Drying Wood Quickly Indoors

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Very interesting experiment. In all honesty I wouldn't have expected to see such good results in such a short time period. In hindsight, it seems logical because the conditions in your experiemnt are much better than the most ideal outdoor drying conditions. The integrated temperature and relative humidity are one factor but the constant air movement via the fan is also significant. I've never been to a desert but I think trying to match all three conditions for a week straight(24/7) would be nearly impossible.

I for one would love to see how it would expedite the seasoning for red oak. Do you have any near you?
 
Rockey said:
I for one would love to see how it would expedite the seasoning for red oak. Do you have any near you?

I've never tracked both MC and declining weight like I have in this experiment, but I tried to dry oak in here a long time ago. Oak takes twice as long in my experience. By the time it gets dry in here I have to move it back outside for the summer.

There's really a small window of opportunity for this to work well in a home heating situation. The relative humidity inside needs to be about 45% or less or you will quickly get mold on the wood. That means you need to be heating with the stove already for long enough to get the water out of the slab, foundation walls, sheetrock, studs, etc. By mid-November I'm ready to bring in the first load.

It won't dry nearly as fast because I'm not running the stove full bore and the absolute humidity of the outside air is still up there. Relative humidity outside is irrelevant, it's the temperature at that RH that dictates how much actual water vapor is in the air. When the mercury dips into the single digits, even at high outside relative humidity there is very little water in the air. When you draw that stuff in and heat it up, the RH in the living space drops like a stone and that's when the real magic begins.

Yes, you are correct about the air movement. It's a crucial factor in rapid drying, but even without the fan going, the natural convection currents move the air through the splits OK, just takes longer. I could also speed it up by using more fans, but the drying rate is dependent on the actual air speed passing over the wood. In a wood stack I suspect you would see a point of diminishing returns trying to get the fans to significantly increase the speed of the air going through the splits. I never tried, it dries fast enough as it is.
 
I have, for years now, brought 2 1/2-3 cords of air dried hardwood into my unfinished basement. I always wait until we've had a few heavy frosts (mid to late Nov.) before bringing it in. Every 5-6 wheel barrows full I spray liberally with a bug killer. Each spring I clean up my stacking area thoroughly. This supply represents my living area wood for another winter. I heat my house in late fall with another stove in the basement. Two birds/one stone, heat house/dry winter wood.

For the first 5-6 days after bringing the wood in I burn the basement stove (it's an aging smoke dragon that can handle 24 in. sticks of collected garbage wood) and run a dehumidifier. Within days the humidity in the basement drops to below 45% (since I insulated the basement totally). By Jan. the wood I'm burning in the Dutchwest is tinder dry.
 
KWillets said:
I got curious and looked up the heat of vaporization for water -- 970 btu/lb., and found a table of cord weight and "excess moisture" (above 20%) for red oak. From these figures I get a total of about 1.13M btu to get a cord down to 20% MC, compared to 24M btu energy content. So drying wood this way takes about 4.7% of the btu/cord, which isn't huge. But you're still evaporating 1165 lbs. of water in your house.

As I said earlier in the thread:

Battenkiller said:
By the time I bring wood in here in that quantity, the wood in my housing structure is so dry that is sucks it right out of the air before it has the slightest chance to condense on surfaces. It become liquid water again, but inside the structural members and sheetrock, etc. by forming hygroscopic bonds with these substrates. And when it does, it releases the heat initially lost through evaporation back into the home.

The natural infiltration rate of outside air into most homes is alarmingly high. And unless you are using an OAK with the stove (I'm not) the stove pulls a lot of it out as well. It's virtually impossible to keep that moist air in the home when the infiltration rate is at least 5 times a day in the very tightest homes. Mine's an older one, so I might have closer to 10 times the volume of my house exchange with the outside air every day. In fact, it's essential for that to occur, otherwise the RH in here would quickly climb to 100% Thankfully, that never happens.

Regardless, in this experiment, the RH in the home hit a peak of 40% after 24 hours, then dropped rapidly after that. That's way too dry for any mold or moisture problems to occur. A dew point calculation shows me that at 84ºF, the dew point is 57.1º. That means that inside surfaces have to be lower than that for condensation to occur. It does happen for a few days on the single pane windows (frost), but by day three in this case it was gone. Some folks try everything they can do to get the RH up to 40% in their homes. Even at more modest rooms temps, the dew point of 72º is still about 50º. If your windows are below that temp (and they usually are), you will get condensation on them.

