yes on top at the cat but what about the rest of the stove? Bun on high the rest of the stove should be pretty hot and should be radiating pretty well but if the splits are to big and don't have enough surface ares the box may not get that hot. That is just a guess but I have seen it be an issue before with other stoves and it is a pretty easy thing to try. It will also mean he can fit a larger volume of wood in there which means more available btus.
Dissapointed in New Blaze King King
- Thread starter trevj
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jetsam
Minister of Fire
I didn't think of that.
He has a much more efficient stove. Much more heat is going into the basement where there is an infinite heat sink with a huge surface area, and much less is going up the flue, which is actually a heat source for the house.
The basement heat is largely getting absorbed by the bare masonry, as it always was before. You could probably add a second stove running on high without making that much additional heat available for circulation.
He could either raise the flue temps by getting a much less efficient stove, or fix the ducted heat by insulating the concrete walls and floors in the basement.
On the down side, when the house doesn't need heat and the fan shuts down, it is going to.be 150 degrees in his computer room.
No, from my experience with my King in the basement it likely won't be much warmer than 80F. I'd actually bet it doesn't get over 85F measured 10-15 feet from his stove....
On the down side, when the house doesn't need heat and the fan shuts down, it is going to.be 150 degrees in his computer room.
4-5 splits? I just loaded my little bk princess with 12 splits. You've got to feed the beast. Try a load of splits that are small enough to load with one hand, maybe 5-7" across, loaded all the way to the roof. Stack them tight trying to get as much wood in as possible. Expect to get at least 20 splits in there.
Enjoy the mild weather. If it gets too hot you can turn the stove down but always load it full.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
Ok. Was just asking because sometimes when swapping up to a newer tech like a cat stove people can run into creosote issues espescially while working the bugs out. So it is something to keep an eye on. The worst buildup will be at the top. It can be difficult to view through to the top with a hand mirror and flashlight on a chimney that tall. Even with multiple different sized mirrors(so I can pick the largest size for the available opening) and with a high powered tuneable flashlight and excellent eyesight to boot(I know, that modesty again) 25-30ft can be difficult to see the top clearly at times.
And it is easy enough to clean from the bottom up either through the clean out, thimble, or stove even. I do most of my cleaning bottom up but it's still good to access the top to confirm cleanliness and check out the top of the chimney.
With the bkstoves the cap gets really nasty. Almost requires cap removal and wire brushing. I cleaned my bk chimney bottom up yesterday, right through the loading door.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I'd hav to look back but I don't think trevj has a cap at all? Common for masonry chimneys in these parts. Not proper, but common all the same. The semi-dessert climate is all I can chalk it up to, but I'd say I see more masonry chimneys that don't have caps than those that do.
jatoxico
Minister of Fire
This is where I was going with asking how much wood was being burned in the old stove. Even if the old unit wasted a lot of heat to the atmosphere you'll get some heat if you throw enough BTU's at it.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I think a bunch of you who have commented on the lower exhaust temps contributing to a lack of heat upstairs have been spot on. A interior masonry chimney espescially from a basement and up through two more floors will transfer back a lot of that higher exhaust temp of a non-cat stove. One of many reasons why a interior masonry chimney is superior to an exterior one.
I nearly got crucified for suggesting to another new BK member me might want to try operating without one on his masonry chimney to see if it effects draft. Your observation holds true in my neck of the woods too.
@trevj did not tell us if his masonry chimney is exposed on the main living for of the home of if it's covered behind a wall. I wouldn't necessarily blame the cooler file temp and subsequently cooler chimney (if exposed to the living area) to be the significant contributor to his lack of heat.
Regardless, the masonry is a thermal mass that takes heat out of the flue gas and transfers it to its surrounding to obtain an equilibrium no matter if that heat is going into the living space or just into the chase way/attic or outside air. His upper 1/3 of the chimney is exposed to the outside so it transfers hear at a faster rate through this section than if it was in its own chase way. He also has more themal Ms than my chimney because his fireplace flue is run parallel and connected to the same masonry structure. It's a perfect recipy for poor draft or at minimum creosote. He could have plenty of draft and still have creosote issue. I know this because I'm experiencing one to some degree right now.
