Dissapointed in New Blaze King King

[brenndatomu]

No reason a Drolet Heatpro (or PSG Max Caddy) couldn't be installed as a free standing heater under that hood...

 

[Squisher]

Yes there is. Because a hood over a space heater on the return air is strictly prohibited. Upstream installations are not allowed. The hood referred to is feeding a FAF.

Edit. Had a quick look of the drolet manual and they forbid ducting the hot air of their wood furnace into the return air of the existing furnace.

 

[webby3650]

The OP is not happy with the biggest and best performing stove on the market (in my opinion and many others) I seriously doubt he will be happy with any EPA stove or furnace for that matter. Some people just can't get past the massive amount of heat produced from these old smoke dragons. They were inefficient, but heated like crazy. Most people welcome the lessened wood consumption, long burn times, and the even heat distribution, but some people are only looking for big heat and that's it. Often the home is bleeding Btu's so rather than weather seal the home they just let that old stove eat gobs of wood. I think this is one of those situations.

 

[BKVP]

Can any of your guys furnaces be installed as space heaters as highbeam suggested?

MP80. Never emissions tested, not legal in all areas!

 

[BKVP]

I've never run a BK (or any cat stove for that matter) but it sticks out to me that the air is being left wide open all the time...I know on the tube stoves I have run, they put out more heat when throttled down (once the secondary burn is stabilized)
I wonder what happens when this unit is throttled down? And does running the stove wide open all the time damage anything...like maybe the cats cooked? (I know, I know, there's a chinese food joke in there somewhere's)

Great observation. In fact, surface temps can increase significantly as the combustor temps increase with residence time.

 

[Squisher]

MP80. Never emissions tested, not legal in all areas!

So it is described as a standalone or add on furnace. Are you saying it can be hooked up with no plenum or ducting? It has to have the blower and thermostat as per the manual. So it can just blow 900cfm straight into the room it's in?

I know we're getting sidetracked here but everyone keeps saying you can just have a wood furnace hooked up to no ducting. Which may be true if it was on its own. But I'm doubtful you can do it in the same room/area as an existing FAF.

And again. I question why anyone would ever buy a furnace to use as a space heater?

 

[mstoelton]

Is the chimney (flue) that the stove is connected to only connected to the stove and is it otherwise sealed? Or is there some other source of "air bypass" that could be resulting in a reduction of the draft up the chimney? from either below the stove or above it. This will make a big difference. The air being pulled up the chimney to create the draft will come from the point of least resistance. If the point of least resistance is an open ash clean-out, or a poorly sealed stove/thimble/chimney connection or an opening in the flue on another level of the house, the resulting draft at the stove will be reduced. This could lead to the symptoms of back-puffing and minimal heat generation/ lackluster performance the OP is describing.

 

[Attaboy]

Bottom line here whether the OP keeps his BK or moves on to something like a Pacific Energy Summit, Drolet or what ever brand, for peace of mind and to ensure any stove and installation he will end up with will be problem free it requires elimination of any possible or potential problem with the chimney because he is going from a old free flowing smoker / polluter which burned and ran unrestricted to anything that has to be EPA certified which is a totally different animal and transformed burning / heating world. Although frustrating for him presently some time and money requires to be invested to make sure any new stove and installation will work optimally and heat his basement and home. Any problems that arises in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years down the road will obviously be more costly to resolve then right now.

I am no expert by any means but can not believe that the new BKK stove he purchased is not capable of heating so strongly it chases him out of his own basement, which I am sure he will be pleased with and appreciative of when this does happen.

Hopefully with the help and cooperation of his dealer they will resolve all issues with his actual new stove and installation.

It would be just incredibly maddening for the OP to get rid of the BK and take a loss on it, purchase a new stove of $2000.00, spend $$ on the install and face a chimney and draft problem again using another new EPA stove.

 

[Highbeam]

And again. I question why anyone would ever buy a furnace to use as a space heater?

I very much would want to use a furnace as a space heater for my shop area. Mostly because the wood furnaces are capable of much higher output than any EPA stove. The wood furnace pictured above, the drolet, has an 1800 CFM blower with a large heat exchanger where the actual flue pipe snakes back and forth through the forced air stream, and the 4.9 CF firebox is completely within the blower cabinet too. Oh and they are thermostatically controlled so no fiddling with the damper.

The OP Trev should remove the intake hood above his stove in any case. The intake can still be in the same room as the wood furnace. Or, a very small separate duct system can be added just through the floor above to dump some or all of the wood furnace heat into the living area.

