Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[tradergordo]

I own a Lopi, an old EPA Lopi, I will buy another stove (or three)in my lifetime. At this point, a VC is not in the running. For crying out loud... glowing red is not a safety concern? Is normal? No response from the company? many reputable forum members dumping stoves? No thanks.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Its possible the stove is defective although VC claims its normal (and if you look carefully at the design of the stove, which I have, you can see exactly what they describe in that letter - the blasting secondary combustion is basically directed into the cast iron in the rear corners of the stove).

I do think the dealer should personally go check it out, but perhaps they don't think its their responsibility? At any rate - we don't know who installed this stove or it if was done properly, we don't know what type of wood is being burned (could be excessively dry), we don't know if all gaskets and joints have been checked (doors easy to test - should be no gaps around flue connection, etc.). We don't know if he has an excessive draft problem (he described a 31+ foot (flue+chimney) straight up exhaust - that sounds suspect to me!). Finally, it isn't even real clear as to what exactly is glowing - he said something about thin sheet metal and not the cast iron? Do you have pictures?? Has the paint come off? (can you even see glowing if the paint hasn't come off?)

As for "many reputable forum members dumping stoves" -- well the only guy so far that I've read about who got rid of his everburn stove was a new forum member with few posts, who had what seemed to me and others to be a problem with his install (specifically a gap around the flue) and even he didn't report any glowing parts. I've been pretty happy with my everburn Dutchwest and have not had any overfiring problems or glowing parts. Although I did initially have problems with the gasket around the front door - when the paint cured in the initial firings, the gasket stuck to the cast iron, and pulled out - this could actually be the cause of overfiring for some people - even if the gasket has not pulled away enough to make the problem obvious, it could be loose. This is also something that can easily be checked and fixed.

 

[Harley]

On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull "blood red" glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar. These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.

Wow...

Ok, so assume you burn 24/7 for the most part and re-load every, say 6 hours? This thing is going to be glowing "blood red" for 4 to 8 hours per day. I'm not a metal guy, but I know some of you are..... doesn't this put a lot of stress on the metal?

"safety or operational issues".... strange he conveniently left out the word "warranty"

 

[cmcramer]

Seems to me that the letter from CFM/VC acknowledges a design/structural issue. Mr. Davidson doesn't say a thing about overly dry wood, gaps in the flue connection, missing gaskets, or any other installation errors. He does state that the glowing parts have been "reinforced." Sounds like they engineered the stove to glow red! Wow.

And by the way, the visible "Outer Back" piece of a my non-cat VC Encore is not cast iron. It appears to be made of a material similar to the lower heat shield....similar to single wall flue pipe. (Guess I don't know the proper terminology.) It's just bolted onto the "Inner Back" cast iron piece with an air gap in between, and seems to function as a heat shield. And yes, the paint has come off the glowing "Outer Back" .

I asked earlier: if my straight 31' flue is too much draft, should I put a damper in it? CFM/VC tech support said they are asked that question often, and the answer is NO WAY.

Don't understand why.

 

[Andre B.]

Sounds to me like the secondary burn chamber is not large enough to handle a full load of wood.

Make primary burning chamber smaller or increase the size of the secondary burn chamber so that at high burn rates the gases have a longer time in which to complete burning.
Also need a longer refractory lined transition area between the secondary chamber and the bare metal heat exchanger to more.
Sound like there is not much in the way of heat exchanger area between the secondary chamber and the stove pipe anyway. Kind of one of those "Here is your sign" moments, great granddad was smarter then we thought when he was writing all those engineering books.

Classic example of what happens when the marketing department gets to tell engineering what to do. Make it hold more wood and make it smaller.
But you will never get the company to admit that.

 

[tradergordo]

cmcramer - not having seen the stove - it sure SOUNDS to me like you've got a SERIOUS defect there, in fact, I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked. You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below. I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition. On the dutchwest, there are just two Phillips screws holding the rear shroud to the rear of the stove, its simple to remove. Note that in the letter they sent, they did NOT describe what you have described here. If in fact the stove has been damaged, it would be nice to still try to get to the bottom of WHY it was damaged, and again any of the possibilities for overfiring that I previously mentioned could have contributed. As for putting dampers in super long flue/chimney setups - I don't really know about this, I too have seen other pros caution against this, although I'm not sure why - perhaps they have blockage risks? Don't know. But the 31 foot straight up exhaust is going to create an awful lot of draft...

