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Encore Non-Cat Overfires

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by cmcramer, Feb 19, 2007.

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  1. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    I disagree.

    You have a fluid device designed to operate over a relatively small range of fluid velocity. If the fluid velocity is too high, the device will not function properly. The flue damper adjusts to the fluid velocity to that which corresponds to the velocity of optimal performance for the appliance.


    How is that a band-aid? That's simply altering the charecteristics of the environment which the stove is operated in to allow the best possible performance from the appliance.

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  2. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    your missing the point ..................

    The point is: the fist thing a lot of people tell someone is "O' You need a damper" when 99% of the time its another issue all together.

    Ya'll are bringing in 40' chimney stacks and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Now if you want to talk about 40'-50' chimneys than that fine in another thread that may be the case but when the first thing that is thrown out there to an issue is "DAMPER" then that is wrong. Most of the time its another issue all together as proof as we have seen many time on this forum.

    I'm not saying a damper isn't ever needed , but there's a time and a place and when one is told out of the box ya need a damper you are misleading people from the actual issue. Just like this thread.
  3. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    I understand what you're saying, but you're not being clear enough.

    From your posts, it sounds like you believe there is never a time where a stack damper is needed.

    I'll agree that sometimes the draft damper might get jumped to as the easiest fix and maybe sometimes everyone shouldn't do that. However there are certainly conditions where they are needed and 100% necessary. Quality stove, quality installation, just a draft that is too strong. No band aid.

    Case in point: Russo coal stove, 12 feet of single wall pipe, to 6 feet of insulated chimney through the roof. Not a seemingly strong draft producer. Nonetheless, the stove will suck newspaper up the flue. On a cold day, without a stack damper, there was almost no way to slow down a coal fire, regardless of how open or closed the air control was. Mind you, stove was purchased brand new, no leaks, good gaskets. Insert a barometric damper and even on the coldest days, there is no problem with control of the fire.
  4. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    I stand behind this statement 100% ...............

    As we can see in this thread.........it was NOT a damper issue.

    How about this .... The very last thing one should try is a damper to solve an overdraft / overfiring issue with a stove , 99% of the time theres another issue that needs to be corrected.

    I'm making such a strong point to this is because there are so many people on this forum that run around a call out "damper" when there is a problem and in turn then thats a band-aid to the actual issue.
  5. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    As we see here now as to why Vermont Casting says "NO WAY" to adding a damper to a 31' chimney. .....................

    Its another issue all together as we have all found out and this is my point to not suggest a damper to solve all stove issues.

    I'm just not sure how to explain it it any other way guys.
  6. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    We had our totally rebuilt 602 on a modest stack, but it loved to overfire and the stack temps showed a lot of heat heading up the stack. I added a damper and it became a pussycat. Very predictable and a significant drop in stack temps. Perhaps it was unnecessary, but I don't think so. Nor do I think there is any blanket rule for all stoves and all flues in all climates. Nor does every stove run perfectly under all circumstances and climate conditions. And if the user has an inherent situation where the stove works great under most conditions, but overdrafts in others, then another degree of regulation can a good thing. The exception of course is the PE which by all accounts has reached near perfection.
  7. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    I don't see any reason to continue talking about it, because your mind is already made up.
  8. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Your correct Corie , and this thread backs up why i feel this way as so do all the other threads that end this way as well.

    There is nothing wrong with getting to the bottom of the issue before adding a band-aid to cover up the problems , I'm really unsure why this would even be debated.
  9. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    You're right, in that getting to the bottom of the issue is certainly the main concern. That's what were here for.


    If every overdraft situation is related to a faulty stove, its easy to say that everything we suggest as a potential remedy outside of fixing the stove is a band-aid.


    Since every single potential overdraft situation isn't necessarily related to a problem in the stove itself, its hard to globalize what you're saying.
  10. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Corie .......I just dont know how to explain it to you any other way , I've changed my wording , I've explained it in different ways and i even placed quotes in.