Again, my 40% RH is a very short-lived event, not like someone keeping it up there 24/7 for the entire season. Bottom line is that no matter how hard I try, I'm back down to 23% RH again after just a week, and everything I stick my moisture meter into in the basement right now that's not firewood is too low to register on the meter (<6% MC)

As far as the heat losses? Well, there is no getting around that one, but it never is noticed in the home. The stove continues to put out its 20-50K of BTUs and the average daily heat loss declines so rapidly that you might really only notice anything for the first day or so. Bringing is frozen wood probably has a greater actual effect on heat loss than the evaporative losses. I take care to bring it in at an advantageous time when I can (a few days warm, sunny weather before helps), but I can't ordain what the weather will bring, so I just live with the times that the weather doesn't cooperate.

You can definitely feel the chill off all that wood, but every other burner here has the same net heat loss from bringing in cold wood by seasons end, it just happens one load at a time. Also, as I said above, a lot of the water vapor initially formed turns back to water right inside the structural materials of your home, so the same amount of heat gets released again. And then, sadly, it dries out and you lose it again for good, but at such a slow rate that it isn't perceptible.

Don't forget, using a humidifier or boiling pots of water on your stove does the same thing in the home. Water evaporation by any means removes heat from the environment. Ultra-dry air isn't good for you, so if you can do anything about it you should do so, and then accept any heat loss as a consequence of aiming for improved well-being. Moister air feels warmer anyway, so it is likely a wash in the end, comfort wise... which is the final determinant of heating effectiveness IMHO.
 
Rockey said:
The integrated temperature and relative humidity are one factor but the constant air movement via the fan is also significant.

I should have mentioned this before. Although the fan is blowing on the stack 24/7, the actual test split is just sitting on the scale, completely out of the way of the air flow coming from the fan. The somewhat twisted nature of this piece means that it is only contacting the scale tray in a couple of spots, ensuring good circulation around it, but the actual air movement passing by the surfaces is created solely by the convection currents arising from the stove. The reality of the situation is that the main load is probably drying at an even faster rate, which goes a long way to explain why it is such an incendiary marvel in the stove at this point.
 
BK,
Maybe it is too late to ask this question, but how sure are you that the oven dried piece of wood you used to determine initial moisture content and dry weight of wood was fully dried? Is one night in a 215 degree (F) oven enough to fully dry the wood? The water lost from that piece of wood is the most critical piece of data in this whole experiment, because it is the basis for your calculation of dry weight of wood in the splits. I suggest that next time you bake that wood another night or two and keep recording the weight to be sure it is stable, i.e. the wood is completely dry.

As for the energy lost from the house by evaporating water from the wood, I'd say that is energy well spent. Unlike the report we got from England, most homes in the northern US are way too dry for my comfort in the winter, so the moisture from the wood would be welcomed. I could add a lot of moisture to my house without creating anything close to a moisture problem. My knuckles are bleeding right now from the effects of dry air. Sure, I could put something on my skin to help, but I don't (lazy) and don't need to except in the winter when it is very dry in here.
 
SolarAndWood said:
You took a year off in a week and it was a week in January. That curve has to get pretty flat pretty quick doesn't it?

Not if I change the scale of the chart. %-P
 

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Wood Duck said:
Maybe it is too late to ask this question, but how sure are you that the oven dried piece of wood you used to determine initial moisture content and dry weight of wood was fully dried? Is one night in a 215 degree (F) oven enough to fully dry the wood? The water lost from that piece of wood is the most critical piece of data in this whole experiment, because it is the basis for your calculation of dry weight of wood in the splits. I suggest that next time you bake that wood another night or two and keep recording the weight to be sure it is stable, i.e. the wood is completely dry.

Good points.

What I did was to dry it out in the microwave until the weight at the end of each cycle changed very little. Then into the oven it went, and it didn't lose all that much more by the following morning. Then I stuck the MM into a few pieces and got no reading at all... less than 6% at any rate. SOP for small samples like this (I chopped them up into pieces about 3/4" x 1 1/2") is overnight at 215ºF, checked until the weight stops changing. At most, I might be a few percent off.

Even if I screwed up, the documentation of the changing weight is good information for the membership here. "Skyline" did this in his experiment using fans at much higher RH, and that's really what got the ball rolling in my head.

I'm not at all averse to doing this again, it wasn't really hard or time consuming to do. Takes infinitely more time to post the results and answer questions here. I have at least one more load of black birch coming from the same source (I'm gonna get all he'll sell me at $140/cord ;-) ). I can also ask him to throw some other species in with a load (he has hard maple, red oak, white oak, beech and cherry as well) to try to establish drying curves for them as well.

