Cracked tribute

[ftjhs2]

It was suggested that I start a new thread for this discussion.

Here is a reply to my initial post from Ed to get things started:
akburner - how much Alaskan square footage are you trying to heat with that tiny stove? Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn’t mean you didn’t overfire it. I’m not saying you run your stove wrong - but you seem to indicate you have a crack in it with “leaking creosote”?? why not share some of the specifics of your situation, setup, and operating methods in a new thread and see if we can help.

I'm heating about 500 square feet with this stove. It keeps up fine even at -50F, although it takes a long time to raise the temperature in the house when it is that cold outside. As for setup, this is a one story place, so the stack is about 12', straight shot. I've never had it get out of control. I'm burning burch that was cut green last May, split and stacked all summer. I generally start the stove morning and night, get a few medium splits going, and then load it up before I go to work and when I go to bed, air inlet closed all the way. When I'm heating the house up I burn it with the inlet open with a few splits at a time. When at home I run it with less wood and more air. It's basically always warm, but won't hold a 'fire' all night. I almost never run out of coals though. The crack is on the lower stone on the right side and I noticed it because creosote is leaking out the length of it down the side of the stove. I have a thermometer on the stack that generally reads between 400-500F, but never goes above 400F on the center stone when burning wide open.

Could you elaborate on how I may be overfiring if the center stone never gets much over 400F? From my understanding of the instructions 600F was the danger zone, so I figured I was well within specs.

Hopefully this helps descibe the situation a little better. If I'm overfiring this stove, then I'd like to know. I just didn't even think it was possible given the temps I observe and the ability to control it even with a full load. I suspect that I just got a stone with a defect, but perhaps not. I would appreciate any insights.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Have you been in contact with your dealer yet about this?

I'm also a Tribute owner, and I can testify how difficult it is to overfire this stove. I rarely can get it over 450, and the only time it went over 500 was with a packed load of well-dried beech and black birch and the primary air wide open. I refuse to believe the one poster's statement in your earlier thread that the stove can be "overfired" at 400 degrees. If that's the case, Hearthstone is guilty of gross fraud, and I just don't believe it. I'm sure you've just got a faulty piece of stone, and although that's not common, it's certainly not unheard of. Hearthstone has a pretty soild warranty, and they should arrange to send somebody out to replace the stone at no cost to you.

Please keep us posted.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Have you been in contact with your dealer yet about this?

I'm also a Tribute owner, and I can testify how difficult it is to overfire this stove. I rarely can get it over 450, and the only time it went over 500 was with a packed load of well-dried beech and black birch and the primary air wide open. I refuse to believe the one poster's statement in your earlier thread that the stove can be "overfired" at 400 degrees. If that's the case, Hearthstone is guilty of gross fraud, and I just don't believe it. I'm sure you've just got a faulty piece of stone, and although that's not common, it's certainly not unheard of. Hearthstone has a pretty soild warranty, and they should arrange to send somebody out to replace the stone at no cost to you.

Please keep us posted.

Ditto here.......I have found it very difficult to get it over 500 degrees for our Tribute also.
I am also measuring temp. in the same location as you are. I have also been corresponding w/
several other Tribute owners, and they haven't been experiencing problems like this.....

You mentioned that you pack your stove full before going to work. Is there anyone present to
monitor the temp while you are away?? Could it be running a bit hot then?? Just some questions...

 

[gyrfalcon]

Have you been in contact with your dealer yet about this?

I'm also a Tribute owner, and I can testify how difficult it is to overfire this stove. I rarely can get it over 450, and the only time it went over 500 was with a packed load of well-dried beech and black birch and the primary air wide open. I refuse to believe the one poster's statement in your earlier thread that the stove can be "overfired" at 400 degrees. If that's the case, Hearthstone is guilty of gross fraud, and I just don't believe it. I'm sure you've just got a faulty piece of stone, and although that's not common, it's certainly not unheard of. Hearthstone has a pretty soild warranty, and they should arrange to send somebody out to replace the stone at no cost to you.

Please keep us posted.

Ditto here.......I have found it very difficult to get it over 500 degrees for our Tribute also.
I am also measuring temp. in the same location as you are. I have also been corresponding w/
several other Tribute owners, and they haven't been experiencing problems like this.....