Attaboy
Member
The last couple of days I have been reflecting on the OP's situation and what I would do if I was in his shoes to end this for ever and permanently resolve the issue . Obviously if you have lots $$ and time is no object you can do just about anything your little heart desires, however what if that is not the case or if you do not want to sink thousands in to it, then what.
For a long time the house was heated by a very powerful RSF-65 which in reality may have been more a wood furnace (hence the hood and heat recuperating system installed way back when), when the RSF-65 was ruined by renters it was replaced by a used RSF-45 smaller and less powerful unit which is now replaced by the blaze king with cast/steel door (no glass). I suspect that both the RSF units burned sufficiently high in temps to easily warm the flue and create excellent draw and as a bonus got the chimney sufficiently hot enough to transfer and radiate some heat on the upper level. The flue thimble's position probably it's actual position was not problematic for those 2 previous units. Enter the blaze king which offers operationally a lower level of heat or lack of sufficient heat which is the basis of the complaint.
Here is where I reverse the roles and I become the OP, everything seemed to work well before, I have now spent a minimum of $4000.00 CND or $3000.00 U.S currency and may now need to spend a few thousand more for a insulated chimney liner even tough my flue and chimney seem to be very efficient and operated well prior to the blaze king, one way or another the flue thimble will need repositioning and what else requires insulation or what ever. Now I still want great heat & efficiency and do not want a hassle and additional financially expense, would it not make sense to leave the chimney as is because it worked well previously except to perhaps move the thimble up and possibly a piece or two of longer flue pipe and purchase an extremely good powerful wood stove.
The point I am making is it may be financially far more reasonable and sane for me to dump the blaze king for $3500.00 or so (yes take a bit of a loss here) take that money and purchase something along the lines of a Pacific Energy Summit that can output 99,000 btu's which will heat the flue, chimney, basement and parts of the house extremely powerfully as the RSF-65 did and still get 9 -12 hour burn times, then pay a professional to move the flue thimble up a couple of feet and have money left over to build a firewood shed to keep my wood dry. You can substitute here any stove you want instead of the PE Summit be it a Drolet HT-2000 or a Osburn etc. etc. as long as it is not a catalytic as perhaps the present setup is possibly not optimal for burning a cat stove.
Basically I am getting back to what I want, heat and lots of it, long burn times with a stove I can leave unattended for my work shift of 8 -12 hours, plus gain a simpler stove to operate with only one air control to use.
Food for thought ! Decisions, decisions, decisions even if only in my own mind.
Obviously the numbers would need to be checked and double checked.
For a long time the house was heated by a very powerful RSF-65 which in reality may have been more a wood furnace (hence the hood and heat recuperating system installed way back when), when the RSF-65 was ruined by renters it was replaced by a used RSF-45 smaller and less powerful unit which is now replaced by the blaze king with cast/steel door (no glass). I suspect that both the RSF units burned sufficiently high in temps to easily warm the flue and create excellent draw and as a bonus got the chimney sufficiently hot enough to transfer and radiate some heat on the upper level. The flue thimble's position probably it's actual position was not problematic for those 2 previous units. Enter the blaze king which offers operationally a lower level of heat or lack of sufficient heat which is the basis of the complaint.
Here is where I reverse the roles and I become the OP, everything seemed to work well before, I have now spent a minimum of $4000.00 CND or $3000.00 U.S currency and may now need to spend a few thousand more for a insulated chimney liner even tough my flue and chimney seem to be very efficient and operated well prior to the blaze king, one way or another the flue thimble will need repositioning and what else requires insulation or what ever. Now I still want great heat & efficiency and do not want a hassle and additional financially expense, would it not make sense to leave the chimney as is because it worked well previously except to perhaps move the thimble up and possibly a piece or two of longer flue pipe and purchase an extremely good powerful wood stove.
The point I am making is it may be financially far more reasonable and sane for me to dump the blaze king for $3500.00 or so (yes take a bit of a loss here) take that money and purchase something along the lines of a Pacific Energy Summit that can output 99,000 btu's which will heat the flue, chimney, basement and parts of the house extremely powerfully as the RSF-65 did and still get 9 -12 hour burn times, then pay a professional to move the flue thimble up a couple of feet and have money left over to build a firewood shed to keep my wood dry. You can substitute here any stove you want instead of the PE Summit be it a Drolet HT-2000 or a Osburn etc. etc. as long as it is not a catalytic as perhaps the present setup is possibly not optimal for burning a cat stove.
