Cutting with sap down

[JASFARMER]

I know I've read other posts on here about when is the best time to cut wood, but I have stumbled onto something the last couple of days I thought I would share. I recently purchased a moisture meter and have been randomly checking my wood that I had split from last year. 12-18%. My grandpa had a logger come in and log a bunch of trees along his field ( white, red, black oak, cherry, hickory, and everything in between) and I was planning on it taking 2 years to season if I got it all split this year. When I started splitting and checked with moisture meter all the butts, limbs, and other pieces were 13-22% moisture already. I couldn't believe it. I checked and rechecked a bunch of times. Always getting same readings. Came home and checked my seasoned pile and it is right where it's supposed to be.
My point to all that is that some old timers told me to always try and cut when the sap is down in the winter. They said that when tree is full of green leaves, even when immediately split, wood will take longer to dry because it is full of sap. It made since to me, but with the meter it just validates it more. I can't believe it was that low. I was expecting 30's but not 17 avg. I guess those old timers did know a thing or two about wood. The logger was finishing up today and cut the last tree(cherry) about 24 inch diameter and I immediately checked the log he was taking and it was 18. He said the same thing, cut with sap down if possible.
Just thought I would share this little info I have come across.
And with all this wood, it's like I have won the lottery. Gonna need to make a different storage area

 

[jatoxico]

I've heard that one, makes sense to me. Or if you do drop the tree while it's leafed out, let it lay with the leaves on it before limbimg and bucking and it will lose moisture through them. Don't know if that works but sounds plausible.

 

[firefighterjake]

It is hard to dispute those numbers ... but I am still a bit skeptical ... would love to know how a load of this wood in the stove would burn. That said ... other than oak ... most folks say wood cut, split and stacked should only take a year to season.

 

[Jon1270]

It's cold in Illinois right now. I assume the wood is stacked outside. Moisture meters are typically calibrated for 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Low temps produce a false low reading.

 

[maple1]

I'd take some of that wood inside to a warm dry wood pile & measure it (and some from the dry wood pile) again a day later.

 

[JASFARMER]

I'd take some of that wood inside to a warm dry wood pile & measure it (and some from the dry wood pile) again a day later.

I plan on that. Took some cherry inside today gonna check it in a day or two

 

[xman23]

I cleared my building lot in march. Nothing was moving in the trees. In terms of sap it was noticeably dry. But really dry through out, I don't know.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

I always thought sap went down in the winter and came back up in the spring and then i learned i was wrong in that thinking. Sap stays up in the tree year round so it shouldnt be any drier in the winter than it is any other time.

 

[JASFARMER]

I always thought sap went down in the winter and came back up in the spring and then i learned i was wrong in that thinking. Sap stays up in the tree year round so it shouldnt be any drier in the winter than it is any other time.

I have always been told it goes down the comes up. When I checked trees that were downed in summer from either a storm or being felled they were at least 10% wetter. Mostly in the 30s and up. Maybe location has a lot to do with it too? All this being said I'm not saying one way is better than another, but for me I will try to continue felling trees in the winter if possible.

 

[Firewood Bandit]

I am curious on your readings. Two things make abnormally low readings. Frozen wood reads lower and readings from the outside of a piece. Re split to get a good reading from the center. Even dead standing wood is still pretty wet until split except elm.

 

[maple1]

I'm getting data too.

I just brought a couple of spits inside. Maple, freshly cut down in the past month, split this past week. Frozen solid. I resplit & got 25-27%. I'll check again after it thaws - but it weighs a ton, no way is it anything close to starting to get or be partly dry.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I've heard that one, makes sense to me. Or if you do drop the tree while it's leafed out, let it lay with the leaves on it before limbimg and bucking and it will lose moisture through them. Don't know if that works but sounds plausible.

An old wives tale. Not true at all.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

One more thing to keep in mind. I've seen folks take a reading from a certain tree and it happens to be low. So in the future they assume all of that species will be the same. In addition, sometimes a tree will be abnormally high in moisture but that does not mean they will all be the same. So just a caution here in that just as with most things, it can vary a lot. I'm sure many have also cut dead trees and if you've done many you already know that it is not wise to say that all dead trees will be dry and ready to burn now. One good example is the dead elm we cut. We not only wait for them to die but also wait until most of the bark has fallen. Tree should really be dry, right? Well, partially right. If you checked some of the trunk near the top or in the top third of the tree you will flip as that wood is ready to be burned today! But as you continue to cut toward the bottom of the tree, the rest can be very high moisture. So never make assumptions based upon one tree or a few splits.