Let's wait for the data to all come in and then we can look at different ways to analyze it at that point. There are differential equations that describe wood drying rates fairly well. Maybe we can use them to compare the rates obtained from the experiment. And, as a free thinking and obviously intelligent and analytical member here, your input is always very welcome. :)
 
littlesmokey said:
An observation from a non-technical guy, but your drying will not be linear. It will be a dramatic slope to a very shallow run. As they out parts dry, the inner parts must move the moisture to the air through the already dryer wood. Also, the closer the wood comes to the ambient moisture levels, it will slow also.

Looks like an exponential decay pattern. (which was my hunch from the beginning)
 
Battenkiller said:
Quick update...
Week One ended yesterday at 9 PM. Wood was down to 8 lbs, 11 1/2 ounces. Drying is slowing to a crawl. Lost another ounce today, so it's at 22.7% MC wet-basis. Look at the graph. As it drops below 8 lbs, 6 ounces, it will cross the 20% line. Any guesses when that will be?

About 10 minutes after you get bored and throw the darned thing in the stove!
 
Battenkiller said:
It is a rare treat for me to be able to burn straight black birch. It's as good as it gets, both in the intensity and the length of the burn. Not too many coals, either... unlike black locust and hickory.

And the best part of all? It went from the log to the stove inside a week. :)

Told you this was the absolute best stuff evah, didn't I? Glad you're enjoying it.

BK, could you maybe distill all this into a paragraph of practical recommendation? My eyes really start to cross with all the numbers.
 
By the way, for folks who may be thinking of looking for some to burn, there's two species of birch in the East commonly called "black birch." One grows primarily in wet, swampy areas from mid-Atlantic states south, the other in upland areas mostly in the northeast. No idea how the swamp one burns, but the "black birch" BK and I burn, sometimes also called "cherry birch," is the other kind. I gather the swamp one (betula nigra) has pretty elaborately peeling swaths of bark and is apparently sometimes used as an ornamental tree because of it. The one here (betula lenta) mostly holds onto the outer layers of its bark.
 
gyrfalcon said:
Battenkiller said:
It is a rare treat for me to be able to burn straight black birch. It's as good as it gets, both in the intensity and the length of the burn. Not too many coals, either... unlike black locust and hickory.

And the best part of all? It went from the log to the stove inside a week. :)

Told you this was the absolute best stuff evah, didn't I? Glad you're enjoying it.

BK, could you maybe distill all this into a paragraph of practical recommendation? My eyes really start to cross with all the numbers.

Hey, buddy! I was thinking of you and your little stove (still sure you don't want to sell it to me?) when I started burning this stuff. Now I get it. You're right, this stuff kicks ass! I've always found some mixed in with other wood, but never found anyone who'd give me a straight load of it until this year. Yes, sugar maple takes a distant second place to this stuff.

I always knew what the BTU charts tell you about it, but they don't tell the whole tale. Even though I still like my shagbark and my black locust, this is far and away the best wood I've ever burned. Can't explain why it doesn't top the BTU charts. Coaling properties are just right, ash residue is low, and it puts out the heat!

I'll try to get together a little summary in the next day or so. Hope it will help you.
 
Another thing I wanted to check was how much humidity this would add, given that outside air is brought through the house to burn the wood. The stoichiometric ratio for dry wood is 6.1, so if a cord of 20% mc oak is 3757 lbs. (got that from a
table somewhere), it takes .8*3757*6.1 = 18334 lbs. of (dry?) air to burn. If you evaporate 1165 lbs of water into that air, that's 6.35% by weight. In other words if you seal off the house and only take in the minimum air for burning, you would have to add 6.35% by weight (444 grains/lb) to the air mass, which is actually several times 90% RH (100 grains/lb) at 70F. The minimum stove airflow alone would not be enough to remove the water vapor. Darn.

However many stoves burn at higher ratios, eg, 35:1, so I doubt if humidity would be a huge problem. There are also standards about how often air is supposed to be exchanged in a house, which I don't know offhand.

I guess the lesson is that it's technically possible to raise RH to mold-growing levels, so it's worth watching the RH meter, but normal ventilation will probably handle it.
 
Battenkiller said:
gyrfalcon said:
Battenkiller said:
It is a rare treat for me to be able to burn straight black birch. It's as good as it gets, both in the intensity and the length of the burn. Not too many coals, either... unlike black locust and hickory.