You mentioned that you pack your stove full before going to work. Is there anyone present to
monitor the temp while you are away?? Could it be running a bit hot then?? Just some questions...

akburner may do that, but I don't since I work from a home office, but it doesn't seem likely if the primary's set low enough for that long of a burn time. If I'm going to be away for a long time during the day, I set the stove up the way I do for overnight for a longer slower burn.

 

[edthedawg]

Not sure if Tom's post (#59 in jeffman's "cracked tribute" thread) was fully read and understood, but that's decades of experience speaking to us - I'm highly inclined to agree w/ his expertise vs. one-off observations.

Here’s my take: based upon your previous posts, you’ve heated your 1,000 sq.ft. house in SW NE toasty warm through a December when your low temp was -16f, and your average low temp was -6f. The little Tribute simply isn’t built for that kind of heat output. Have a look at our woodstove comparison page at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm , and you’ll see that the Tribute is rated to heat 600-1300 sq.ft.... in your climate, I think even 600 sq.ft. would be a stretch (please read the discussion at the bottom of the page.)

Very occasionally, a Hearthstone part will go bad and require warranty replacement, but this is a rare occurrence indeed. When a door warps, a top casting cracks AND a stone cracks all the way through in the same stove, it leaves no doubt in my mind that the stove has been consistantly overfired. I have read your reports that you have kept your stovetop at 500-550 so as not to hit Hearthstone’s 600 deg. ceiling, but this is like having a car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and driving it at 5,500 all the time. In other words, an upper limit warning is not an invitation to habitually run just short of that limit.

As cold as it gets where you are, you really should have bought a larger stove.

That's just to discuss the concept of unintentionally overfiring a small stove without being aware it's happening. In AK's case, he's heating smaller square footage with a much greater outside ambient temp to overcome, and with arguably less visible distress to the stove - I'd say it's roughly a wash, all things considered, and Tom's advice stands to have some fairly parallel weight in this instance. You also can't trust little Rutland stovetop thermometers worth a damn all the time. I'm ok w/ mine because I've verified the readings, and I do so regularly.

Not that anyone wants to hear this, because it'll touch off another fit of "How come Hearthstone doesn't warn us of this??" posts, but this is a broken sidewall stone, and the sidewall temps can be different from stovetop temps. Wood species, seasoning, and loading style, can have an effect. I find the right sidewall of the Heritage to consistently be a very hot area.

Just from the specifics now given here, I'm reading that the reported flue and stovetop temps sound ok but we don't know what's going on during the day, marginally seasoned wood is being burnt and - this is completely inexplicable to me - "creosote is leaking ... down the side of the stove". I can't conceive of what one would have to do to create such a situation. If anything, that points to possibly over-cool firing and makes me wonder what the flue condition is...

I'll set back and listen to some others chime in - got a deadline to push this week so it'll be good to hear more input.

 

[gyrfalcon]

I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but if the only instructions Hearthstone gives stove owners about overfiring is not to run it over 600 and you don't even ever touch 600 once -- or even close to it -- any damage to the stove from "overfiring" that occurs below its overfire specification is Hearthstone's fault, not the stove user's. Hearthstone specifies the temperatures cited are as measured from the top center stone, not somewhere on the side. Can we not assume Hearthstone knows very well those stones get hotter than the top and has taken that into consideration in the instructions it gives in the manual? They've been making great stoves for quite a few years now and I think it's safe to say they most likely know what they're doing.

If I recall the OP's description in the earlier thread, he's got a very well insulated house and he's only heating 500 feet in a one-story home. -50 is a killer, but he says it takes a long time to warm the room up and at -50 he's happy he can maintain a temp of 68. That is totally compatible with my experience. I'm heating a substantially larger open area on the first floor of a not very well insulated 2-story home, and at -20, the stove keeps me somewhere in the chilly 60s with an operating temperature of 450. Because I'm home all day and monitor the stove constantly (and have also verified my Rutland's accuracy), there's zero question about the stove "running away" when I'm not looking.

Ed, seems to me there've been an awful lot of contortions on this to find a way to blame the owners for these problems. If we take the owner at his word for the way he's been running his stove, then it's simply unconscionable to try to blame him for the damage when he's following the manufacturer's instructions. If the real issue is you think the owner isn't telling the truth about what he's been doing, then say so. Otherwise, it's not only blaming the victim but it's freaking out those of us who haven't had problems yet and desperately want not to have them but feel like the rug is being pulled out from under us.