 

[Paulywalnut]

I've had some red oak 4 year split still reading 25 to 28 percent. Rare but cut from the trunk of a big red oak and it can really hold moisture.

 

[CenterTree]

I always thought sap went down in the winter and came back up in the spring and then i learned i was wrong in that thinking. Sap stays up in the tree year round so it shouldnt be any drier in the winter than it is any other time.

A short piece about it here>

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/science/wonderquest/2002-03-13-tree-sap.htm

 

[JASFARMER]

A short piece about it here>

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/science/wonderquest/2002-03-13-tree-sap.htm

I know that guy is a professor but one thing doesn't add up. If the sap doesn't move then why are you supposed to tap a maple tree in early spring time to get the best maple syrup. Is it because the sap is going back up the tree? I have had some splits inside for a day and a half and it is still reading 18-20 on the cherry and 19-21 on red oak. Split some white oak and hickory today with readings any where from 17-23. I have checked from multiple trees as they took a bunch out. Some wetter than others and some drier. I am going to cut and split as much as possible with the plan on using it next season. I have checked different species outside and after being inside so maybe I'll let it sit longer inside and see where it goes from there.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

If the sap doesn't move then why are you supposed to tap a maple tree in early spring time

that was what i said to, didnt make sense. I googled it and read up on it but it never answered the maple tree conundrum .

 

[CenterTree]

that was what i said to, didnt make sense. I googled it and read up on it but it never answered the maple tree conundrum .

------------------------------

I know that guy is a professor but one thing doesn't add up. If the sap doesn't move then why are you supposed to tap a maple tree in early spring time to get the best maple syrup. Is it because the sap is going back up the tree? .

As my Aunt Jemima once told me: Sap is released by pressure and suction effect. Caused by the change in temps (day - night).
http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/produc/sapflow.htm

^^An simple article for those who really are interested.^^

 

[maple1]

So in other words - there is no less moisture in the tree in winter than summer. If anything, there is more from the suction inducing freezing of the tree.

 

[Jon1270]

When I checked trees that were downed in summer from either a storm or being felled they were at least 10% wetter.

How did you check the moisture of these freshly felled trees? Electronic meters are useless on green wood; they are terribly inaccurate on anything over about 28% MC, and most species have 2-3 times that much moisture when green. The only way you can get an accurate read of MC on green wood is to weigh a sample, oven-dry it and weigh it again.

 

[maple1]

How did you check the moisture of these freshly felled trees? Electronic meters are useless on green wood; they are terribly inaccurate on anything over about 28% MC, and most species have 2-3 times that much moisture when green. The only way you can get an accurate read of MC on green wood is to weigh a sample, oven-dry it and weigh it again.

I think I'm agreeing on that. The wood I brought in yesterday is thawed out & still reading 27%. But it is as green & wet & heavy as you can get - there is no way it is only 27% MC.

Some of that is likely to do particular meters - but that's what I'm seeing with my cheap Ebay Hong Kong special. This is the first truly green wood I've measured with it.

 

[Jon1270]

Some of that is likely to do particular meters

Not really. Electronic meters aren't really measuring moisture, they're measuring electrical properties -- usually resistance but sometimes capacitance -- and making an educated guess about the MC that probably correlates to the measured property. When there's liquid water present in the wood, which is anywhere above the fiber saturation point (~28%), those electrical properties simply don't correlate to MC closely enough to be meaningful.

 

[peakbagger]

I wonder how the natural "antifreeze" that forms in wood in winter factors in.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

last year, early spring i cut down a maple tree and i remember that thing just weeping sap from the cut for days. I was just amazed at how wet that wood was and thinking it'd take forever to dry out.

 

[Jon1270]

FWIW, even if sap is more mobile in the tree at certain times of year, that doesn't mean there's more of it present. A pressurized hose has about the same amount of water in it whether you're squeezing the nozzle trigger or not.