Also - what is the gauge and brand of the single wall flue? The other person who had problems I think was using cheap flue materials, and it sounds like you migth be also - I wonder if this could also be a factor? (for example if there was a gap, either at installation, or a gap that may have formed in the high heat at the flue collar area - which in turn contributed to overfiring)

Seems to me that the letter from CFM/VC acknowledges a design/structural issue. Mr. Davidson doesn't say a thing about overly dry wood, gaps in the flue connection, missing gaskets, or any other installation errors. He does state that the glowing parts have been "reinforced." Sounds like they engineered the stove to glow red! Wow.

And by the way, the visible "Outer Back" piece of a my non-cat VC Encore is not cast iron. It appears to be made of a material similar to the lower heat shield....similar to single wall flue pipe. (Guess I don't know the proper terminology.) It's just bolted onto the "Inner Back" cast iron piece with an air gap in between, and seems to function as a heat shield. And yes, the paint has come off the glowing "Outer Back" .

I asked earlier: if my straight 31' flue is too much draft, should I put a damper in it? CFM/VC tech support said they are asked that question often, and the answer is NO WAY.

Don't understand why.

 

[mikeathens]

Gordo, relatively new poster, yes. New woodburner, no. I have been burning much longer than you and with more stoves than you. You are more familiar with the everburn, but have you had experience with other stoves? Comon. Glowing red? A combustor that takes an hour with each load to get working if lucky? Combustor that, other times, gets going so hot that it can't be controlled, even closing primary air as much as you can? You try a catalytic, or Herthstone, or other catalytic or non-cat with burn tubes, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Sounds like maybe you have "ideal" conditions" for this stove? You are probably one in 100 that does. Who ever heard of putting too much wood in the stove? When I'm ready for bed and I have a half burned load, I'm not going to sit up and babysit my stove for another 3 hours waiting for it to burn down further. Maybe you have become accustomed to the inconsistencies and difficulties with the everburn, and don't know any other way? Sorry if I'm wrong, but I believe you said this is your first stove you got this past fall?

This stove has issues for some people, and that's that. Not operator error, probably not installation issues. And trust me, I NEVER use cheap flue or other materials. I checked EVERY gasket on mine, and only missed the connector pipe issue because I never learned otherwise from dealer, installer, or inspector. MAYBE the flue collar/connector pipe does make things heat up faster when not properly sealed, but fixing that did not make the stove run better or easier to operate. I don't even know if it fixed anything - I was sick of the stove, got a Hearthstone Heritage with burn tubes and - whoa, wait a minute...why does it work perfect with my same installation? I won't ever buy one of these "everburns" again. To expensive for the hassles. These are problems one should have with a $150 Lowes stove where you can say "you get what you pay for". With everburn? $1200?

 

[cmcramer]

I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked. You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below. I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition.

Really? 4 weeks old; glowed red 8-10 times for 30-45 minutes each; that will crack a $2000 VC cast iron woodstove?

Note that in the letter they sent, they did NOT describe what you have described here

Good point. Different location of glowing red.



Thanks, I'm listening hard!

 

[elkimmeg]

I earlier questioned this flue collar connection and he see a good amount of crimpimg, so does not have a good seal
Every indentation of the crimping causes an air leak just above his area that is glowing red %/8" has to be cut from the crimp edge and inserted to the rib above the crimping.
before I seat it I run a bead of gasket cement on the lowed rib and inset the connector pipe to the rib above the crimping. Danm who is inspecting these stoves, if 1/2" or more crimping is exposed. This is the first connection I inspect. Before he takes legal action, I would highly recomend that the stove be installed correctly and that means a correct flue collar to connector pipe.

IT is common for manufactures to only make the stove collar 1" deep but crimping is 1.5" long. No joint in the connector pipe should one see any crimpimg. It 's code and grounds to fail inspections. Pipe manufactures do make a stove collar started piece just to solve the shorter aoolaince flue collar depth... The last person that complained had the same setup and admits the stove calmed down once the laek was resolved. So now one poster thkes that one poster as groungs for all to jumpship from the everburn technology?

