Electric Boiler as Backup?

[joecool85]

How do you guys feel about using an electric boiler as backup heat? I'm planning on having enough storage to give me 24 hours of heat and I hardly ever am gone more than just during the day - but its nice having a backup in case something happens with the wood burner, or for some reason we are gone a day or two. Right now I have an oil furnace, so to start with I will use that as my backup heat source. But it is almost 30 years old, and when it dies I don't really want to buy another one. If I went with an electric boiler I could get rid of the oil tank and seal up my chimney vent. Only thing is that if I was gone for long it could get pricey. It would cost me $75/day if it's 0 degrees out, $20/day when it's 45 or so outside. Theoretically, the electric would never run unless it was an emergency. So the price seems reasonable. Also as an added bonus, there is zero chance of carbon monoxide building up in the house (wood heat is outside).

What do you guys think?

 

[killick]

joe,I'm seeing a lot of electric boilers installed as the primary heat source.With the water storage you could heat during the off peak hours.Check with your electric utility to see if they have that option.Up here you can save up to 50% by only drawing in the off peak.

Earl

 

[Gooserider]

It would work, though as you said, it could get pricey... You could save some by setting up the controls to run it at "keep from freezing" temps as opposed to normal house temps.

Do you have any other options for energy like propane or natural gas? If so, I'd be tempted to look into using one of the "instant water heaters" as a backup option...

Gooserider

 

[joecool85]

It would work, though as you said, it could get pricey... You could save some by setting up the controls to run it at "keep from freezing" temps as opposed to normal house temps.

Do you have any other options for energy like propane or natural gas? If so, I'd be tempted to look into using one of the "instant water heaters" as a backup option...

Gooserider

We have propane available around here. I'm thinking I'll probably stick with oil just because its nice and cheap, and that way if I sell the house later folks could just use the oil whereas with electric, who in their right mind would heat primarily off that? I suppose in some areas it would make sense, but we pay $0.17 kwh here - adds up quick.

I hadn't even heard of electric boilers till yesterday, so it peaked my interest. And as a strictly backup heat source I could see it working. Still something to think about, with any luck my oil boiler will last another 5-10 years so it gives me time to consider my options.

 

[easternbob]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

 

[joecool85]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

Good to hear that it does work as I expected. I think if I go with a 300 gallon thermal storage (only giving me 8 hours during the coldest days and one day during the shoulder season) I will probably run an oil backup. If I decide to "go big or go home" and run a 1,200 gallon storage setup, giving me 32 hours on the coldest of days, and 4 days during the shoulder season, I think I would be likely to go with an electric backup. Space is a concern of mine because my basement isn't that large and half of it is only 5' tall ceiling height. We have to do some foundation repair and replace one of the "short" walls (brick, caving in), if we dig our basement deeper to match the newer side, that would give me a lot more room and I could run a nice big tank.

Lots to think about for sure.

 

[heaterman]

It would work, though as you said, it could get pricey... You could save some by setting up the controls to run it at "keep from freezing" temps as opposed to normal house temps.

Do you have any other options for energy like propane or natural gas? If so, I'd be tempted to look into using one of the "instant water heaters" as a backup option...

Gooserider

We have propane available around here. I'm thinking I'll probably stick with oil just because its nice and cheap, and that way if I sell the house later folks could just use the oil whereas with electric, who in their right mind would heat primarily off that? I suppose in some areas it would make sense, but we pay $0.17 kwh here - adds up quick.
I hadn't even heard of electric boilers till yesterday, so it peaked my interest. And as a strictly backup heat source I could see it working. Still something to think about, with any luck my oil boiler will last another 5-10 years so it gives me time to consider my options.

WOW!! 17/kwh is a killer! Still if you intend to use it only as a backup or for when you are gone for a week or two, the lower installed cost of the electric along with other advantages you mentioned, do make it pretty attractive. I guess the only thing i would consider is a what if scenario ...............consider what would happen if you had to rely on the electric for an extended period of time such as not being able to burn wood due to a physical disability or illness. The advantages of the elctric would be eaten up pretty quickly.
If you do have off peak and some storage capability it still may not be too bad. I know that there are Garn users out west who have never had a fire in their Garn even though they use it for primary heat. They are close to huge hydro dams and can buy off peak for 2 cents/kw. Hot water is made at night with the electric element kit available and they work off storage during on peak times. $.02/KWH........I wish.........

 

[joecool85]

It would work, though as you said, it could get pricey... You could save some by setting up the controls to run it at "keep from freezing" temps as opposed to normal house temps.

Do you have any other options for energy like propane or natural gas? If so, I'd be tempted to look into using one of the "instant water heaters" as a backup option...

