. for short periods."

And then quoted the Tribute manual (which I could probably do by heart now, I've consulted its meager instructions so frequently) "high as 500°F(260°C) on High Burn and 200-300°F(93-149°C) on low burn. Maintaining temperatures in excess of 600°F(316°C) will cause the stones to crack and other damage to the stove."

So which is it, please? Can one run the stove at 500-550 with occasional spikes over that for short periods or can't you? Your first two statements flatly stated that would damage the stove, but your last two, including the Tribute manual, say that's not a problem, only "maintaining temperatures in excess of 600" is a problem.

As for Jeff, just for the record, he stated quite clearly in at least one post that his house is 1,000 SF, not 1,400 SF.

More to the point, I'd sure like to know how anybody could possibly get the Tribute up to 600 for any length of time short of packing it with gasoline-soaked rags or something-- particularly in a large open space with only "fair" insulation and below-zero temperatures outside.

If I load mine very carefully with perfect timing with my best very dry medium-sized rock maple splits, close down the primary air at exactly the right steps and get good secondaries rolling, I can sometimes get it to 450, but that's it. I once had one 'o those spikes for maybe 10 minutes that reached 500. (I do have an interior flue and superb draft.)

I understand your skepticism about what caused his stove's problems, but it kinda strains my credulity to accept the idea that he could even have been able to run this particular stove in 600-plus overfire range for extended periods.

Somebody in this thread suggested the exact same problems can be caused by the stove getting dropped hard somewhere along the line in shipping. Especially given the issues his original dealer was having, is it absolutely out of the question that Jeff's right that he did nothing wrong and HS is right that their stove isn't flawed, but instead that it was damaged somewhere between HS and Jeff? Just askin'.

 

[jman]

I have been following this thread very carefully, I have had a HS Heritage for a little over a month now, and I do love this stove. But I can say first hand I have ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLES getting this stove to the 600* limit. And I'm not trying to get the stove that high. I wish I could level off at 4-450* but it will get 500* or a bit more regularly. I've done the dollar bill test all around both doors and the ash pan door, and all are tight as a drum. I'M hoping its just me still learning the stove and that I get better at it. I will usually reload when the stove top is around 275-300* do the let it char up for about 10 min then start backing down a little at a time for the next 5-10 min, when i get down to just about shutting the primary all the way off no secondaries going so i turn it back about half way for another 5-10 min. when they do kick in there like an inferno. I seem to get my secondaries going at about 400*
my wood has been cut split and stacked for over a year.
Sorry to high jack this thread but seems like there are some pepole following it with sum knowledge that might help me. Also I use a infer red thermo

 

[Todd]

I have been following this thread very carefully, I have had a HS Heritage for a little over a month now, and I do love this stove. But I can say first hand I have ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLES getting this stove to the 600* limit. And I'm not trying to get the stove that high. I wish I could level off at 4-450* but it will get 500* or a bit more regularly. I've done the dollar bill test all around both doors and the ash pan door, and all are tight as a drum. I'M hoping its just me still learning the stove and that I get better at it. I will usually reload when the stove top is around 275-300* do the let it char up for about 10 min then start backing down a little at a time for the next 5-10 min, when i get down to just about shutting the primary all the way off no secondaries going so i turn it back about half way for another 5-10 min. when they do kick in there like an inferno. I seem to get my secondaries going at about 400*
my wood has been cut split and stacked for over a year.
Sorry to high jack this thread but seems like there are some pepole following it with sum knowledge that might help me. Also I use a infer red thermo

How tall is your chimney? Sounds like you may have a strong draft and could use a pipe damper.

 

[jman]

chimney is 16' straight up off the top of the stove through ceiling and then roof

 

[johnnywarm]

chimney is 16' straight up off the top of the stove through ceiling and then roof

Same as i have.why can i run my F400 at 500 with no problems

 

[thechimneysweep]

Boy, Tom, I’m still really confused about what you’re saying. And let me say again, I DO NOT have anything close to an overfiring problem with this stove. I’m only trying to understand the concept here so that when I do go to buy a bigger stove, probably from HS, I will be able to interpret things correctly.

In your email to Jeff, you said, “you kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time. In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit.”

What I was trying to say, in as diplomatic a manner as possible, was that, given the questionable accuracy of stovetop thermometers and the fact that long periods of time will naturally go by when nobody is standing there monitoring the temp, I doubt anyone's ability to keep the stove just below redline all the time.