Basically I am getting back to what I want, heat and lots of it, long burn times with a stove I can leave unattended for my work shift of 8 -12 hours, plus gain a simpler stove to operate with only one air control to use.
Food for thought ! Decisions, decisions, decisions even if only in my own mind.
Obviously the numbers would need to be checked and double checked.
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Squisher
Minister of Fire
The only problem I see with selling. Is he may wait to get that kind of money. I've watched a BK king glass door with fans unopened in box for sale for five weeks now for $3400, north of us in Prince George. So while I see BK kings go fast it's mostly older units for cheap.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
After just reviewing the images posted of the stove in the basement, it is my opinion that even with an insulated liner, there is insufficient vertical rise to operate a King model in the current installation. Further, the hood above the stove raises significant safety concerns.
Perhaps a 6" stove, high Btu output unit could be made to work. It is also much more likely that a 6" insulated liner could fit down the chimney. Regardless of what stove is operated in this particular installation, consideration should be given to the use so long as the hood above the stove remains. Not being familiar to Canada codes and standards, raises that concern.
Perhaps a 6" stove, high Btu output unit could be made to work. It is also much more likely that a 6" insulated liner could fit down the chimney. Regardless of what stove is operated in this particular installation, consideration should be given to the use so long as the hood above the stove remains. Not being familiar to Canada codes and standards, raises that concern.
Attaboy
Member
Reviewing the blaze king ''king'' online brochure if you look at the chart covering temperatures vs time at its slowest burning setting the flue temp does not go over about 160°F, it would then make it impossible at that temperature to heat up the OP's huge 25ft cinder block chimney and flue as he did with his previous RSF wood burners.
The other thing that bothers me is that on the brochure itself it states not to reduce the flue size below 8''. Refer to the block in the red oval at the bottom.
The other thing that bothers me is that on the brochure itself it states not to reduce the flue size below 8''. Refer to the block in the red oval at the bottom.
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I burn a big noncat too, bigger than the pe summit and I think the way you present this option is confusing. Sure, the peak output of the summit is 99000 btu but the peak output of the bk is 90,000. Neither stove can put that much heat out for more than an instant. That's why they call it the peak. Also, you say 8-12 hours burntime which is only possible, if at all, at the lowest possible output.
The only reason a big noncat might work better for the op is the immense wastefulness and low efficiency responsible for the high flue temps. The low efficiency and smaller firebox always means shorter burn times and more wood to deliver the same heat. The op seems to need this wasted heat to make his chimney work so it isn't really wasted.
Low burn times will come.
Many have mentioned the chimney is a problem, and a liner the solution
I came across a technology,called supaflu, where a slurry is poured down a cylindrical cast inside the chimney. Benefits include r ~ 1 per inch
Anyone know how this compares to an insulated metal liner in cost or performance
I came across a technology,called supaflu, where a slurry is poured down a cylindrical cast inside the chimney. Benefits include r ~ 1 per inch
Anyone know how this compares to an insulated metal liner in cost or performance
bholler, I may have a few things to learn, and a few more about stoves, to unlearn, but on the whole, I have been trying to be polite in the face of essentially called a liar, on several occasions.
I have enough experience in my own world, to know that nobody is ever going to know it all, and I trusted the seller to not send me down the garden path. I may have
Numbers are hard to fudge. They are or are not, no other options. Me saying I am not getting warm, is subjective while me telling you that the temps are ###, is data. It helps to have the tools to collect the data. Working on that.
In all seriousness, I am having to unlearn a few things. I am seriously considering the option of dumping the King, and switching to a lower efficiency stove or esp. furnace, hopefully one that can utilize my current chimney arrangement without a great deal of an investment, and spending some money on ducting and a new set of associated vents both throughout the basement, as well as the main floor level, which really, is where we spend most of our time. Going to have to get sorted on code compliance, as well as costs.
