First full load in the 30

[bluedogz]

My wood is above the firebrick, but a couple of inches below the tubes.

Makes me feel better... my overnight loads so far have been stuffed to the gills, with toothpicks in all the cracks.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I recently realized that I was cutting the air back too quickly on the 30. I would still hit 650 but cutting the air back too early really cut down on the amount of heat the stove was throwing and would drop the temps more quickly. Which probably explained some of the smoke I was getting earlier.

I'm still hitting 650-750, but the temps stay there longer, and the entire stove has higher temps. I realized this when I posted the "92 degrees" thread. Oddly enough this has not changed my burn times. The overall increase in stove temps (primarily the sides) really changes how the area warms up.

Previously, the room it was in would hit a degree or two above 80 degrees. Now, with the overall stove temps higher and maintaining higher temps longer, the room easily hits 90.

Obviously 90 isn't needed, nor wanted. But, when the outside temps drop, having the area hit 90 for the over night burn allows the stove to maintain warmer room temps for far longer.

As an example, this morning I woke up to outside temps of about 20 degrees, which is about normal for winter temps around here (usually mid-teens to low 20s for winter lows are the norm). The room the 30 is in was still 80 degrees 8.5 hours into the burn with a ton of coals. I racked the coals forward into a big mound and I did a partial load (about 50% full)of the stove this morning at 7:30 am. I cut the air back more slowly and got the stove up to temp properly. The room got well above 80 (about 88) and 9.5 hours later the room is still sitting at 78 degrees with a bunch of coals and a stove top of 230-250.

Highs today have not gotten above 33. So, again, the high and low temps today are a pretty good indicator of a typical winter day in my area even in January.

This is obviously a massive difference from the Vigilant and also a huge difference from the Heritage. The 30 also holds coals better than the Defiant and Encore (but, the Defiant and Encore hold higher temps for a much longer period of time).

 

[rdust]

The room temps you talk about blow my mind! I couldn't imagine having a 90* room, even an 80* room seems to be in crazy land! My wife would take the keys to the stove away from me if I did that.

 

[BrowningBAR]

The room temps you talk about blow my mind! I couldn't imagine having a 90* room, even an 80* room seems to be in crazy land! My wife would take the keys to the stove away from me if I did that.

That's the trouble with heat loss, poor insulation, and drafts. You need to completely over do it in order to have the whole house heated properly.

If I kept the room with the 30 in it at 75 degrees, that means someplace else the house is too cool and the room that is 75 degrees ends up feeling less warm as you can feel a rush of cold air coming in from the rest of the house. Right now I am running the Defiant and 30 in winter like conditions with the Encore sitting on the Bench. I could also set it up to run only the Defiant and the Encore, but this seems to be the most efficient method when the wife is at work.

Now that the stove situation is under control I can now put resources towards insulating the house. But, that will be a very expensive road to travel and will take several years for the improvements to take place.

This summer the attic will be worked on. Then I need to bring in someone to help me determine the best method to tighten up the rooms with the Defiant and the 30 in them. Then comes the expensive task of replacing all the doors and windows. I'm looking at about 40 grand in total. And with plenty of heat in place, I do not feel the need to break the budget making this happen sooner.

It will cost me a little more in wood consumption over the next five years, but it is still the more affordable plan.

Also, we like it warm really warm.

 

[leeave96]

I recently realized that I was cutting the air back too quickly on the 30. I would still hit 650 but cutting the air back too early really cut down on the amount of heat the stove was throwing and would drop the temps more quickly. Which probably explained some of the smoke I was getting earlier.

I'm still hitting 650-750, but the temps stay there longer, and the entire stove has higher temps. I realized this when I posted the "92 degrees" thread. Oddly enough this has not changed my burn times. The overall increase in stove temps (primarily the sides) really changes how the area warms up.

Previously, the room it was in would hit a degree or two above 80 degrees. Now, with the overall stove temps higher and maintaining higher temps longer, the room easily hits 90.

Obviously 90 isn't needed, nor wanted. But, when the outside temps drop, having the area hit 90 for the over night burn allows the stove to maintain warmer room temps for far longer.

As an example, this morning I woke up to outside temps of about 20 degrees, which is about normal for winter temps around here (usually mid-teens to low 20s for winter lows are the norm). The room the 30 is in was still 80 degrees 8.5 hours into the burn with a ton of coals. I racked the coals forward into a big mound and I did a partial load (about 50% full)of the stove this morning at 7:30 am. I cut the air back more slowly and got the stove up to temp properly. The room got well above 80 (about 88) and 9.5 hours later the room is still sitting at 78 degrees with a bunch of coals and a stove top of 230-250.

Highs today have not gotten above 33. So, again, the high and low temps today are a pretty good indicator of a typical winter day in my area even in January.

This is obviously a massive difference from the Vigilant and also a huge difference from the Heritage. The 30 also holds coals better than the Defiant and Encore (but, the Defiant and Encore hold higher temps for a much longer period of time).

