Honestly I don't even want to get involved in codes and permits or any of that, think ill just try a few more ideas with the fans it's not worth the hassle...
Custom Woodstove Blower?
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Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
I am curious if your national building codes supersede local state or regional codes. It's the exact opposite here. I wonder if begreen has an answer for that?
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Ok, I'm no longer expecting begreen to answer the question. But does anybody know if US national building codes apply universally in ever location in the USA? Or is it like it is here in Canada where the national building codes are used as a reference or guideline, and get superseded by local building codes.
Anybody?
Anybody?
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
OK, I posted the same question in another US forum, and somebody who actually knows what they were talking about gave me an answer:
So the short answer is; building codes are different for every region in the US, no different than Canada.
Firestops between floors, in particular basement to main floor have been the rule for awhile. I think most of the US goes by IBC and International Fire Code. Not sure about Canada.
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Can you produce that code rule and it's application to single family dwellings?
I know it applies to multi-family dwellings like duplexes and apartments, and commercial buildings and offices, but I've never seen it applied to living spaces between rooms of residential homes.
Fire stops mean fireproofs barriers between floors and wall and generally also include fireproof doors separating the different areas. In single family residential homes one story is often open to the next in the form of lofts, stairwells and laundry chutes, and floor levels are often unprotected by fireproof material between floors (eg. open floor joists in unfinished basements, wood paneling ceilings, etc), and certainly fireproof doors are unheard of in residential homes. Having a code that requires installing fusible vents between floors, without fireproofing, next to an open stairwell, or a laundry chute, or under an open loft seems utterly ridiculous.
In my internet searches I can find nothing to support your claim about codes for fusible link vents in single family homes, but I can find lot of links with people describing how to go about installing vents between floors, but no mention of fusible links vents.
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
There was a lot more links I could have added, but you get the idea. And all the links I found seemed to be US source web pages.
However, show me the code where fusible links are required in those areas and I'll become a believer.
Is it possible you are mistaken?
Hey Randy. Can you search on old threads here? This has been asked and answered before I think. If you can't find it I will look but not tonight. Celebrations are taking over.
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Thanks Begreen.
I did actually do a lot of searching on this site and found many many threads on the issue, also a lot of my Google searches linked to threads on this site. Problem was they inevitably were threads containing posts by you referring to fusible links vents saying that they were required by code in residential homes, but in none of the threads could I find any outside links backing up that claim.
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that fusible link vents would never be of any benefit, certainly in certain home fire situations they may slow the spread of a fire just enough to provide a little extra escape time for the home occupants, but so might a fireproof doors, or a sprinkler system, or a fireproof membrane between floors, all of which are standard fire codes in multifamily buildings and offices buildings, but not in single family dwellings.
The more I research this, the more I find that US building codes are set up the same way Canadian codes, and when it comes to residential structures and building codes they often vary from city to city and region to region, and if you want to know exactly what applies to your particular home, the best thing to do is contact your local building inspection office and ask them directly, because they are the ones ultimately dictate which building codes apply to you and your home, not some federal bureaucrat in Washington or Ottawa.
Which brings us back full circle to why I suggested to the OP that he check with his local building inspection office for verification.
But of course I'm just a dumb Canadian, and don't really understand about about such things, right?
It's always a good idea to check with the local inspecting authority and ask about International Fire Code Section 716, Ducts and transfer openings.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009/icod_ibc_2009_7_sec016.htm
Or you could just play it safe and try to put as much time as possible between your family and a basement fire.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009/icod_ibc_2009_7_sec016.htm
Or you could just play it safe and try to put as much time as possible between your family and a basement fire.
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Thank you begreen.
I think I found the part you are overlooking.
Please look at 716.1.1.1 Ducts that penetrate nonfire-resistance-rated assemblies. and follow the link on that line to Section 716.6.3. and read the bottom line on that link where it reads; Exception: Fire dampers are not required in ducts within individual residential dwelling units.
The key here being "individual residential dwelling units" which is essentially what I have been trying to say all along.
Ceilings between floors in living spaces of individual family dwelling units do not have to have any fire-resistant ratings. Many homes do have drywall board on ceilings, and drywall does offer some fire resistance, but it is not generally code to have drywall ceilings. You are free to use other materials like wood paneling, or in some cases people just have open joists or beams as you might find in unfinished basements or beam construction homes that use thick tongue and groove wood flooring. This is different then the floor space between a garage and a living space in a home, in that case because you are parking cars and possibly storing flammable things like gas or even propane tanks, the codes generally require some fire resistant material, like drywall, to separate the floors (and walls) of the garage from the living space.
Again, I'm not arguing with you that fusible link vents in a family home aren't a good idea, just like sprinkler system, fireproof doors, fire-resistant ceilings, smoke alarms, CO2 detectors, and a host of other fire safety related things are good ideas. I'm just disputing that someone would be breaking any codes by lacking, or not installing, any one of these things in their home, to state otherwise would be incorrect.