I really am not after efficiency as my primary concern. Nor looks. While some are paying pretty darn good money (and should be getting REALLY good wood for it) I am staring at about a hundred lifetimes worth of wood that will rot or be piled and burnt, before I ever get to it. A couple extra loads of wood a year is just a couple more mornings in a place I enjoy being. Efficiency is nice, but not the prime driver.
Anyways, the weather is playing nice for now. The house is pretty warm, but it has taken running pretty close to the top end of the capability to do it.
I have not loaded the stove to the nuts, mainly because I am not much in the mood to juggle little pieces around while the smoke come out. I can load a few more sticks after a few more hours, and keep the stove cooking along without too much trouble.
For them that wonder at the use of big chunks of wood, skip the intro, right up to just before the 6 minute mark. That is what I desire to do, regularly!
If I had a stove that would take two full layers that size, so much the better!
Anyway, no real new news. Will check in tomorrow.
Thanks for the help, and, patience all!
Cheers
Trev
Load it full or close every time. I don't get crazy filling nooks and crannies but this is how it usually looks. After 6 seasons I have a good idea of what type of pieces to grab off the stack. This is a princess not a king.
Also for smoke spillage when you load try turning the air off. The air coming in above the door has a tendency to push smoke out. Before I replaced a 90 with 2 45's this helped a bunch with some spillage issues I had.
Also for smoke spillage when you load try turning the air off. The air coming in above the door has a tendency to push smoke out. Before I replaced a 90 with 2 45's this helped a bunch with some spillage issues I had.
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Well I never called you a liar at all I just doubted some of the info given from the start mainly the size of the liner. And I was right you were incorrect. I dont think at all it was because you were lying to us you just didnt know the right answer. The reason I got bothered by your attitude was Iwas 95% sure you didnt know what you were talking about on allot of it yet you acted like we were the idiots.
You are absolutely correct no one ever knows everything and I absolutely don't. When it comes to specifics about your stove I defer to others because I really don't see many of them. But I know chimneys and chimney physics. That is what I have been doing for a long time that is what I have had allot of training in and field experience in. But when it comes to a subject I know I don't know as much about I will gladly defer to others who know more. And at this point you seem to be doing that which is why I started to comment towards you again in the beginning of this thread you were not acting that way at all.
bholler, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the chimney here. I think there are really two issues at play here, possibly three.
1. Not the correct size chimney liner for the stove. This is impacting the performance of the BK.
2. BK King is not a BTU Monster, its known for long burn times and does best radiating heat into an insulated space. He is in an un-insulated space, trying to move air through an air handler and out to the rooms above.
3. Thermal Loss through the duct-work is probably accounting for low heating. Input temperature at the element and main plenum for a gas fired system is between 140-170. I highly doubt he is getting any where near that at the plenum, which means he is getting unsatisfactory heating from those vents. For reference, my heat pump puts out between 110-115*F at the vents in my house. If he is getting 70*f out of his, its not going to cut the mustard.
I still think based on his setup, he is better off going with a wood furnace piped directly into his hood system. He has tons of wood, those stoves are not exactly finicky on the type of wood they take, and he would be able to sell the BK back and get a good 6.5" liner put in the chimney if he so chose.
And honestly, with the house having a central chimney he may not even need one, although conventional wisdom says he should get one installed. His goal seems to be to push hot air around via the central air handler system.
How many people have this setup in their own homes using a BK? It might just be that this setup really doesn't work for the BK in his home. At that point I think its just best to recommend what will work for him.
1. Not the correct size chimney liner for the stove. This is impacting the performance of the BK.
2. BK King is not a BTU Monster, its known for long burn times and does best radiating heat into an insulated space. He is in an un-insulated space, trying to move air through an air handler and out to the rooms above.
3. Thermal Loss through the duct-work is probably accounting for low heating. Input temperature at the element and main plenum for a gas fired system is between 140-170. I highly doubt he is getting any where near that at the plenum, which means he is getting unsatisfactory heating from those vents. For reference, my heat pump puts out between 110-115*F at the vents in my house. If he is getting 70*f out of his, its not going to cut the mustard.
I still think based on his setup, he is better off going with a wood furnace piped directly into his hood system. He has tons of wood, those stoves are not exactly finicky on the type of wood they take, and he would be able to sell the BK back and get a good 6.5" liner put in the chimney if he so chose.