 

[Highbeam]

I've never run a BK (or any cat stove for that matter) but it sticks out to me that the air is being left wide open all the time...I know on the tube stoves I have run, they put out more heat when throttled down (once the secondary burn is stabilized)
I wonder what happens when this unit is throttled down? And does running the stove wide open all the time damage anything...like maybe the cats cooked? (I know, I know, there's a chinese food joke in there somewhere's)

Careful, the OP's BK is being left at maximum thermostat setting all the time. This is NOT the same thing as leaving the intake throttle blade open all the time. The BK will close the throttle blades when it warms up to the thermostat set point which includes the max stat setting.

 

[Squisher]

I very much would want to use a furnace as a space heater for my shop area. Mostly because the wood furnaces are capable of much higher output than any EPA stove. The wood furnace pictured above, the drolet, has an 1800 CFM blower with a large heat exchanger where the actual flue pipe snakes back and forth through the forced air stream, and the 4.9 CF firebox is completely within the blower cabinet too. Oh and they are thermostatically controlled so no fiddling with the damper.

The OP Trev should remove the intake hood above his stove in any case. The intake can still be in the same room as the wood furnace. Or, a very small separate duct system can be added just through the floor above to dump some or all of the wood furnace heat into the living area.

Well I'm still doubtful that mechanical code would allow for a separate wood furnace in the same room/area as an existing forced air furnace. Besides you would need supply air return air and then ducting for the wood furnace to have it feed into the living area. Also if the existing FAF is going to take return air from an area of a space heater it must supply the same approximate volume to that area too. It would seem like a air/clearance/ducting nightmare to me. But again I'm starting to feel like we're going in circles with it.

I could see it working well in your shop as a standalone, but I can't see a separate wood furnace installed as a space heater alongside but completely separate of an existing FAF working out well.

The proper way to utilize a furnace in this situation would be to either install it properly as a add on, or remove the existing furnace and install a combo unit.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has installed to code a completely separate wood furnace right next to an existing FAF. Without return air ducting which would have to be non-combustible as a standalone where is this 1800cfm or air going to come from? There is no way you can suck 1800cfm out of your basement and still burn wood and have the exhaust heading up a chimney without extensive ducting and air balancing.

I've read extensively now about wood furnaces and their configurations and there is zero mention of installing them as a completely separate system alongside an existing FAF. My gut tells me that the code for installation of a oil, coal, gas, or electric FAF probably covers not installing a wood furnace beside one unless it's done as a proper add on install.

Again, just tossing in a wood furnace is not a simple install. Lots to consider when ducting and moving air. I suspect that it can't b

But edumacate me. I'm all ears.

 

[Woody Stover]

The king is a convection heater, I don't think it's gonna produce enough heat for the hood to work worth a damn.

You could always break out the old clay and put in a stainless liner. The people that assured you the chimney would be fine also told you a 7" connector pipe would be fine as well. I have to question their advice. Did they inspect the chimney before giving you this advice?

The OP knows the system he had was working...one option is to find the simplest, cheapest way to get back there. The BK is a convective stove and pretty much needs the blower to pull off much heat at all. With the external, plus the internal shields, I don't see it getting a ton of radiant heat off the sides. All I know for sure is that the Buck 91 running on medium, with the blower pulling heat from the back/top and the sides of the stove, would start to burn my hand if I held it in front of the air outlets for more than a couple seconds. I realize it's "water under the bridge" to some extent but the Woodstock hybrids, radiation-type stoves, would be a better match for the heat distribution system he has in place. And they are 6" flues. The raw stove would have been half the price but shipping, and maybe importing, would be an added expense, so I don't know how the actual bottom lines would compare. Woodstock may well be a no-go in Canada but my point is, he needs a radiant stove if he wants to use his former method of heating the space. He needs the heat to rise straight up, into the funnel. Based on the EPA numbers, maybe a higher output than the BK could be had.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf
Really, he should be refunded his money based on the fact that the stove doesn't appear to draw, even though he was assured that his chimney wouldn't be a problem. When you have a stove that can be run with the air wide open (bypass closed) without over-firing, they should know that it won't draw that great with a restricted outlet and masonry chimney, but maybe they figured that 30' would overcome those problems. But like @bholler said, any dealer worth his salt should have tested the draw first to be sure. Otherwise, in my book, the onus is on them. IMO, they should refund. Here's where the Woodstock money-back guarantee, no questions asked, would be nice to have. Alas... That said, I'd think any easy-breathing 6" stove would have plenty of draft on his chimney.