I think I found the part you are overlooking.
Please look at 716.1.1.1 Ducts that penetrate nonfire-resistance-rated assemblies. and follow the link on that line to Section 716.6.3. and read the bottom line on that link where it reads; Exception: Fire dampers are not required in ducts within individual residential dwelling units.
The key here being "individual residential dwelling units" which is essentially what I have been trying to say all along.
Ceilings between floors in living spaces of individual family dwelling units do not have to have any fire-resistant ratings. Many homes do have drywall board on ceilings, and drywall does offer some fire resistance, but it is not generally code to have drywall ceilings. You are free to use other materials like wood paneling, or in some cases people just have open joists or beams as you might find in unfinished basements or beam construction homes that use thick tongue and groove wood flooring. This is different then the floor space between a garage and a living space in a home, in that case because you are parking cars and possibly storing flammable things like gas or even propane tanks, the codes generally require some fire resistant material, like drywall, to separate the floors (and walls) of the garage from the living space.
Again, I'm not arguing with you that fusible link vents in a family home aren't a good idea, just like sprinkler system, fireproof doors, fire-resistant ceilings, smoke alarms, CO2 detectors, and a host of other fire safety related things are good ideas. I'm just disputing that someone would be breaking any codes by lacking, or not installing, any one of these things in their home, to state otherwise would be incorrect.
In ducts no, that is understandable, but what about grates between basement and main floor?
PS: This is the thread posted by a fire protection engineer about 5 yrs back that I was referring to:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fire-safe-floor-grates-louvers.14678/
PS: thanks for sticking with this. it comes up a lot.
PS: This is the thread posted by a fire protection engineer about 5 yrs back that I was referring to:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fire-safe-floor-grates-louvers.14678/
PS: thanks for sticking with this. it comes up a lot.
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Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
Thank you for sticking with me.
I would have to say grates between floors would be including under the term air transfer openings, which they seem to lump together with ducting and air transfer openings.
As they use the term ducts through out, but only use the term air transfer opening in the title SECTION 716 DUCTS AND AIR TRANSFER OPENINGS
I think it basically all comes down to occupancy, almost all of those regulations on fire dampers and ducts and air transfer openings refer to wall and floor penetrations between fire resistant barriers, which should always be in place between different occupancy's or separations between single family dwellings and corridors or common areas. It is important to keep in mind that most of this coding applies to commercial buildings, institutions and multifamily dwellings like apartments, motels, etc... Where the use of common ducting and air venting systems may be used through a building, but there is a need for fire separations between dwelling units, this is the reason why stairwells in common areas of apartment building must have fire doors, but stairwells in single family homes do not.
Here is an interesting link I found pertaining to the making of vertical holes in floors per IBCs, and has a "hole in floor calculator", and gives any exceptions or restrictions regarding vertical hole making in different types of occupancy classifications. When using the calculator and entering different R values (Residential) in the occupancy box, you'll see in red lettering a flag note saying For case 'e,' hole must be entirely within a single residential unit. come up. I'm not saying this calculator applies directly to grate holes, but it is interesting
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Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
To add fuel to this seemingly one sided discussion I will point out that the IBC (International Building Code) probably does not even apply to most wood burners anyway. Most wood burners live in individual homes, not multi family dwellings, and the IBCs applies to multi family dwellings, commercial buildings and institutions.
The building codes for individual homes and houses would be covered under the IRC (International Residential Code) which specifically only deals with One- and Two-Family Dwellings and nothing else.
Read this link to understand the difference. http://evstudio.com/residential-occupancy-group-as-defined-in-the-international-building-code/
When dealing with the legality of a flow through grate between floors and the IRC you would most likely look at the section on fire blocking. The codes states that any continuous hidden cavity between floors should have fire blocking. The term hidden is the key here, because a stairwell is essentially an open cavity between floors, and so is a laundry chute, as well as a few other things that are commonly allowed that are open cavities that extend between floors. If it seems confusing it is, because even the inspectors themselves who rely on these codes and do their best to interpret them don't always agree on the interpretation and application of them. Which brings us back again to the need to check with your local inspecting authorities on your specific situation and application.
The building codes for individual homes and houses would be covered under the IRC (International Residential Code) which specifically only deals with One- and Two-Family Dwellings and nothing else.
Read this link to understand the difference. http://evstudio.com/residential-occupancy-group-as-defined-in-the-international-building-code/
When dealing with the legality of a flow through grate between floors and the IRC you would most likely look at the section on fire blocking. The codes states that any continuous hidden cavity between floors should have fire blocking. The term hidden is the key here, because a stairwell is essentially an open cavity between floors, and so is a laundry chute, as well as a few other things that are commonly allowed that are open cavities that extend between floors. If it seems confusing it is, because even the inspectors themselves who rely on these codes and do their best to interpret them don't always agree on the interpretation and application of them. Which brings us back again to the need to check with your local inspecting authorities on your specific situation and application.
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