Let me clue you in VC is noi the only stove manufacturer using the technology called Ever burn. I quess we all should jump ship on Jpotuls because a recent poster over fired his.

then we all shouild jump ship on Pe summits because the guy in NY with a poor direct connection can't get heat For that matter please no one but a pellet stove some part might wear out or the owner does not scrape the burn pot. Don't buy Englanders because a recent poster can get his to run hot enough in a shared chimney burning wet wood. Don't by A Dell or Sony or Apple computer because Somy made defective barreries Honda has a re call Toyota has one so don't buy any of those manufactures products. Be glad you do not have a Jet Blue ticket

 

[Highbeam]

OK, I apologize, I will back off and only express my disappointment with the VC for engineering a stove where glowing red is "normal". I am no metallurgist either but I have a gut feeling that glowing red will have a detrimental effect on the stove.

 

[tradergordo]

I would not be surprised if you find it has cracked. You need to remove that rear heat shield and examine the cast parts below. I personally would not run the stove at all in this condition.

Really? 4 weeks old; glowed red 8-10 times for 30-45 minutes each; that will crack a $2000 VC cast iron woodstove?

Lets clarify this for everyone - what you described IS NOT the cast iron glowing at all! What you described is essentially a HEAT SHIELD that is glowing red - that is BAD any way you slice it. Anyone else ever seen a heat shield glowing red? I don't know for sure that the cast iron is cracked, and even if it is, it could have been cracked anywhere from the factory floor, to transportation, or your dealer could have even dropped it, who the heck knows?? All I know is that it certainly does not sound safe to me.

Mike - sorry I offended you, that was not my intent - my intent was simply to correct some statements made. I appreciate hearing about your comparative experiences with different stoves, good to know. Glad you are happy with the new stove too. (I would love to know the nitty gritty details of how they compare, cost difference, how long it takes to archive efficient burn, etc.)

Elk - yes, I also thought the problem with the flue connections (as described by both people with complaints) could have been the issue. I also agree with you that people seemed awfully quick to "pile on" without knowing all the facts, based on a tiny sample. If you go read the reviews in the hearth.com database on ANY model of stove, you will find someone (multiple people) complaining about something from literally every manufacturer.

 

[Highbeam]

Do any of the fine manufacturers of stoves recommend and recognize a stove glowing red as normal? There are installation errors and then there are engineering errors. An installation error is not the fault of the manufacturer though the difficulty in properly installing a stove can be partly the manufacturer's fault. Now a properly installed stove running red, and the manufacturer claiming that the red is normal is a whole different animal. Whether it is a cat stove, an EBT stove, or a non-cat stove, heck- even a pellet stove, I would not be happy if it was glowing red when properly installed and operated.

 

[Shane]

To me that letter from John Davidson reallly sums it up. There is no way a sane man (which I'm sure John is) would take on that amount of liability if in fact there was something wrong with the stove glowing. The original posters problem is that his heatshield is glowing, this is a totally different component (as has been pointed out) and should be immediately addressed by the dealer/installer. And as Elk pointed out there are numerous stoves that utilize EBT. To date I too have only seen one poster that has ditched his Everburn stove for another technology/brand. Nothing wrong with that, it's his choice. I don't know what was going on with Mikes stove I couldn't figure it out. With CMCramers stove the operating temps for stove top & pipe temp are right on the money for normal temps. If your heat shield is glowing I highly recommend disassembling the combustion chamber and finding out what's what because something's amiss. Back to the point though. Mike has ditched his stove. This is one stove out of thousands made and sold over the past three years. I don't think we're looking at faulty technology, otherwise there would be numerous complaints. I have personally sold approximately 10 EBT stoves to date and not a bit of trouble with any of them. As far as a recall VC or any other stove company is going ot jump in there and recall any defective products it produces. (Look at the Robertshaw recall or the Sequoia recall) These are usually voluntary as no manufacturer wants to cause harm to the end user. If one or two complaints about a product are enough to deter someone from buying something that's too bad. Really a pissed off person is going to tell whoever will listen that product X sucks. A happy consumer will usually say nothing and if they do it's usually because they were asked. I usually stray from such arguments but I really see some mob mentality going on here.

 

[TMonter]

Elk, I don't think anyone here is faulting VC for having issues with this model of stove. However, their lack of a reasonable response really makes them look bad in the safety/customer service department. This isn't a case of one person having this issue with this particular stove, it's a situation of the problem of the stove glowing and VC saying it's normal operation.

Every stove manual I've read has said that glowing parts is a sign of overfiring.