In a subsequent post, you seemed to reinforce that idea by saying “Idon’t believe it is possible to run a stove consistantly in the 500-550 deg. range without repeated spikes of 600+ degrees.”

But then you said in your reply to me something that seems entirely contradictory, “I don’t think you need to worry about damaging your stove if you’re burning it the way you say you are, even if you occasionally drift to 600 degs. for short periods.”

Gryf, you stated you run your stove at 400, with occasional spikes at 450. You don't have to worry. An occasional drift to 600 for short periods will also not likely damage your stove. Reread Hearthstone's precaution below, and you'll find the issue is "maintaining" temperatures in excess of 600 degrees. Maintaining temps over 600 is a far cry from your pattern of maintaining temps of 400-450.

And then quoted the Tribute manual (which I could probably do by heart now, I’ve consulted its meager instructions so frequently) “high as 500°F(260°C) on High Burn and 200-300°F(93-149°C) on low burn. Maintaining temperatures in excess of 600°F(316°C) will cause the stones to crack and other damage to the stove.”

So which is it, please? Can one run the stove at 500-550 with occasional spikes over that for short periods or can’t you? Your first two statements flatly stated that would damage the stove, but your last two, including the Tribute manual, say that’s not a problem, only “maintaining temperatures in excess of 600” is a problem.

Again, my opinion here is that Jeff has been maintaining temps in excess of 600 degrees. Look at what Hearthstone says will happen if you do, and what has happened to Jeff's stove.

As for Jeff, just for the record, he stated quite clearly in at least one post that his house is 1,000 SF, not 1,400 SF.

This might indicate that Jeff has a problem with accurate measurements.

More to the point, I’d sure like to know how anybody could possibly get the Tribute up to 600 for any length of time short of packing it with gasoline-soaked rags or something-- particularly in a large open space with only “fair” insulation and below-zero temperatures outside.

If I load mine very carefully with perfect timing with my best very dry medium-sized rock maple splits, close down the primary air at exactly the right steps and get good secondaries rolling, I can sometimes get it to 450, but that’s it. I once had one ‘o those spikes for maybe 10 minutes that reached 500. (I do have an interior flue and superb draft.)

I understand your skepticism about what caused his stove’s problems, but it kinda strains my credulity to accept the idea that he could even have been able to run this particular stove in 600-plus overfire range for extended periods.

Try opening your draft control and stoking your stove until your house gets uncomfortably hot in sub-zero weather with 47 mph wind gusts. On second thought, don't try that.

Somebody in this thread suggested the exact same problems can be caused by the stove getting dropped hard somewhere along the line in shipping. Especially given the issues his original dealer was having, is it absolutely out of the question that Jeff’s right that he did nothing wrong and HS is right that their stove isn’t flawed, but instead that it was damaged somewhere between HS and Jeff? Just askin’.

First, a stove that's been dropped off a truck would be a freight claim issue against the delivering carrier, not a warranty issue with the manufacturer. Second, the cracked stone is clearly visible even coated with ash, and would have been pretty hard to miss when brand-new. Third, dropping a stove hard enough to crack a stone and a casting located in different parts of the stove would have surely broken the glass and caused other damage. Fourth, dropping a stove can't warp the door.

 

[pyro68]

Jman, you may want to have the draft checked on your chimney. (draft meter) we are running a Heritage w/ approx 20' of chim, can get great burn times with oak & other hardwoods. A friend of mine lives about 4 miles away, same stove, has higher surface temps and less burn times. He checked his draft and ended up putting a damper in the pipe, much better for him. I would never recommend a damper for a new stove unless the draft has been verified. The cases needing a damper are few and far inbetween around here, but we have seen some.

 

[KeithO]

I might make an analogy to try to put my earlier comments in perspective. Imagine that when you purchase a new car, the instructions told you to verify proper operation and engine status by measuring the temperature of the hood. We all know that to keep your engine alive, you need to have coolant and engine oil, and maintain the levels of both of these fluids as well as track oil pressure and coolant temperature.

In the case of a non catalytic stove, failure by overheating is caused primarily by the heat generated through secondary combustion. If one blanked off the air inlet for the secondary air system, one would find that it is well nigh impossible to overfire the stove. Highest temperatures would be reached with a fully open primary air control, and reducing the temperature would simply require closing the primary air control. This scenario apparently applies to over 80% of the cordwood stoves in use, which pre-date the EPA regulations.