Gooserider

We have propane available around here. I'm thinking I'll probably stick with oil just because its nice and cheap, and that way if I sell the house later folks could just use the oil whereas with electric, who in their right mind would heat primarily off that? I suppose in some areas it would make sense, but we pay $0.17 kwh here - adds up quick.
I hadn't even heard of electric boilers till yesterday, so it peaked my interest. And as a strictly backup heat source I could see it working. Still something to think about, with any luck my oil boiler will last another 5-10 years so it gives me time to consider my options.

WOW!! 17/kwh is a killer! Still if you intend to use it only as a backup or for when you are gone for a week or two, the lower installed cost of the electric along with other advantages you mentioned, do make it pretty attractive. I guess the only thing i would consider is a what if scenario ...............consider what would happen if you had to rely on the electric for an extended period of time such as not being able to burn wood due to a physical disability or illness. The advantages of the elctric would be eaten up pretty quickly.
If you do have off peak and some storage capability it still may not be too bad. I know that there are Garn users out west who have never had a fire in their Garn even though they use it for primary heat. They are close to huge hydro dams and can buy off peak for 2 cents/kw. Hot water is made at night with the electric element kit available and they work off storage during on peak times. $.02/KWH........I wish.........

My wife and I are modern homesteaders, and she has no problem loading wood. I suppose if both of us were laid up it could be an issue, but those odds are quite low. $0.17 kwh doesn't seem to bad to me, but it's what I'm use to. I also only spend $50/month on my electric though. Since I have the oil for now and will use it as backup to start with, I can see how much I'm using that. If after several years (when it will need to be replaced anyway) it turns out we aren't really using it much at all, then maybe I'll go electric.

The only other thing I'm worried about is that if we decide to sell the house it may be a turn-off to a lot of folks since so many people like an easy heat source (IE - not wood), and living off the electric would kill your bills. I suppose worst case we throw in an oil or propane boiler before listing the house for sale if that seems to be an issue.

 

[Gooserider]

I was thinking that if you were already using propane or natural gas for cooking and / or hot water, it might make sense to use it for the backup heat as well... Or my understanding is that they do make fairly small and low cost oil boilers that could replace your existing unit when it finally dies... I think it is a good idea to have a good backup system, and would note that many mortgage and insurance companies require one, but I am not real enthusiastic about using electric for heating, unless you are in one of those unusually low cost situations like Heaterman mentioned.

Another thing to keep in mind when pricing out an electric option is what additional wiring and service upgrades you might need to support it... Depending on your existing service, you might end up needing to upgrade your entire panel and so forth, in addition to running the heavy gauge (expensive) wiring needed...

Gooserider

 

[joecool85]

I was thinking that if you were already using propane or natural gas for cooking and / or hot water, it might make sense to use it for the backup heat as well... Or my understanding is that they do make fairly small and low cost oil boilers that could replace your existing unit when it finally dies... I think it is a good idea to have a good backup system, and would note that many mortgage and insurance companies require one, but I am not real enthusiastic about using electric for heating, unless you are in one of those unusually low cost situations like Heaterman mentioned.

Another thing to keep in mind when pricing out an electric option is what additional wiring and service upgrades you might need to support it... Depending on your existing service, you might end up needing to upgrade your entire panel and so forth, in addition to running the heavy gauge (expensive) wiring needed...

Gooserider

Our stove is electric as well as our dryer and fridge, and our dhw is via a coil in the oil boiler for right now. I talked it over with the wife today, and as much as it would be a real slick install using electric as backup, it does seem to make more sense to just replace the oil boiler when it does quit. This would also help resale, and if for some reason we had to rely on it for a few days it wouldn't kill the pocketbook. I do think the old 120,000btu will be replaced with a 70-80,000 unit, since our house only needs 50,000 btu when it's -20F outside anyway.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

====================
Bob
I would be very interested to know where you got the Electric boiler and the price.
THe ones i have seen are over a Grand ,which is a lot of dough for a backup system that may never be used. Im thinking a $200 electric hot water heater would work except for the fact that if its filled with water and sitting cold it would rust out in about a year.

 

[Gooserider]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

====================
Bob
I would be very interested to know where you got the Electric boiler and the price.
THe ones i have seen are over a Grand ,which is a lot of dough for a backup system that may never be used. Im thinking a $200 electric hot water heater would work except for the fact that if its filled with water and sitting cold it would rust out in about a year.

Theory says it shouldn't rust out - as rust requires 02, and if you have a closed / pressurized system, there shouldn't be any 02 in the water to make it rust... In addition most tanks these days are glass lined, which should help keep them from rusting. This is more protection than the black iron pipes and so forth in a typical hydronic system, and you don't see those rusting....

Gooserider

 

[joecool85]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

====================
Bob
I would be very interested to know where you got the Electric boiler and the price.
THe ones i have seen are over a Grand ,which is a lot of dough for a backup system that may never be used. Im thinking a $200 electric hot water heater would work except for the fact that if its filled with water and sitting cold it would rust out in about a year.