 

[karri0n]

I'm also of the inclination that Hearthsone should have a very specific definition of "overfiring" written in their warranty documentation, if simply measuring the center top stone below 600 is not accurate enough. If the only definition given in the warranty documentation is this, and I'm confident it was never done, and Hearthstone failed to honor the warranty due to overfiring, I would be on the phone with a lawyer right away. I doubt hearthstone would have a leg to stand on, if that was the only stipulation in the warranty in regards to misuse and overfiring.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm fairly certain that most stove manufacturers do NOT have a definition of overfiring other than when the stove glows red. Yet all of them void your warranty for doing so. Hearthstone is one of the few folks that do give a max burn temp even though it appears that you aren't safe running continuously at just under that temp.

Hey, I'm to the point where I check my stones for cracks. I think it is possible due to the natural faults in the stone, the fragile nature of the stone when throwing logs in, and even the hot/cold cycles that these stones can crack. I have a campfire pit with a ring of rocks and those rocks have cracked too. No cracks in my stones yet after over 10 cords in two seasons! It works great.

The tribute at 1.2CF firebox is too small for 24/7 heating. The heritage is barely big enough. It appears that the people using these tiny stoves for 24/7 heating are the only ones cracking them.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Adding another mix to things a stove operator can do to damage their stove -

Jamming or thowing large pieces of wood into their stove, especially if it was
already hot. From what I understand, soapstone is not as forgiving at metal
when it comes to this kind of treatment. And, once a crack starts, it is likely
to increase with repeated "hits" in the same spot.

The only reason I bring this up is that it appears this cracking problem is not as evident
on larger models that have larger, cord-sized fireboxes (less cramming).
The Tribute has a rather small firebox - you can't fit wood that is much over 16".

 

[Highbeam]

The heritage has a full sized "bash plate" on the far side of the stove to absorb impact from log loading. Does the tribute have a bash plate to distribute the log hits? Being a front loader only I would think that it would be easier to gently load the stove.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Adding another mix to things a stove operator can do to damage their stove -

Jamming or thowing large pieces of wood into their stove, especially if it was
already hot. From what I understand, soapstone is not as forgiving at metal
when it comes to this kind of treatment. And, once a crack starts, it is likely
to increase with repeated "hits" in the same spot.

The only reason I bring this up is that it appears this cracking problem is not as evident
on larger models that have larger, cord-sized fireboxes (less cramming).
The Tribute has a rather small firebox - you can't fit wood that is much over 16".

Much over 16? Then your Tribute is larger than mine. Mine won't take 16 under any circumstances, and 15 only if it's very thin and stuck in catty-corner from top back to bottom front.

 

[gyrfalcon]

The heritage has a full sized "bash plate" on the far side of the stove to absorb impact from log loading. Does the tribute have a bash plate to distribute the log hits? Being a front loader only I would think that it would be easier to gently load the stove.

No "bash plate," but on a front loader, it's not needed. The way the Tribute is built, you'd have to be doing it on purpose to bash the sides or back. The secondary tubes on the top are another story, but that's not at issue here.

 

[ftjhs2]

I'll do my best to address all the comments. Please keep them coming, I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong.

Ed: I realize my wood isn't ideal, but it's what I have access to. I could buy some that might be drier, but it's $250-300 a cord here. I'm waiting till spring to cut more myself, and hopefully I'll have time to get in 2 years worth this time. If anything, I would think this would help prevent an overfire situation. No one is here to watch the stove while I'm at work, however, I do the same setup as I do at night. I've gotten up in the middle of the night many times and the stove was just cooking along slowly. I have no reason to think it would be any different any other time. The air control is always shut 100% when in bed or at work. I think the creosote can be explained by the warmer temps lately (10-20F) and me trying not to cook myself out of the house. I've had a couple of smoldering fires lately and I suspect a bit of creosote built up enough on the wall to leak out. Otherwise I would never have noticed the crack. Usually build-up isn't a problem as I burn hot at least once a day during startup, and generally hot most of the winter. Your mention of different temps on different stones still bothers me a bit. If they tell us the test is the temp of the top stone, why would I check all the others and what should I make of different measurements? HS must have known that the top is cooler than the sides when they gave their recommendation for monitoring. If a different location or multiple locations for sensors is required, they should have told me that and I would have done it. I don't think users should be blamed if they are well below published recommendations and stones break.