The picture with an EPA certified non catalytic stove looks quite different. First of all, the user has control over only 1 air intake, the primary air and that control has a permanent stop that prevents the user from fully closing the primary air. The secondary air intake in most cases cannot be closed by the user at all. Some stoves have a linkage that adjusts the secondary air as a proportion of the primary air, but the fact remains that with the primary air fully closed, both the primary and secondary air inlets are still open a substantial amount. For many stoves, the secondary air inlet is fixed and permanently open.

So take a typical operating scenario in a cold climate where draft can be expected to be high through the combination of low outside temperature, tall chimney (steep snow shedding roofs) and relatively high indoor temperature. The user loads up the stove with a fresh bunch of splits, opens the primary air to get the load charred and then closes the primary air intake to the "operational" position. Once secondary combustion kicks in, temperatures below the baffle may rise to well over 1000F possibly up to the 1400F range. This high temperature transfers to the chimney (knocked down a bit by heat transfer above the baffle and losses in the stovepipe) which may reach 800-900F. This high temperature creates a powerful draft. The draft acts against any point at which air can enter the stove, including 1) primary air intake, 2) Airwash air intake on the front of the stove, typically fixed opening, 3) Typically fixed secondary air inlet.

If the flue temperature were now to reach a critical high level (assuming the user has a probe style thermometer in the flue) what options does he have to control the situation ? He only has 1 lever to control the stove, the primary air control. What you will find is that fully closing the primary air control has the effect of actually RAISING the flue gas temperature (and by deduction - the firebox temperature). Why is that ? Its simple, by closing the primary air, the draft (provided by the chimney and with no user controls) will simply draw MORE air in through remaining fixed openings, being secondary air inlet and air wash inlet. Lets not forget the fixed "uncloseable" portion of the primary air intake. In a situation where the wood is releasing massive amounts of volatiles, the addition of more superheated secondary air is a sure way to drive temperatures higher. Whether or not the stove temperature declines from this point or stay "pegged" depends primarily on whether the coal bed continues to receive sufficient oxygen to continue "cooking off" the volatiles from the load of wood.

My T5 would emphatically stay "pegged" at 1000F flue gas or more until the volatiles in the wood were exhausted. The secondary air inlet is hidden under a welded in place cover, preventing even "emergency" action by blocking this inlet with something non combustible like aluminum foil. For this reason, I cut off the cover so that the inlet can be plugged if needed. I have in fact resorted to this measure on a few occasions, notwithstanding the fact that I have blanked off the air wash intake and reduced the "fixed" minimum primary intake by more than 80%. Occasionally one will simply have a highly volatile load of wood, combined with a hot coal bed and high draft conditions that defeat the available controls.

Many will suggest fitting a damper into the stove pipe, and I am sure it would improve control of the chimney draft, but the question is: If a damper is a safety (and durability) critical requirement on a stove like the T5, why does it not come from the factory with one ? It seems as if the EPA certification process is totally divorced from reality and they have to share equally in the blame for the ridiculous situation we have with uncontrollable non catalytic stoves. By fitting a stack damper, one is providing the stove user with a giant wrench to completely trash any concept of compliance with the EPA certification. I don't see any difference to having adjustable stops on the air intakes on the stove and fitting stack dampers, except for the fact that a stack damper makes chimney sweeping more difficult. Interestingly, it appears that stove manufacturers and the EPA are quite happy to "look the other way" regarding this obvious problem. Furthermore, the certification process actively encourages this condition by emphasizing emissions testing under low draft conditions. It should be a mandatory requirement to have to pass both low draft and high draft testing, while maintaining control of the appliance.

 

[Highbeam]

Great post Keith. You get man points for having the nerve to "cut-off" parts of a nice new T5. This info is great and shouldn't be hidden in with a thread about a hearthstone specific problem. The large majority of folks on this site are burning non-cat EPA stoves even if the large majority of burners are burning non-cat airtights.