 

[BKVP]

So it is described as a standalone or add on furnace. Are you saying it can be hooked up with no plenum or ducting? It has to have the blower and thermostat as per the manual. So it can just blow 900cfm straight into the room it's in?

I know we're getting sidetracked here but everyone keeps saying you can just have a wood furnace hooked up to no ducting. Which may be true if it was on its own. But I'm doubtful you can do it in the same room/area as an existing FAF.

And again. I question why anyone would ever buy a furnace to use as a space heater?

Yes, it must have the blower and be stand alone with one biggest floor register. Or it can be added onto existing fuel furnace system. Again, not legal in all areas.

 

[webby3650]

The OP knows the system he had was working...one option is to find the simplest, cheapest way to get back there. The BK is a convective stove and pretty much needs the blower to pull off much heat at all. With the external, plus the internal shields, I don't see it getting a ton of radiant heat off the sides. All I know for sure is that the Buck 91 running on medium, with the blower pulling heat from the back/top and the sides of the stove, would start to burn my hand if I held it in front of the air outlets for more than a couple seconds. I realize it's "water under the bridge" to some extent but the Woodstock hybrids, radiation-type stoves, would be a better match for the heat distribution system he has in place. And they are 6" flues. The raw stove would have been half the price but shipping, and maybe importing, would be an added expense, so I don't know how the actual bottom lines would compare. Woodstock may well be a no-go in Canada but my point is, he needs a radiant stove if he wants to use his former method of heating the space. He needs the heat to rise straight up, into the funnel. Based on the EPA numbers, maybe a higher output than the BK could be had.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf
Really, he should be refunded his money based on the fact that the stove doesn't appear to draw, even though he was assured that his chimney wouldn't be a problem. When you have a stove that can be run with the air wide open (bypass closed) without over-firing, they should know that it won't draw that great with a restricted outlet and masonry chimney, but maybe they figured that 30' would overcome those problems. But like @bholler said, any dealer worth his salt should have tested the draw first to be sure. Otherwise, in my book, the onus is on them. IMO, they should refund. Here's where the Woodstock money-back guarantee, no questions asked, would be nice to have. Alas... That said, I'd think any easy-breathing 6" stove would have plenty of draft on his chimney.

A refund maybe in order ONLY if the dealer actually came to the house and hooked it up. Cash and carry is a large part of the stove business, without being on site it's hard to blame the store for a poor chimney. They should have given better advice though.

I almost never use the blowers, it's a very capable heater without the blowers. They should not be needed to heat 1100 square feet.

 

[begreen]

Well I'm still doubtful that mechanical code would allow for a separate wood furnace in the same room/area as an existing forced air furnace.

That should not be an issue. It's ok as long as it's installed according to code. There are several wood furnace that are add-ons for sale. There are even combo wood/gas (or oil) furnaces. Whether air quality regs allow them in the province though is unknown.

 

[Highbeam]

I think you ar misinterpreting standalone. That doesn't mean no ducting or blower or thermostat, it just means that there is no other heating component to the FAF. A standalone wood furnace does not mean used as a space heater.

Woops, yes, I was calling an unducted furnace "stand alone" because it stands alone without ducts. Makes sense to me but the industry jargon dictates that I should call that a freestanding space heater.

There is no requirement that a wood furnace be hooked to ducts in the manuals I have read.

 

[Squisher]

Yes, it must have the blower and be stand alone with one biggest floor register. Or it can be added onto existing fuel furnace system. Again, not legal in all areas.

And all the manuals I've read through are the same. They have to have the blower and a thermostat as standalone. Again if there is an existing FAF system in place my bet is a standalone isn't allowed to be installed separately it would have to be done as a downstream add on. But regardless the universal requirement of the blower would mean ducting is required. As you can't suck 900-1800(more?)cfm of air from right outside a wood combustion box or just from the room it's in, let alone the same room or area that a completely separate FAF is in too. Which again, makes the proper way(a downstream add on) a more practical install as you don't need to install non-combustible return ducts with a properly installed downstream addon.

Furnaces and ducting and all that comes with it are much more complicated than space heater installatiOns(woodstoves and inserts).

Anyone else dizzy yet?

 

[brenndatomu]

I question why anyone would ever buy a furnace to use as a space heater?

Maybe for the firebox size/BTU output/bang for the $$. Plus they tend to have fireboxes capable of loading longer splits like OP mentioned.