Even with a reinforced area of the stove, a glowing heat shield constitutes a significant safety risk and in reality if someone were to set fire to their house from this, VC would be liable.

 

[elkimmeg]

There is a couple of common things happening with the everburn stove complaints. First one is the flue collar connection was not properly connected, allowing a huge area of leakage into the stoves. Second when asked if this flue collar connection passed the stove inspection, I have yet to receive an answer. With out a permit , who installed the stoves? So we are receiving complaints from posters that have illegally installed stovves? This being so and admitted that the flue collar connection fails proper connection, one has to wonder who set these stoves up?

It is quite evident that no one read their manuals or they would have read the first page, the second page, and the 4th page, alerting then the need for code compliancce. So they come to the forum to post their displeasure with illegally installed stoves, where they never read the listing manual.

People are outraged VC has not responded to them, yet there is no disclosure where the selling dealer is involved? Folks the selling dealertakes care of these issues. Just like Harman does with pellet stoves. Harman does participate on this forum and issue warranty recalls. I have yet to see one, PE does not , Lopi does not. So why are these people outraged with VC.

VC has the exact arrangement with its dealers, that every stove manufacture has. If a stove is defective the dealer is involved. He is the person that is susposed to take care of warranty issues.
Yet there is no mention of dealer interaction posted?.

Part of the dealer installation is to make adjustment to the stove in the field. These new stoves are no longer refactory cemented together, but all cast parts gasketed and bolted together. As part of the installation setup ,the bolts tightnees should be checked also the refractory shoe should be checked and adjusted, so that it is set correctly. Vital to the secondary burn process engineered to allow x amount of air into the secondary burn chamber. IF it is not set properly or miss aligned, you could be experiencing the conditions as described Add the Flue collar leakage and you have a blast furnace in the back of the stove. Has your dealer confirmed the bolt tightness and the shoe is set correctly? and flue collar joint set correcctly?

I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint. I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff? Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?

They even want a recall for incorrectly illegally installed stoves. Sounds about Right? Yet not one mentioned anything about dealer support?

 

[TMonter]

Whith out a permit who installed the stoves? So we are receiving complaints from posters that have illegally installed stovves?

Not all places require a permit to install stoves Elk. Here in North Idaho, it's all driven by fire codes, UL requirements and your homeowners insurance. If you're unsure of what you are doing you certainly should have it inspected.

It is quite evident that none read their manuals or they would have read the first page the second page and the 4th page alerting then the need for code compliancce. So they come to the forum to post their displeasure with illegally installed stoves where they never read the listing manual.

Again you're assuming the stoves have been illegally installed when they may not have.

People are outraged VC has not responded to them yet there is no disclosure where the selling dealer is involved? Folks the selling dealertakes care of these issues. just like harman does with pellet stoves. Harman does participate on this forum and issue warranty recalls I have yet to see one PE does not Lopi does not so why are these people outraged with VC.

People are understandably upset as it does seem that this particular VC stove has some issues, but I wouldn't say they are outraged.

 

[Harley]

Even though I posted some comments on the thread... now going back and re-reading all of the posts... there may be a little over-reaction from ALL sides. I can see why this one is heating up the way it is. The way I see it.... there's a few things going on here, and no-one really has the full picture yet as to what the full story is.

OK - lets assume it is a bad installation and air leakage is causing an over-fire condition and causing the glowing red parts on the stove. Or lets make the assumption that the stove is not really being operated in a safe manner, causing the same described conditions. The text of the posted VC response is (yes... taking some liberties here) "don't worry... the back of the stove glowing is OK"


Now - either way... I think something not good is going on. On one hand we recently heard VC might be looking at the postings here, and would possibly respond to them. This thread seems to be one that they would really want to make an official response to, as it really is turning into an issue where their newest non-cat technology is being called into question from a safety standpoint.

We don't have a lot of details as far as actual pictures of the actual installation - but if VC is interested in what is said here, at least you would think they might say - "we've got people looking into this one, and trying to figure out the problem"

I'm not trying to bash either side - at this point we are all making a lot of assumptions it seems

 

[TMonter]

Can the user post some pictures of the install and give a good accounting of all the materials used? That may better help determine the problem. Pictures are worth 1000 words and the idea here is to help resolve the problem, not point fingers.

 

[BrotherBart]

I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint. I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff? Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?

Then why the hesitation to install the donor stove?