$200 water heater would give you whatever it has in it for backup heat (IE 30-50 gallons) worth of warm water, but the coils on them are so weak they wouldn't be able to heat your house at all. Maybe enough to keep it from freezing, but that'd be about it.

 

[killick]

joe,I agree. Once you had drawn down the supply of hot water from the heater the recharge time is very slow. The electric boilers are sized to provide the BTU's needed on demand. I inspected a new house with in-floor hydronic heat where the heating contractor had ganged together five 80 gallon electric water heaters to provide the heat and thermal storage. They were set up to draw power in the off peak hours and thus make use of the discounted power. I don't believe it ever really worked as designed.

Earl

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

====================
Bob
I would be very interested to know where you got the Electric boiler and the price.
THe ones i have seen are over a Grand ,which is a lot of dough for a backup system that may never be used. Im thinking a $200 electric hot water heater would work except for the fact that if its filled with water and sitting cold it would rust out in about a year.

Theory says it shouldn't rust out - as rust requires 02, and if you have a closed / pressurized system, there shouldn't be any 02 in the water to make it rust... In addition most tanks these days are glass lined, which should help keep them from rusting. This is more protection than the black iron pipes and so forth in a typical hydronic system, and you don't see those rusting....

Gooserider

=======================
Had a 30 Gal ELectric rust out in about 1 year,i had it filled with water but it was not turned on all winter as my boiler heats my domestic HW in winter. Im thinking that one of the fittings was leaking slightly and with no heat to burn off the moisture it just rusted from around the fitting. I did not actually see the rust but it started leaking between the tank and the styro insulation.

 

[easternbob]

Trump,
You are right the elec. boiler is a little over a $1000. Can't think of the brand name right off the top of my head. We were build a new house, so I had a blank slate to work with. Figured I needed some sort of backup and this seemed like a good route for me. If you need/want the brand I can look when I get home.
Bob

 

[Gooserider]

Joecool,
I have an elec. boiler as the backup to my boiler, works good. I've only used it once when I was away on vacation (haven't gotten the elec. bill yet). Instalation couldn't be much easier. The whole unit is less than 24 inches long and less than 8" in diameter. No flue, no tanks to fill, no CO. So long as you say you aren't using it all the time I think it is a great option. If I remember correctly it draws 63 amps if all three elements are on at the same time, so make sure you have room in your panel for that kind of draw.
Bob

====================
Bob
I would be very interested to know where you got the Electric boiler and the price.
THe ones i have seen are over a Grand ,which is a lot of dough for a backup system that may never be used. Im thinking a $200 electric hot water heater would work except for the fact that if its filled with water and sitting cold it would rust out in about a year.

Theory says it shouldn't rust out - as rust requires 02, and if you have a closed / pressurized system, there shouldn't be any 02 in the water to make it rust... In addition most tanks these days are glass lined, which should help keep them from rusting. This is more protection than the black iron pipes and so forth in a typical hydronic system, and you don't see those rusting....

Gooserider

=======================
Had a 30 Gal ELectric rust out in about 1 year,i had it filled with water but it was not turned on all winter as my boiler heats my domestic HW in winter. Im thinking that one of the fittings was leaking slightly and with no heat to burn off the moisture it just rusted from around the fitting. I did not actually see the rust but it started leaking between the tank and the styro insulation.

Would seem to me that the primary fault there was the leak, not the fact that it was turned off... Note that a leak is also considered a problem in a closed hydronic system as it allows the introduction of fresh O2 rich water to the system... In addition, a leak can be a problem in and of itself, just because of the wearing effect of water passing through it, which tends to make it worse.

A tank failure due to rusting from the outside in, is not a direct result of the water in the tank not being heated.

At the same time, the simplest way to plug an electric WH into a system for a backup application would be to simply put it in series with one of the boiler or load lines, so that hot water would be passing through it on a regular basis all the time when the heating system is running - so the tank would still be hot, just not using the elements...

Gooserider

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Gooserider
Would seem to me that the primary fault there was the leak, not the fact that it was turned off... Note that a leak is also considered a problem in a closed hydronic system as it allows the introduction of fresh O2 rich water to the system... In addition, a leak can be a problem in and of itself, just because of the wearing effect of water passing through it, which tends to make it worse.

A tank failure due to rusting from the outside in, is not a direct result of the water in the tank not being heated.

At the same time, the simplest way to plug an electric WH into a system for a backup application would be to simply put it in series with one of the boiler or load lines, so that hot water would be passing through it on a regular basis all the time when the heating system is running - so the tank would still be hot, just not using the elements...