Careful, the OP's BK is being left at maximum thermostat setting all the time. This is NOT the same thing as leaving the intake throttle blade open all the time. The BK will close the throttle blades when it warms up to the thermostat set point which includes the max stat setting.

Ahh, gotcha. Like I said, I have never run one...or even been around one really...

 

[NateB]

This is a large firebox unit, low Btu heater designed for 1,200 sq ft average home. Designed for a 7" flue...

I enjoy reading this discussion, because I learn some great trouble shooting tips. It is a shame that the OP has hit the trifecta for poor performance. Questionable wood quality, poor draft, and a but the old one worked fine approach to the problem.

My question to BKVP is does a glass door add to the amount of heat outputted by a stove? I know when I am in front of the glass it is much warmer then off to the side.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experience and wisdom with the world.

 

[Squisher]

I hope we can agree. That the requirement in every manual I've looked at of the blower means there will be ducting.

One of the basic installation principles of any wood burning installation is that it isn't robbing the supply air of other appliances like existing FAF and hot water tanks and whatnot. In my mind that alone negates installing a standalone wood furnace in the same area as an existing FAF without some major ducting to balance air.

Again this is why they are designed to be added on when there's an existing FAF already in place. And the guidelines for add ons are quite clear.

I'm not saying if there is no existing furnace that you couldn't in theory have one big supply duct and one big noncombustible return duct. But you're going to need ducting to run that blower. And if there's already an existing FAF in place like the OP has. I doubt it's a to code option.

 

[BKVP]

I enjoy reading this discussion, because I learn some great trouble shooting tips. It is a shame that the OP has hit the trifecta for poor performance. Questionable wood quality, poor draft, and a but the old one worked fine approach to the problem.

My question to BKVP is does a glass door add to the amount of heat outputted by a stove? I know when I am in front of the glass it is much warmer then off to the side.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experience and wisdom with the world.

Yes, the glass is a very powerful radiant heat source. The solid door is two layers of metal, perhaps the glass would help.

 

[Squisher]

That should not be an issue. It's ok as long as it's installed according to code. There are several wood furnace that are add-ons for sale. There are even combo wood/gas (or oil) furnaces. Whether air quality regs allow them in the province though is unknown.

Again. We've discussed proper downstream add on connections, and combo units, which are allowed. But what I'm questioning is people saying that a wood furnace can be installed as a standalone in the same room or area as a existing FAF, and run with either no ducting or limited supply ducting.

I'm only really staying on this as I'd say wood furnaces are probably 10% of my work. Very common here.

BC requires as of last year that new wood furnaces or boilers pass EPA regulations or the equivalent csa testing. As always check with the authority having jurisdiction(local) to see if there's further restrictions.

 

[Highbeam]

The BK is a convective stove and pretty much needs the blower to pull off much heat at all. With the external, plus the internal shields, I don't see it getting a ton of radiant heat off the sides.

I know you've never seen a BK stove but the classic model the OP has probably doesn't even have the optional side shields. The internal heat shields just take the place of bricks since the deep firebox actually tilts inwards near the top and bricks would fall out.

The intake hood would work to move heated air to the house. A primarily radiant stove would make less hot air than a primarily convective stove. That's the whole point of a convective stove, to heat air. I think you have it backwards which type of heater would work better under a hood.

 

[Highbeam]

I hope we can agree. That the requirement in every manual I've looked at of the blower means there will be ducting.

Not at all. I think you're quite wrong for the case of a freestanding installation. See, the blower will suck air from the room and then pump it right back into the room so pressure is neutral. Lots of wood furnaces installed in basements with NO return air ducting. Just a filter on the box. Take a look in the boiler room where the furnace guys hang out.

If a basement had a door and ducted supply to another level then I could see some pretty ugly backdrafts happening!

 

[begreen]

Based on the setup I think a barenaked (no side shields), 3 cu ft Drolet would work. That will take 18" wood and they're not too draft sensitive by most report

Again. We've discussed proper downstream add on connections, and combo units, which are allowed. But what I'm questioning is people saying that a wood furnace can be installed as a standalone in the same room or area as a existing FAF, and run with either no ducting or limited supply ducting.

I'm only really staying on this as I'd say wood furnaces are probably 10% of my work. Very common here.

BC requires as of last year that new wood furnaces or boilers pass EPA regulations or the equivalent csa testing. As always check with the authority having jurisdiction(local) to see if there's further restrictions.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you know what the code concern with the standalone is? combustion air competition? creating negative pressure if sucking from the basement and supplying upstairs? sharing common chimney?