And the best part of all? It went from the log to the stove inside a week. :)

Told you this was the absolute best stuff evah, didn't I? Glad you're enjoying it.

BK, could you maybe distill all this into a paragraph of practical recommendation? My eyes really start to cross with all the numbers.

Hey, buddy! I was thinking of you and your little stove (still sure you don't want to sell it to me?) when I started burning this stuff. Now I get it. You're right, this stuff kicks ass! I've always found some mixed in with other wood, but never found anyone who'd give me a straight load of it until this year. Yes, sugar maple takes a distant second place to this stuff.

I always knew what the BTU charts tell you about it, but they don't tell the whole tale. Even though I still like my shagbark and my black locust, this is far and away the best wood I've ever burned. Can't explain why it doesn't top the BTU charts. Coaling properties are just right, ash residue is low, and it puts out the heat!

I'll try to get together a little summary in the next day or so. Hope it will help you.

Hey, you're not all that far away. If I ever manage to get the coin together to get a bigger stove and need to dispose of this one, I'll let ya know.

It's counterintuitive until you really think about it, but you perforce have to closely observe and learn a whole lot more about not just stove operation but also the burning qualities of the wood and the size of the pieces and how the fire is built when you're seriously understoved. Even a 50-degree difference in stovetop temp is big, and hard as heck to achieve with such a small firebox. BBirch almost makes it easy.

The coin problem also makes it difficult to get more than a year's supply in at a time, so I seem to be doomed to perpetually dealing with not quite fully seasoned wood, and your summary would be very much appreciated here.
 
gyrfalcon said:
BK, could you maybe distill all this into a paragraph of practical recommendation?

Since BK asked me to challenge his work, I'll see if I can light two fires with one match, and provide my own summary of BK's work, for debate, discussion, etc.

I'll present a quick summary, followed by an explanation.

Summary:

Indoor drying has the potential to dry green wood to the 20% dry-basis moisture content (which is what standard moisture meters read, and what most consider the threshold for convenient clean burning) in approximately 6 weeks, at the expense of about 5% less net energy out of the wood than if it were dried outdoors.

Detail

First I'll present my analysis of drying time, then net energy loss.

Drying Time

I'm simply eyeballing the red, dry-basis line on the drying chart, and guesstimating where it will cross the 20% line. Given BK's analytical chops, I'm sure he can fit a curve to that data and tell us at what point it crosses the 20% level in nothing flat. BK? We can also wait and see when it gets to that point.

Net Energy


KWillets Noted:

KWillets said:
I got curious and looked up the heat of vaporization for water -- 970 btu/lb., and found a table of cord weight and "excess moisture" (above 20%) for red oak. From these figures I get a total of about 1.13M btu to get a cord down to 20% MC, compared to 24M btu energy content. So drying wood this way takes about 4.7% of the btu/cord, which isn't huge. But you're still evaporating 1165 lbs. of water in your house.

So the bottom line is it takes about 5% of the energy available in the wood to dry it to 20% moisture content. This energy has to come from somewhere--outdoors it comes from the sun, indoors it comes from whatever you are using to heat your house. This may not be perceptible, but it is a fact--barring extreme measures, the water evaporated from the wood will leave the house as vapor, and the energy required to vaporize it leaves along with it.

Evaporative cooling may not be intuitive for wood, but it certainly is for humans. This effect is why we sweat, and why the air feels so cold after swimming, showering, etc. It takes energy to change water from a liquid to a vapor, and that lost energy cools off you, your room, etc. In hot and dry Arizona, evaporative (or "swamp") coolers are the traditional way to cool during the summer--air is circulated over a damp pad, and back into the house. As it passes over the pad, it evaporates water and in the process becomes cooler and more humid. It is quite effective.

In the case of drying wood indoors, drying the wood turns the water in the wood into vapor, which cools the house. Regardless of where or how many times that vapor condenses, as long as it eventually leaves the house in vapor form, the energy required to evaporate it is lost.

An example of this is super-efficient direct vent gas furnaces. To get the last bit of efficiency, they condense the water in the already cool flue gas, and drain it out as a liquid, thereby reclaiming the heat of vaporization. In the case of indoor wood drying, I can think of no efficient way of condensing the water removed from the wood out of the air before that air leaves the house envelope--even if it condenses in the walls, it eventually leaves as vapor, taking its heat with it. Unless of course the 1165 lbs of water/cord stays in your walls until Spring, in which case you have a whole other set of problems.