Gooserider[/quote]

Thanks for the input Gooserider
I see you have a few Wood stoves your not too happy with, I have a harman downdraft non cat stove and i get no creosote at all. Emissions are less than 1 Gram an hour,very low by EPA standards.
its a 525 LB 3 CU FT firebox that will easily last overnight between fillings. Every time i check the stove pipe and the chimney ,just about nothing there. Its easy on the wood too as i heated a small house i was remodeling all winter an about 2.5 -3 cords of wood.
Regards

 

[Gooserider]

Gooserider
Would seem to me that the primary fault there was the leak, not the fact that it was turned off... Note that a leak is also considered a problem in a closed hydronic system as it allows the introduction of fresh O2 rich water to the system... In addition, a leak can be a problem in and of itself, just because of the wearing effect of water passing through it, which tends to make it worse.

A tank failure due to rusting from the outside in, is not a direct result of the water in the tank not being heated.

At the same time, the simplest way to plug an electric WH into a system for a backup application would be to simply put it in series with one of the boiler or load lines, so that hot water would be passing through it on a regular basis all the time when the heating system is running - so the tank would still be hot, just not using the elements...

Gooserider

Thanks for the input Gooserider
I see you have a few Wood stoves your not too happy with, I have a harman downdraft non cat stove and i get no creosote at all. Emissions are less than 1 Gram an hour,very low by EPA standards.
its a 525 LB 3 CU FT firebox that will easily last overnight between fillings. Every time i check the stove pipe and the chimney ,just about nothing there. Its easy on the wood too as i heated a small house i was remodeling all winter an about 2.5 -3 cords of wood.
Regards

I'm very not happy with the VC. The Model Z stove is actually the one the VC replaced, and for a smoke dragon is pretty decent. I just don't use it much because we don't use the basement all that much. It is odd, in that I seem to burn less wood in the VC, and get more heat, but it also leaves a LOT more crap in the chimney...

While I could replace the VC, my tendency at this point is to keep nursing it along until we can afford to do a gasifier boiler and do a system that will heat the entire house comfortably, which I don't think any stove could do... If I do that then the VC wouldn't get used all that often, and the less than ideal burning properties becomes a non-issue...

Gooserider

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Regards[/quote]
I'm very not happy with the VC. The Model Z stove is actually the one the VC replaced, and for a smoke dragon is pretty decent. I just don't use it much because we don't use the basement all that much. It is odd, in that I seem to burn less wood in the VC, and get more heat, but it also leaves a LOT more crap in the chimney...

While I could replace the VC, my tendency at this point is to keep nursing it along until we can afford to do a gasifier boiler and do a system that will heat the entire house comfortably, which I don't think any stove could do... If I do that then the VC wouldn't get used all that often, and the less than ideal burning properties becomes a non-issue...

Gooserider[/quote]
================
Iv been checking out those gasifiers ,THey are very interesting especially the Stainless steel ones that claim to need no storage I have a great little coal stoker form y home heat, as im sitting on top of one of the few areas in the country with anthracite hard coal and ist pretty cheap locally. Spending about $750 a year heating a 3000 SF home only 70% insulated. Also provides the Domestic HW I use my Harman wood stove to heat homes i renovate as that where all the fuel is, as in old wood coming out of the home as well as some split oak to supplement.
Regards

 

[HydrordyH]

Trump,
You are right the elec. boiler is a little over a $1000. Can't think of the brand name right off the top of my head. We were build a new house, so I had a blank slate to work with. Figured I needed some sort of backup and this seemed like a good route for me. If you need/want the brand I can look when I get home.
Bob

Bob,
I would be interested to know the brand. I'm planning new construction this spring and still unsure of the back-up. I really do not want a propane tank in the yard and we have relitively low electricity where I will be at (.07/kw). I will also check into off peak hours to see if they have them. I did not know they made electric boilers. Great thread. Thanks.

 

[easternbob]

Trump,
It's a Laing boiler. In the picture it is to the right of the expansion tank. I didn't do the hookup of all pex and pumps etc. I hired someone to do that. He was the one who recommended the elec. boiler. I originally thought I would go with a small propane boiler but with the cost of the unit and install it was cheaper to go this route. Plus I don't have anything else in the house to run off gas so getting someone to fill a tank without a contract might have gotten pretty expensive.
Bob

 

[joecool85]

Trump,
It's a Laing boiler. In the picture it is to the right of the expansion tank. I didn't do the hookup of all pex and pumps etc. I hired someone to do that. He was the one who recommended the elec. boiler. I originally thought I would go with a small propane boiler but with the cost of the unit and install it was cheaper to go this route. Plus I don't have anything else in the house to run off gas so getting someone to fill a tank without a contract might have gotten pretty expensive.
Bob

Sweet looking setup man! I have to admit, I'm a bit jealous.

 

[easternbob]

I have to admit now that we are moved in it doesn't look this neat. Misc. things piled here and there. But you know it still works great, the house is always toasty warm and we have the elec. boiler turned off, it's all wood.