Highbeam: I don't understand your argument that a Tribute can't be used for daily heating just because it is small. If that's the case, they should put a warning on the label that the stove is for decoration only . Are you implying that keeping the stove running constantly stresses the stones more? These things have the same stones as the larger stoves, so I don't know why they could be burned 24/7 and the tribute can't. The tribute has actually worked great for 24/7 heating for me. I have burned less than 40 gallons of oil all winter, mainly during trips away from home, and we've had a longer winter than normal. I've put about 4 cords through this little guy since September.

Rob and gyrfalcon: "Bashing" is highly unlikely. I agree with gyrfalcon that you probably couldn't 'throw' a piece of wood in this thing if you tried. However, I have been more careful than I would with an iron stove, but breakage due to loading is way down on my list of possibilities. I load it full twice a day, but I'm not using a mallet to get the pieces in.

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I dislike this stove, I love it, but if I can't burn it without it cracking apart, what's the point? I even bought a Mansfield for my parents, but now I'm worried they're going to have trouble with it.

Alright guys, your turn(s), let me have the next round.

 

[gyrfalcon]

You're quite right that with less seasoned wood, you're going to get lower stove temps, not higher ones.

Agree with you entirely about the 24/7 business. It's ludicrous to say this stove can't or shouldn't be run 24/7, like any other stove on the planet, as long as you're staying below what the manufacturer's instructions say is the overfire range.

BTW, if you haven't checked your thermometer in your oven, you might want to do that just to get that idea out of the way.

Have you contacted your dealer yet?

 

[ftjhs2]

Gyrfalcon: Just took the thermometer out of the oven and if anything it reads a bit high.

I haven't contacted the dealer yet because I am heading out of town soon for work and won't be around to deal with it. I also wanted to get some info here before I call them.

 

[karri0n]

Re: the Mansfield for your parents:

I've only ever seen threads on this forum about cracked stones on Tributes. Not sure why the Tribute specifically, maybe the lower mass and smaller firebox while still requiring the ~1200* temps for secondary combustion leads to a bit more extreme conditions due to the stones being in much more close quarters to the flames? In any case, I've not heard of anyone cracking their Mansfield or Equinox. I'd imagine it could be done with the 500+ degree stove and a 5 gallon bucket of water, or a hammer of some type, but under normal operating conditions I have yet to see someone with a complaint of a stone cracked through on any stove other than a Tribute.

 

[Highbeam]

The reason that I would not use this stove for 24/7 service is that the 1.2 CF firebox is about as tiny, miniature, and decorative as they come. It can only hold 24lbs of hardwood and is actually rated for a 16" log by Hearthstone. Even Hearthstone only rates this stove for a 7 hour burn and like all manufacturers this is being optimistic.

You're burning softwood in AK as primary heat and while I may be ludicrous for thinking so, I think your dealer did you a disservice for selling you that tiny stove.

 

[karri0n]

heating 500 sq. feet mind you, but in AK, I agree the tribute is pretty small.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

FWIW, we have lots of tributes out in the field and we havent had any reports of stones cracking. We have however, had stones crack on just about every other stove they sell. Some on the front where the latch is located. Most on the sides where they take a good beating, and some on the top. All of these cases where rulled natural fissure points by hearthstone, and none have ever been replaced under warranty. Also, none of the cracks you could see daylight through. IF you dont see daylight, there really isnt going to be a performance issue. If you can see light through it, then i would guess that hearthstone would back it. We have over a 1000 hearthstones in the field, i have yet to see a crack that you can see light through. As far as running the little stove 24/7. I think you can run just about any qualilty stove 24/7 as long as it being run properly. The Tribute IMO can run as many consecutive short hot fires as you like, as long as your burning cord wood at the proper temps.