    Sorry brother , I'm just shot to word it so you understand. Maybe someone else can jump in here and feed it to you in a way it comes through.

    cheers.

    Again cmcramer , that awesome you have your stove working the way it should , stick around brother , were going to point you the everburn guy . ;-)
  11. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I am glad to see this issue resolved, but I'm not sure I would go as far as Roo does and say that the added damper is ALWAYS a band-aid, however I'd agree that perhaps we are over anxious to reccomend it as a solution. When we have a couple cases of people seeming to solve problems with a damper, it gets real tempting to reccomend it to everyone, which we should probably avoid.

    I haven't reviewed the entire thread, but I don't think the damper was the first thing suggested, but only came up AFTER we had suggested the check for air leaks, and other stove problems - The damper was suggested after we were told (wrongly as it turned out) that the stove was sealing properly.

    CMC didn't mention it earlier, which is understandable given the timing, but you will note that the damper did NOT solve the problem entirely, though it helped. I still wonder what the draft reading on the stove would have been, and whether or not that would have indicated a damper - IIRC, we never got that number.

    So what do we have as "take-away" from this?

    1. We should modify our "dollar test" instructions to explicitly include the hinge area, not just a generic "every few inches around the door"

    2. We need to put more emphasis on sealing the pipe system, especially at the stove / stack junction.

    3. We should be slightly less anxious to reccomend adding a damper unless there are definite indications. We should include the cautionary note that the damper may appear to work, but really be hiding other problems.

    4. If a damper doesn't work, we need to go back to the stove.

    5. We should be more interested in getting a draft reading on problem stoves - this raises the question of whether or not there is a low budget "home-brew" method of making a draft meter - would a manometer give the same sort of info? - that would be really simple if it would work...

    Other lessons?

    Gooserider
  12. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Goose good summary: Had a draft reading been taken, it would have indicated an over draft situation
    MSG has had a post in the ppast that draft reaings should be the first step in finding out why a stove is not opperating correctly

    Many new members here do not know the Lime 4x4 members problems I sent him My draft meter but it never made it to him got lost in the mail my fault for not insuring it
    and having a tracking number. On Ebay there are cheap draft meters.

    Professional installations should include checking the stove for proper seals simple things like latch adjustments.

    Knowing Dale and Peter at VC, do you think they are having their people check each and every one from now on?

    Somewhere in the past VC must have treated downeast poorly and the wounds are still deep. Can't argue against paying $2000 and not getting better QC
    but that is plagues most manuftacures be in the stove industry or any home applaince some do slip therw that should not. the point here is to identify them fix them and make sure other
    never suffer from the same issues. And know I would not be happy witha Sears Refrig that only cools to 55 degrees./ I guess downeast has had issues with Sears as well.
  13. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    MSG posted this link for an inexpensive draft guage.
    http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/airvelocity/Series460Intro.CFM

    I've been reviewing some stove manuals this morning. Many warn of the risk of overdraft. I'd say if the stove pipe is going up more than 2 stories, it is likely to draft strongly and should be tested. The stove may not glow red, but may consume more wood than necessary. It would be REALLY helpful for manufacturers to include nominal draft ranges for their stove to take some of the guesswork out of this. Perhaps they do provide the dealers with this information?

    Here's a typical mfg. caveat:
    2. Too much draft may cause excessive temperatures in the
    appliance. An uncontrollable burn or a glowing red stove
    part or chimney indicates excessive draft.
    [PE Spectrum]
  14. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Not sure I follow why we are sure there was an overdraft situation? If the stove was not sealing properly, could that not have been the entire problem? I notice that fixing the ash door seal seemed to solve the problem, but putting the damper on didn't - to me that suggests that the seal was more of a problem than the draft.... If CMC did have a draft issue as well as the seal, do you think he'd benefit from continuing to use the damper even though the stove now appears to be working OK without it?