 

[karri0n]

First off, This is an excellent thread. I extend quite a bit of gratitude to Tom for being willing to research this for someone who isn't even a customer of his, and being willing to do a considerable amount of legwork for something that isn't going to net him a shred of profit. That being said, I can't say for sure that Jeff did not overfire his stove, nor can I say with any certainty that he did. What I HAVE learned, however, is that a Hearthstone Tribute can sustain a frightening amount of damage from being overfired in such a way that a normal user may not even notice. I've had my cast iron stove in an extremely overfired condition in which it was visible in bright lighting to be glowing red on the entire stovetop, as well as running it for half a season in a condition below this, but more than likely still overfired, and verified that the stove did not take any signifigant damage from these conditions. (to be fair, I was NOT the purchaser of the stove, and the landlord never told me anything about it. The previous tenants [read: 12 different sets of tenants] of the house probably ran the thing ragged, as the handle for the primary was missing, which is why I was ignorant to its existence. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one to have overfired it quite a bit.) Not having burned one, I can't say for sure, but due to the relatively small size, I would think the thermal mass that gives the Hearthstone its HeatLife™ is really not worth it for how finnicky the stoves seem to be regarding overfiring. I was considering an Equinox at a later date, but I think I'll stick with cast or steel, considering I'd like to be able to have the wife or kids run the stove when I'm at work without worrying it's gonna explode on me because it was 50 degrees below redline.

 

[BrotherBart]

It seems as if the EPA certification process is totally divorced from reality and they have to share equally in the blame for the ridiculous situation we have with uncontrollable non catalytic stoves.

Amen brother. We need to start a thread on this. All three of my EPA stoves are uncontrollable, by definition, in my opinion. More designed in air leaks than a Swiss cheese wheel.

 

[Pagey]

Excellent post, Keith. You raise some very valid points. I find the lack of (total) control on my stove to be hard on the nerves at time, especially in an overdraft situation.

 

[karri0n]

I've never had very many control issues with my EPA stove, but I've also never had perfect wood. I do like the points you raise, though, and I've seen plenty of posts from people who have trouble controlling the stove when the secondary air goes a little crazy.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Thanks for your patience in continuing to revisit this, Tom.

First off, for at least the third time, I Am Not Worried About Overfiring My Tribute. Not. Not at all. Never. I couldn't if I tried. No way. No How. Nyet.

My concern-- and continuing confusion-- is over the general principle you're presenting about what constitutes overfiring, but at this point I just give up.

Let me be clear that despite my grumbles about this and that, I have great respect for HS and for its dealers I've had some contact with. I bought my stove secondhand from neighbors, yet the local dealer and his staff have gone out of their way to help me with the (relatively minor) problems I have had. And I have great admiration for your willingness to step into Jeff's situation and help out, as well as respond to pestering from folks like me.

 

[wellbuilt home]

First off, This is an excellent thread. I extend quite a bit of gratitude to Tom for being willing to research this for someone who isn't even a customer of his, and being willing to do a considerable amount of legwork for something that isn't going to net him a shred of profit. That being said, I can't say for sure that Jeff did not overfire his stove, nor can I say with any certainty that he did. What I HAVE learned, however, is that a Hearthstone Tribute can sustain a frightening amount of damage from being overfired in such a way that a normal user may not even notice. I've had my cast iron stove in an extremely overfired condition in which it was visible in bright lighting to be glowing red on the entire stovetop, as well as running it for half a season in a condition below this, but more than likely still overfired, and verified that the stove did not take any signifigant damage from these conditions. (to be fair, I was NOT the purchaser of the stove, and the landlord never told me anything about it. The previous tenants [read: 12 different sets of tenants] of the house probably ran the thing ragged, as the handle for the primary was missing, which is why I was ignorant to its existence. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one to have overfired it quite a bit.) Not having burned one, I can't say for sure, but due to the relatively small size, I would think the thermal mass that gives the Hearthstone its HeatLife™ is really not worth it for how finnicky the stoves seem to be regarding overfiring. I was considering an Equinox at a later date, but I think I'll stick with cast or steel, considering I'd like to be able to have the wife or kids run the stove when I'm at work without worrying it's gonna explode on me because it was 50 degrees below redline.

I agree , I have used the older HS1 and liked it we never had a gauge for temp .It just burned 24/7 since 1984 and is still going . When the secondary burn kicks in the EQ can get away from you easy . With out a flue damper there is no way to stop it because the air cant be turned off 100%. I liked my VCDW extra large stove and did not have any problems with it until my son over fired it last year ,It was 15years old . HS needs to make there directions much more clear . I also think the stove needs to be more user friendly , and a damper should be required on the stoves as a safety . John

 

[jeffman3]

Wow! Allot can happen when you leave for a few days. First off I want the thank Tom for looking into the problem, and the thread, and taking the time to interject himself into this situation. Thank you Tom.