And honestly, with the house having a central chimney he may not even need one, although conventional wisdom says he should get one installed. His goal seems to be to push hot air around via the central air handler system.
How many people have this setup in their own homes using a BK? It might just be that this setup really doesn't work for the BK in his home. At that point I think its just best to recommend what will work for him.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I said I'd let it go. But I can't. The solution here is not to get a furnace and hook it up to that hood. There are no upstream add on connections acceptable in Canada. The existing hood on the cold air return of trevj's electric furnace is not where a add on furnace or a standalone heater can go and meet code so in theory pass a inspection.
I say in theory because I've seen already in my short career as a sweep quite a few 'certified' installations that wouldn't pass code or my inspection.
I'm all for coming up with solutions but IMO they should be code compliant.
I say in theory because I've seen already in my short career as a sweep quite a few 'certified' installations that wouldn't pass code or my inspection.
I'm all for coming up with solutions but IMO they should be code compliant.
Furnace is a great idea for the OP. Way more output, cheaper, bigger firebox, thermostatic controls so basement is okay since he won't always be there to fiddle with the air control. Raw power and really the best place for a wood furnace.
1) Dump the wood furnace into the room, no ducts on either supply or return side of the wood furnace. Nice and easy just like another monster stove in the room and they usually use 6" flues. It is unclear whether any intake for the existing central furnace can be in the basement, in the US we know the intake must simply be 10 feet away but in Canada the rules are different.
2) Put new furnace ducting from the wood furnace to the upstairs and probably (depends on other factors) a return duct from the upstairs to the intake filter box of the furnace. Two duct runs. Done. Many folks cut vents into the supply ducts from the wood furnace to heat the basement.
I didnt realize this hood was in the return side... I thought, and please excuse my missing this, that the hood was a collector on the supply side where it then went through the main plenum and into the registers in the home. The way it currently is set up is clearly not the right way to do that with a wood stove. Squisher, thank you for pointing that out. I clearly missed this somewhere.
That being said, I still think a wood furnace is the best solution, I would recommend closing off the hood, piping the outlets from the wood furnace into the blower side of his system (not return).
I would also suggest, if it is needed (I don't know Canadian code on this) a OAK for the furnace. Unless I'm missing something that should work just fine. My friend did that with his house here in the states. He has a block off plate for the feed side of the furnace so in the warm months when he is using the A/C all the air goes the right direction.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
The damper inside of the plenum parallel connection is also not a permitted add on furnace connection in Canada.
You can only add on a wood burning furnace using a downstream connection or the 'divider plate method'.
As per the certification standard CSA B366.1 and by the installation code B365 these are the only two add on connections permitted. Also note, some add ons themselves aren't certified for divider plate installations, in which case it would leave only the the downstream option. Further, cert requirements for add ons to oil were developed in '81, for electric in '84, and gas in '85.
But the basic requirement of any add on installation is that the original furnace must continue to operate under the same conditions as it did before the add on was installed. Tests should be done before and after for supply air temp and pressure before any alteration. Then tested again after the add on connection and then adjusted to produce the same results as before.
Things are somewhat strict and specific here the moment it becomes a furnace or a interconnected add on. That is what was throwing me earlier I think when people were talking about using a furnace as a space heater. As soon as ducting goes up, the requirements for clearances and air balancing either as a standalone, or the requirements of a add on aren't a simple affair.
You can only add on a wood burning furnace using a downstream connection or the 'divider plate method'.
As per the certification standard CSA B366.1 and by the installation code B365 these are the only two add on connections permitted. Also note, some add ons themselves aren't certified for divider plate installations, in which case it would leave only the the downstream option. Further, cert requirements for add ons to oil were developed in '81, for electric in '84, and gas in '85.
But the basic requirement of any add on installation is that the original furnace must continue to operate under the same conditions as it did before the add on was installed. Tests should be done before and after for supply air temp and pressure before any alteration. Then tested again after the add on connection and then adjusted to produce the same results as before.
Things are somewhat strict and specific here the moment it becomes a furnace or a interconnected add on. That is what was throwing me earlier I think when people were talking about using a furnace as a space heater. As soon as ducting goes up, the requirements for clearances and air balancing either as a standalone, or the requirements of a add on aren't a simple affair.
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