    What I was thinking of is if there is an even cheaper method of measuring draft that might not be as accurate as an real genuine meter, but would give a rough indication as to whether or not there was a problem. This is why I was wondering if a manometer would work a couple of posts back - a poor man's manometer would be really easy to do, and MIGHT give an idea about if there is a problem or not. Essentially a poor man's manometer is as simple as getting a few inches of clear tubing, attaching one end to the chimney under test, and sticking the other end in a glass of water - measure the height of the water colum... The question is whether this would work well enough. - I don't know.

    I also agree that a good install should check gasket sealing, but I can see how this problem is something that could get missed - note that the LATCH was working properly, it was the hinges that were off - an easy thing to miss - sort of like troubleshooting automotive electrics - everyone checks the wires, but many forget to check the chassis ground....

    I'd also agree that Dale and Peter will probably be looking harder at this now, although their existing smoke test should have caught the problem - I'd almost wonder if it wasn't some form of shipping or installation induced problem, probably the latter. I could easily see how someone grabbing the door while moving the stove might put an unusual stress on it that could tweak the hinges out of position w/out noticing it.

    Gooserider
  15. Andre B.

    Andre B. New Member

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    Should work just fine after all draft is almost always giving in inches of water in old engineering books.
    Give you one guess where the inches were measured. :)

    Today they just use a mechanical meter because it is more portable and less messy to toss in the tool box.

    I think the biggest question is the shape and orientation of the opening in the probe, you want to avoid any ram pressure or ventury effects.


    Simple one for setting propane system pressure.
    http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/manometer.html
  16. cmcramer

    cmcramer Member

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    Hmmm. We did not grab and drag the stove by the ashpan, but you got me thinkin'...

    The stove is shipped on a two-tiered wooden pallet. The bottom tier is a little wider than the stove legs. But the top tier of the pallet was much narrower than the stove legs...and rested directly upon the ashpan. This top tier seemed to support its share of the stove's entire weight by resting right on the the dang ashpan. And if that pallet was not quite built to spec. ....and if more weight than called for rested on that top tier-- ashpan interface................

    Plus, it was carted into my house on a two-wheeled cart.

    Seems to me that damaging the ashpan hinge alignment during shipping and handling is certainly a real possibility.
  17. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Own Honda & Toyota automobiles, work in software - both products go out the door with an "acceptable" level of bugs. No product is perfect. And it's really hard for any company to 100% cover what happens in transit.
  18. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    (Emphasis added)

    Gee sounds like you must have never heard of MICRO$OFT.... Oh, I forgot, they don't have bugs, only "features"

    Gooserider
  19. cmcramer

    cmcramer Member

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    Well, downeast, you certainly struck a chord with me on this one. A minor chord. F minor.
  20. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Downeast is trying to bait me into discussion

    Are you asking if Canada is part of America? Last time I checked it was.
    Are you looking to for me to do a brief history lesson how the war of 1812 established the 49 parrellel
    Yes we had the French and indian wars, that resulted in more of the border being defined.

    Yess the Ontario teacher pention plan owns and controls CFM. They had little choice they happened to be the largest share holders when CFM corp just about Bankrupted the company
    by delaulting its loan obligations The teachers association had two options sit back and have bankrupcy courts dish nickles on thier dollars oor take a bold move ant takeover the company.
    a take over would mean a huge comniment to more money pumped in to get rolling again, Another part was to sell off u non productive branches of CFm like its water and wter purification unit
    the focus on it main teir of products making hearth products. Under an entirly new management and finally the funds needed to do R&D CFM/VC started manufacturing the everburn
    technology. At no point did the Vermont foundrys ever shut down during all this corporate termoil. Went feul prices were less than $1 per gallon the hearth industry went in decline.
    The early 90's things were so bad the original founder need a company to buy them out they sold to Majestic the original combination on paper looked good VC with wood burning technology and Majestic with gas This union last only a few years till the Mid 90's when CFM bought out Majestic. CFM oinly looked at the bottom line and milked the good VC name they brnched out into other industries that did not turn out to be productive and startrd loosing money to the point of loan defaults. During that time QC took a hit they treated their dealers like crap expecting them to solve all QC issues. The threat that they would market to the big box stores was real ie gas grills. By selling to the bvig box stores local dealers could not compete. so many local dealers got fedup and dropped their line. Somewhere around 1998 /1999 the quality control issuse got to the point things had to be changes Finally replacement refractior packages were used to replace the cracking cast iron plates. A little more money was being directed to R&D again QC began to improve but the company on a whole was loosing money and it came to a head in 2003
    when the teachers bought out what was left of CFM. From that time forward I have noticed a dedication and renewed commitment to quality and better dealer relations. CFM has limited its product line with the big box stores as well. Part of the renewed R&D is connected to the everburn technolody A bold move to bring to market a stove that emitted less than 1 GPH the cleanes stoves ever tested by the EPA. The company is banking on the acceptance of this new technology In no way are they out of the financial woods they still carry a huge dedt