 

[elkimmeg]

All states have adopter the International codes Therfore all states are bound to enforce them. Insurance companies have no jurisdiction enforcing the International codes. and have no method of International code approval nor can they issue permits. They can do insurance inspections but that does not make them code compliant the only preson that can is the Licenced International code inspector. Some towns can appoint the fire dept to handle inspections of wood stoves as NFPA211 falls within the fire dept codes. Since NFPA211 is not a reconised national code the building depts have to defere wood stove inspections to the fire dept. if they so desire. In some towns this arrangement works well. The listing its self is non compliant till it has been approved buy Ahj. Not one complaining poster has admitted to obtaininga permit or even admitted to asking for one. Code wise without a permit there should be no stove installed to question its opperation. EVery manufacture has to alert the owner and installer code compliance is mandatory therfore permits and sucessfull inspections are required, before that stove can be fired.

Don't believe than you must be another that has not read your manual. and you want to argue the point? Now I do realize that not all inspectors make the best effort. and that they can't be bothered. Maybe all town or counties do not have the manpower for proper inspection coverage. I understand that but I have yet to hear these complainer state that. I know what is required in the state of Ny where this complainer lives and permits are required the othen complainer was from NY and the third one from MA and Iknow the codes in MA and his town is not a small rural tome I know his inspector he attended my seminar. That accounts for the 3 most recent complainers

Back to the stove with issues these secondary burn chambers are lined with the same insulation the urns holding molten steel as it is transported over to the molds to be poured in.
I'm not saying the stove could not be defective gasket joints not bolted together tigh enough possibly damaged insulation in the secondary burn chamber. The Everburn shoe not alighned or missing a gasket piece. Where is the dealer in this? ccould it be the flue collar connection soo poor toomuch air is being drawn into the secondary burn chamber causing it to over heat?

I will be checking with VC tomorrow to validate the correspondence submitted here. I find it odd t for a VC spokesman to admitt that it is common or ok to see glowing red something is wrong.

Yet no dealer or VC tech has examined the stove. Jack is the northeast distributor and he has no knowledge of this glowing red issue I find it odd that VC CFM would ever allow posting of such a letter or finding on a public forum. Me I would want to confirm these findings. Which I will tomorrow. If it is true, then I not buying its ok there is a design flaw and I will question the fix.
I will not support a company that admits to a design flaw and does nothing about it. I will demand it be addressed. If true ,my building inspections Dept comes under the jusisdiction of the dept of public safety in MA. I will be on the phone to alert them tomorrow. CFM will be addressing them. I will also post to confirm what I'm told here.

 

[webbie]

Keep in mind that the temp at which cast would glow - about 900 F - is a very normal temperature for the inside of a stove. The ember bed in a wood stove is easily 1200-1500+ F, so why would the cast iron that it touched be much cooler?

There are also different alloys of cast iron - some have chromium and other metals added in order to raise the temperature that the metal can withstand in everyday use.

I am not an expert on metals either, but I would guess that iron alloy could easily take constant heating to 1000 degrees (red hot) and not warp or crack. The problem of warping is more likely to occur when it hits hotter temps than that....bright red, etc.

Cast iron exhaust manifold on older cars often glow red hot every time the engine is used! That is a lot of heating and cooling cycles!

 

[TMonter]

Don’t believe than you must be another that has not read your manual. and you want to argue the point? Now I do realize that not all inspectors make the best effort. and that they can’t be bothered. Maybe all town or counties do not have the manpower for proper inspection coverage. I understand that but I have yet to hear these complainer state that. I know what is required in the state of Ny where this complainer lives and permits are required the othen complainer was from NY and the third one from MA and Iknow the codes in MA and his town is not a small rural tome I know his inspector he attended my seminar. That accounts for the 3 most recent complainers

I didn't see anything in the national code that required a inspection, just compliance with the code. From what I can tell inspections are left up to local jurisdictions and my county here doesn't require a permit to install a wood stove as a replacement to an existing one.

 

[BrotherBart]

Keep in mind that the temp at which cast would glow - about 900 F - is a very normal temperature for the inside of a stove. The ember bed in a wood stove is easily 1200-1500+ F, so why would the cast iron that it touched be much cooler?

There are also different alloys of cast iron - some have chromium and other metals added in order to raise the temperature that the metal can withstand in everyday use.