As to thrashing my integrity on the open forum, I am not only offended, but dumb founded. I verified the thermometer before ever firing the stove. The placement is as per the manual. I have run the stove as directed in the manual, and it absolutely has never seen the up side of 550*, despite the assertion you have made. I have run the stove at 500* on occasion, with a temp spike to 550* once or twice, but the normal operating temp is 400*, to 450*, or so. If Hearthstone needs to change there over-fire condition, then they need to do so, but I have fallowed their guidelines to the letter, and stayed within their stated limits, as per Hearthstone Technical Bulletin #21. Publication Date Sept. 1 2006, and the manual.

I agree that the damage to the stove is indeed unusual, that's why I needed some help with the warranty claim. I am a reasonably intelligent and conscientious person, and a person of very high integrity. I am offended that my integrity has been attacked on this matter in the open forum. If Tom wanted to communicate his distrust of me, That's fine, but to call me a bold faced liar in the open forum is, in my mind, not just offensive, but just wrong! I have relayed the information here-in as accurately as I could, and have been besmirched as a result.

Tom you lost a sale . I was planning to order a stove from you this next summer, or when I could get the money together. Your choice to smear my integrity, and my good name here, cost you a sale. I am a good, and honorable person, despite your assertion to the contrary.

To those that spoke up to help defend me, my integrity, and my position, I thank you, and I will post up the results of this situation, when I get the situation resolved, with Hearthstone, one way or the other.

 

[wellbuilt home]

Good luck Jeff.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Jeff, your integrity was never in question, at least not by me. As I see it, you needed the maximum heat your Tribute could produce, and were doing your best to run your stove below redline.

However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed, coupled with the considerable evidence of overfiring in your descriptions and photos of the stove, I sincerely believe your stove has been overfired.

I'm sorry you took my comments the way you did, but Jeff, you're the one who PM'd me and asked me to get involved here.

 

[KeithO]

Jeff, whatever the outcome, please get one of these and use it : http://www.northlineexpress.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5CN-3-39

You will find (after some initial verification) that you never need a stovetop thermometer again, and you may be shocked at what was going on inside your stove previously.

Keith

 

[Todd]

However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed,

This is exactlly why I load up my stove a couple hours before bedtime. I've awakened a couple times and go look at the stove and had readings of 725! Luckily no warpage or cracked stones.

 

[BrotherBart]

This is exactlly why I load up my stove a couple hours before bedtime.

You too huh? I was beginning to think I was the only one that does that.

 

[jeffman3]

Jeff, your integrity was never in question, at least not by me. As I see it, you needed the maximum heat your Tribute could produce, and were doing your best to run your stove below redline.

However, given the notorious inaccuracy of stove thermometers and the fact that a stove that has been packed for an all-night burn will often continue to rise in temperature after you've gone to bed, coupled with the considerable evidence of overfiring in your descriptions and photos of the stove, I sincerely believe your stove has been overfire.

I'm sorry you took my comments the way you did, but Jeff, you're the one who PM'd me and asked me to get involved here.

The thermometer was verified to be accurate before I did my break in fires. It actually reads high not low) You stated that the stove has been repeatedly run at over 600*, that is absolutely not true. This stove has never been over 550*, and only once or twice at that. I always wait till the temp is stable or dropping before going to bed. I did ask for your advise, given the unusual damage my stove has suffered. I asked for your opinion on how to make it safe to provide heat for my family, and I did all this with a Private Message. You decided to make the statement in the open forum that I intentionally, and purposefully, burn my stove in excess of the guidelines laid out in the owners manual, and the Tech bulletin I referenced. That is untrue, I have fallowed the manual to the letter, and by Hearthstones definition, this stove has not been over-fired. Perhaps they need to rewrite the definition to read "If we think it was run to hot, we will void the warranty" But they state specific conditions, vague as they may be, and my stove has never exceeded them.

If this is over-fire, then Hearthstone has misrepresented the over-fire condition in the tech bulletin, and the manual, as this stove has never exceeded the limits there in, measured by the means they recommend in the manual.

Tom, I do thank you for your time, and consideration of this problem, but you have made some statements about me, that are not true, in respect of how I burn my stove.