    So How am I doing Downeast is this a fair assesment of where VC is and the uphill battle to exist anymore you want to add feel free? I do not feel I sugar coated one part of the history.
    I admitted to problems with QC I admittes to dealer relations and lack of dealer support anything else I missed fill us in. Do you think it fair with completely m new owners and managrs that the company is still run the same way If so please educate us. If you have issues VC should address I did supply you with phone nyumbers where you can talk to the head of engineering and let them know of your concerns. I supplied you those phone numeres months back. If you need them again either back search this site or PM me and I wll provide them again.

    I assume that you were so concerned that you would have taken the initiative and called. Well !,what did you find out? I also assumed you issues would be better you explaining them directly to them, then finding them out in pieces on an open forum. In you mind can you acept that one makes a mistake admits then tries to improve to move on or are they froverr bound by a prior mishaps. I would like to think one can learn form mistakes and use the knowlegde not to repet them But that's my way of thinking Evidently not shared by you
    So stop feline fotoing around and spill out you discontent ,be you disdain towards me, or the manufacturer ,so it can be addressed .Call VC. I do know the last time you needed info ,I went out of my way to provide you the linkls ,to what you asked. BTW have you used the everburn technology?
  21. SSPENCE

    SSPENCE Member

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    Getting back to the overdrafting problem. Have any of you read the story in SNEWs about dealing with uncontrollable non-cats. It says that their tested in a warm lab with only 15 ft of venting, measuring from floor that applaince sits on to cap. when you put them into a taller install 25ft to 30ft and in colder climates the draft is so great that the stove will be uncontrollable. and on most non-cats they have a inlet that doesn't shut down all the way so they can pass EPA. It was a very intresting story that dealers should read.
  22. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Hi Spence, is there an online link you can provide to the article?
  23. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  24. Andre B.

    Andre B. New Member

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  25. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    YOU might be online "because of Microsoft R&D" - I'm not... My machines run Linux 100%, Microsoft gets some of their networking code from the same BSD licensed files that Linux uses, but Linux does NOT use Microsoft code, other than to the extent that has been needed to reverse engineer some of Microsoft's deliberately incompatible formats...

    When we first got our cable connection, I built up a Win2K box JUST so that I could get the cable people to do the install - Officially Comcast doesn't support Linux - Hooking the W2K box to the directly cable, with a completely new install, we could not get the browser to display properly - After 3 hours on the phone with tech support, it still wasn't working, but I had gotten plenty of malware uploaded onto the machine. When I told the tech that the only other machines I had available were on the Linux network, the support person suggested that I try those machines anyway - I plugged in my cable router, and everything JUST WORKED....

    The net wasn't invented by Microsoft, and very little of the net runs on Microsoft software. Per all studies, the net backbone runs on a mix of *nix boxes, and Linux machines have had a constantly increasing part of that load.

    You might not even be on Hearth.com "because of Microsoft R&D"! I don't know just what platform the site is running on, but I strongly suspect it's a Linux box, given that the site is credited as "Powered By ExpressionEngine" and EE's website states that it uses PHP, MySQL and a couple of other Open Source programs, all originally developed on Linux, though I think some have been ported to Microsoft...

    Gooserider
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