I am not an expert on metals either, but I would guess that iron alloy could easily take constant heating to 1000 degrees (red hot) and not warp or crack. The problem of warping is more likely to occur when it hits hotter temps than that....bright red, etc.

Cast iron exhaust manifold on older cars often glow red hot every time the engine is used! That is a lot of heating and cooling cycles!

That's what I have been thinking following the thread. What temps and how much glowing goes on in that cat chamber when the cats light off? Darn sure more than 900 degrees.

In fact 900 at a flue collar is more the rule than the exception when new loads are firing off on most any technology stove.

 

[cmcramer]

Mr. elkimmeg: I'll gladly fax you a copy of the letter right now if you'd like to see it. Email me your fax number if you'd like a copy. ([email protected])

OK. I'll borrow a camera tomorrow.

I'll seal those dang crimps in the flue connector.

I'll remove the rear heat shield and inspect the cast iron underneath.

I don't know anything about tightening bolts and adjusting the 'refractory shoe'.

I'll stop being a "complainer" as soon possible

 

[elkimmeg]

Lets get to the bottom of this? Was the stove installation permitted and inspected? What has you dealer done to address the issues? Who installed the stove?
We recently took the office fax number out of the Centrix system and I have a new number not on my business inspection card. I will e-mail you after 9:00 Am with the correct Fax number.
i will in turn Fax your reply to VC in VT. then phone them. If there is a design flaw then the public should know glowing red is not normal . If you have a defective stove where is your dealer in all this. Please give me the background info. I want to help you if I can. For me to press the issue with my contacts at Vc I have to know the details including your dealer you purchased it from and his response. To be fair I also will run this by Jack, if he is the distributor for your local. How did you get this letter from CFM? One can not go into this like a bull in a china shop one has to know the details. Did you know a phone call from me got our Moderator's Winter warm replaced Mo heat. I will try to do the same for you or atleast try to get answers. I need more info


This being the third such post concerning the Everburn techology and a very heated post, all viewer including myself ,want to know if there is a problem with the Everburn technology

 

[Gooserider]

Elk, I will say I'm dissapointed that we aren't seeing a more visible response from VC on this, but I also am not sure that having the stove inspection would have prevented a problem - You and I have gone the rounds on this before, and I don't see a need to repeat, but I still maintain that an inspectors signature does not make a "code compliant" install, or the lack of a signature make a "non-compliant" install... It all depends on the quality of the work performed, and I think a significant number of inspectors would not catch your "no crimps" rule as a failure....

I know that I'd been posting here for quite a while and had not seen any discussion of the stove collar length being an issue that would require trimming the crimps until a few days ago when you first raised the issue. IIRC there were some of the other pro's on here that questioned you on this, let alone the rest of us.

Up until seeing that discussion, my initial response to a short collar would probably have been to leave the crimps showing, after making sure the pipe was as far in as I could make it go, and just make sure that the required three screws per joint were there, and probably throw some refractory into the joint.... The need to trim strikes me as one of those rare, esoteric fine details in the code that would be easy to miss, and I would argue that if the stove maker isn't supplying a "starter adapter" with the right length crimp on it, there should be a mention of the need to trim in the manual along with the other instructions on connecting single wall pipe to the stove.

Note that EVERY VC manual that I got on our tour tells you to insert the connector pipe's crimped end into the stove connector, and secure it with three screws. NOT ONE says anything about needing to use refractory cement, or any other sealant. NOT ONE says anthing about not having exposed crimps, or a need to trim. You might say that having exposed crimps and no sealant violates code - I would argue that the MANUFACTURUERS instructions do not call for sealant, or prohibit exposed crimps. Therefore our problem stoves were installed in accordance with the manufacturers STATED INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS!

It is worth noting that the manuals ALL totally dodge the question of installing double wall pipe, or connecting to prefab chimneys, saying only to follow the manufacturers instructions, but they give fairly detailed instructions about how to connect single wall stove pipe - which include the three screws / joint, but don't say anything about exposed crimps or needing sealant....

The way the manual is written, it at least implies that the information in it, and possibly the instructions for any double wall pipe or prefab chimney, is all that's needed for a normal install (which will be code compliant and pass inspections) - I do not think that it is reasonable for VC to expect people to figure out trimming and the need for sealant if the manual doesn't tell them it's needed.

Any VC trained dealers or installers reading this? I'd love to know if VC tells you about trimming and using sealants in the dealertraining?

Gooserider