 

[gyrfalcon]

FWIW, we have lots of tributes out in the field and we havent had any reports of stones cracking. We have however, had stones crack on just about every other stove they sell. Some on the front where the latch is located. Most on the sides where they take a good beating, and some on the top. All of these cases where rulled natural fissure points by hearthstone, and none have ever been replaced under warranty. Also, none of the cracks you could see daylight through. IF you dont see daylight, there really isnt going to be a performance issue. If you can see light through it, then i would guess that hearthstone would back it. We have over a 1000 hearthstones in the field, i have yet to see a crack that you can see light through. As far as running the little stove 24/7. I think you can run just about any qualilty stove 24/7 as long as it being run properly. The Tribute IMO can run as many consecutive short hot fires as you like, as long as your burning cord wood at the proper temps.

Thank you for injecting some sense and some facts into this issue. The idea that you shouldn't use the Tribute for 24/7 heating just because it's small seems to me absurd. To dismiss it as simply "decorative" as the poster above did is nonsense. It's a terrific little heater for a small space or moderate climates.

Very good to hear the statistics on the cracked stone issue, as well. Hearthstone (and I believe Woodstock, as well) does say clearly that the stones can develop cracks under normal operating conditions, but that, as you say, unless it's a big wide crack you can see through, the crack is perfectly OK and doesn't in any way impact the stove.

The OP does appear to have a more serious crack if stuff is leaking through it, though, so I'm eager to hear what his dealer and/or Hearthstone have to say about it when he has a chance to contact them.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

It sound's like he has more issues then a cracked stove if there is gasses and smoke leaking through! shouldnt the stove be under the negative pressure of the chimney?

Ok i will stop guestimating and read every post here....

 

[Highbeam]

I apologize for your confusion gyr, I did not say that you can't or shouldn't run this stove 24/7, I am saying that it is one of the worst choices of the entire HS lineup to use as a 24/7 heater using softwood in AK and I would not recommend that stove.

It is too bad that your ownership bias is so strong that you are jumping to the conclusion that I am saying that you "can't" burn 24/7. Of course you CAN burn this 24/7, you can burn any stove 24/7. It's like using a geo metro to haul 6 cords of firewood every year.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I apologize for your confusion gyr, I did not say that you can't or shouldn't run this stove 24/7, I am saying that it is one of the worst choices of the entire HS lineup to use as a 24/7 heater using softwood in AK and I would not recommend that stove.

It is too bad that your ownership bias is so strong that you are jumping to the conclusion that I am saying that you "can't" burn 24/7. Of course you CAN burn this 24/7, you can burn any stove 24/7. It's like using a geo metro to haul 6 cords of firewood every year.

I would agree with this, i would NEVER sell a tribute in a situtaiton that the homeowner needs a 24/7 heater, only becasue its more of a pain to maintain the fire in a stove of this size. I rarely recommend anything less then a 2.5 cf box for 24/7 heating, reguardless of the size of the space being heated.

 

[gyrfalcon]

I apologize for your confusion gyr, I did not say that you can't or shouldn't run this stove 24/7, I am saying that it is one of the worst choices of the entire HS lineup to use as a 24/7 heater using softwood in AK and I would not recommend that stove.

It is too bad that your ownership bias is so strong that you are jumping to the conclusion that I am saying that you "can't" burn 24/7. Of course you CAN burn this 24/7, you can burn any stove 24/7. It's like using a geo metro to haul 6 cords of firewood every year.

I jumped to the conclusion, did I? Here's what you said.

"The tribute at 1.2CF firebox is too small for 24/7 heating. The heritage is barely big enough. It appears that the people using these tiny stoves for 24/7 heating are the only ones cracking them."

If you didn't actually mean what you typed, fine. But don't tell me I "jumped" to a conclusion here.

And kindly don't accuse me of "ownership bias," either, or I'm going to suggest you have a size bias. I would be happy to run down the disadvantages of owning tihs stove in considerable detail, and also deliver a rant about the door and doorframe problems I'm having. But none of that is relevant to the issue in this thread, which is whether the OP has somehow caused his own problems by using the stove incorrectly or inappropriately, which is what you were suggesting. If it keeps his small and well-insulated space warm enough for his needs without either running into overfire range or giving him what he feels is an undue burden of having to load it up too frequently, I'd say he's got a good match of stove.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Can we get a photo of the crack? or a link if its already posed somewhere? Photos of cracks are best taken on the inside of the stove with a flashlight sitting on top of the crack, or the outside, with a light inside the stove in a low lit room.