Finally, my analysis correctly ignores all the factors that are shared by indoor and outdoor drying. For example, both cases require the same amount of energy to bring wood brought inside up to room temperature and evaporate whatever surface moisture happens to be on it.

Okay, that's it for the analysis. On a personal note, I enjoyed pondering this, and it helped distract me from the pain of my workout. In school, I was known for caring more about a theory's consequences in concrete application than tweaking it's abstract equations. I consider the math and theory a very valuable means to the end of applicability, and get little enjoyment out of them for their own sake. This was called "picking the low-hanging fruit", and was either an asset or an annoyance, depending on one's priorities. ;)

Anyway, I hope this is useful, and invite questions, comments, concerns, challenges, etc.

My thanks to BK for his fascinating, rigorous, and educational experiment! :coolsmile:
 
(Curious) George said:
educational experiment! :coolsmile:

Educational experiment? I've been trying to figure out how to build something that I can fill with the tractor and Battenkiln dry with a wood furnace. That would eliminate moving it and stacking it in the shed on the windward side of the house, waiting a year, moving it and stacking it again in the shed on the leeward side of the house, tossing it in the bucket and carrying it to the stove. It would also mean I wouldn't have to scrounge any wood for 5 years.
 
SolarAndWood said:
(Curious) George said:
educational experiment! :coolsmile:

Educational experiment? I've been trying to figure out how to build something that I can fill with the tractor and Battenkiln dry with a wood furnace. That would eliminate moving it and stacking it in the shed on the windward side of the house, waiting a year, moving it and stacking it again in the shed on the leeward side of the house, tossing it in the bucket and carrying it to the stove. It would also mean I wouldn't have to scrounge any wood for 5 years.

Sounds good to me. As I said, I enjoy applicable experiments, so "experiment" is not a criticism--it sounds like you're eager to be educated.

So you don't have enough sunny storage area, and are waiting with bated breath for the red line to cross 20%? :)
 
I have plenty of sun and lots of wind. Always looking for a better way though.
 

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(Curious) George said:
Indoor drying has the potential to dry green wood to the 20% (dry-basis) moisture content (that most consider the threshold for convenient clean burning) in approximately 6 weeks

Um, six weeks? He's at something like 22 percent in one week, unless I'm reading him cross-eyed, no? If that's the case, seems to me there's no super-compelling need to wait another month to lose that last 2 percent. If we're only talking a week to get green wood down that far, it's a much more practical enterprise for those of us with first-floor stoves to bring in a week's worth at a time.

I've lost track of how large these splits are, if I ever knew. BK says "medium," but that's like "medium potato" in a cookbook to me, depends on your context.

How much faster would this be if your splits were, say, 2 or 3 inches, and/or shorter? And does it make any difference what the moisture content is to begin with?

I have a couple days' stack of really small (1 and 2-inch, 14-inches-long) splits of not green but mostly not really ready for primetime beech sitting just outside the safe range of my stove, and I've been trying to figure out whether it's much drier after just three or four days or it's my imagination or I've lost track of where I put the dry stuff I do have. (Yes, I have a moisture meter somewhere, but haven't been able to put my hands on it. But by this time, I can recognize roughly how dry the wood is without it.)
 
SolarAndWood said:
I have plenty of sun and lots of wind. Always looking for a better way though.

Yeah, so do I. What I don't have is a woodlot or access to one, or the cash money to buy several years' worth of firewood in advance so it has time to really dry well.
 
gyrfalcon said:
(Curious) George said:
Indoor drying has the potential to dry green wood to the 20% (dry-basis) moisture content (that most consider the threshold for convenient clean burning) in approximately 6 weeks

Um, six weeks? He's at something like 22 percent in one week, unless I'm reading him cross-eyed, no?

The red line on the chart is for the dry-basis moisture content, which is what moisture meters read, and currently stands at about 29%. The line is also curving convex (dropping less rapidly with time). So six weeks is my best guess, eyeballing the red line. Remember, this is starting with very wet wood, so six weeks is nothing to sneeze at.

I'm sure BK could fit a curve to it and estimate the 20% point in a snap.
 
(Curious) George said:
The red line on the chart is for the dry-basis moisture content, which is what moisture meters read, and currently stands at about 29%.

Oh, HECK. That went right past me.
 
SolarAndWood said:
I have plenty of sun and lots of wind. Always looking for a better way though.

Then why not split and store it in the sun, until you need it?

I'm impressed by your wood. Oh, that sounded wrong.
 
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