If you are hitting 650 or above with this stove, 90 degree room temps are indeed possible. I was traveling last week and phoned home and one of my boys let it slip the basement where my 30-NCH is housed got the temperature to 92 degrees! I have also found this stove to be a VERY clean burner. The hot temps, active secondaries and hot exhaust gasses going up the chimney seem to keep the creosote at a minimum. Have you tried tightening-up the baffles in the top of the stove? Mine had a gap in them and I put a steel rod on the left hand side - inside a piece of rope gasket and now ALL of the stove gasses have to pass over the boards before going up the chimney - no easy path between the boards for some heat to escape. I think others have done this too. We are also burning E/W this year and are having better burn times with a bit lower heat output vs N/S - which is OK with me in our set-up as the stove can blast out some crazy heat and wood consumption is not as great. E/W also makes it harder for the rest of my family to pack the stove full - every square inch as they could N/S and this saves wood too.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

If you are hitting 650 or above with this stove, 90 degree room temps are indeed possible. I was traveling last week and phoned home and one of my boys let it slip the basement where my 30-NCH is housed got the temperature to 92 degrees! I have also found this stove to be a VERY clean burner. The hot temps, active secondaries and hot exhaust gasses going up the chimney seem to keep the creosote at a minimum. Have you tried tightening-up the baffles in the top of the stove? Mine had a gap in them and I put a steel rod on the left hand side - inside a piece of rope gasket and now ALL of the stove gasses have to pass over the boards before going up the chimney - no easy path between the boards for some heat to escape. I think others have done this too.

Not yet, but I am aware of it. I check the baffle during each reload to check for a gap. If there is, I slide the baffle over from left to right to close the gap. This summer I will rig it like others have.

We are also burning E/W this year and are having better burn times with a bit lower heat output vs N/S - which is OK with me in our set-up as the stove can blast out some crazy heat and wood consumption is not as great. E/W also makes it harder for the rest of my family to pack the stove full - every square inch as they could N/S and this saves wood too.

I've been doing both as I have been playing with the stove. The N/S load allowed me to figure out that I was cutting the air back too soon on the E/W loads. This has increased the heat output while maintaining my longer burns on E/W loads.

With this new set up I have wasted a good amount of wood figuring out what the right setup is. I've wasted a lot of wood on the 30 reloading too soon, or loading poorly.

Then, I've wasted wood burning all three stoves when only one or two were needed. Took me a while to figure out that the Defiant can heat the whole house on mild days.

As an example; today, which has been one of the colder days so far, I loaded the 30 at 7:30 am and then at 4:30pm and that's it. The last month and a half I was throwing more wood in it just to see what it would do. Packed it full several times when it wasn't needed to see how it burned.

Lots of waste going on around here. Kind of unavoidable as I am technically learning how to burn to large stoves at the same time.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah a couple of small splits in front and getting the stove hot and the load charred is what I kept not doing and messing up when I would try to burn E/W a couple of times a year. After I swore I was finally gonna make it work I let'er rip and the light bulb went off in my head. I had been concerned too much because you leave that air open to long with a packed N/S load and that puppy is headed to the moon. And you end up with dirty underwear, up late, and a load that loses a third of it's burn time. Not so E/W.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I am getting consistent 10 hours of heat from the 30. Loaded the stove at 11:30 pm and just put in a new load at 9:30 am. Big chunks of coals still had the stove top at 250+ degrees. The room the 30 was in was at 74 degrees with outside temps at 30 right now.

Right now, I am running the Defiant and the 30. Both are providing 10 hours of heat for an overnight burn. The Defiant would provide a longer burn, but the splits I am using right now are not taking advantage of the Defiant's firebox so I am leaving a lot of space. With the right splits, you could add another 2+ hours to the Defiant's heat cycle.

But, getting 10 hours of heat from the 30 is pretty damn good.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Okay, so the 30 is working great even as temps begin to get colder. It was 19 as a low last night, and 9 hours later the room the 30 was in was sitting at 71-73 degrees with the stove top still at 300+ degrees. Lots of coals, and an easy restart at about the 9.5 hour mark.

But, I have a question in regards to the 30's burn process. The back of the stove burns very differently than the front when burning e/w. It is not uncommon to have large chunks of coals in the back of the stove. Sometimes the chunks are still in the form of a complete split (a very charred, coal-like split). In the morning I will open up the air and the chunk will either catch or I will bring it up front and it will get the stove top temps up a bit more.

Is this a result of shutting the air too far down at night? Or just the nature of an overnight burn with this stove. I notice that during the day, as I run the stove, as the heat cycle progresses I will give it more air for the last two hours or so and I do not end up with the overly large coals in the back of the stove. But, at night, this doesn't happen as I am not around.

And just to get the obvious out of the way; my wood is good, currently burning 2-3 year old ash and oak. No sizzling. Wood catches and burns hot. I can get the stove as hot as I want to and can get it running in the 650-750 range burning e/w. My firebricks usually stays very clean during an overnight burn. For an overnight burn, I bring all the coals up front, which creates a decent size trench in the back of the stove, which I think contributes to the reason why the bottom back splits do not burn the same way.

I'm not really concerned about the large coals in the back of the stove, just wondering what is the cause, if it is normal, or if there is anything I could do to change the way the back splits burn.

 

[Jags]

Nature of the beast. The dog house air will be more concentrated the closer you get to the glass. It has a chance to diffuse a bit by the time it gets to the back of that cavern. I get pretty much the same with the IR. I actually like it because those large chunks of coal are still holding a lot of heat. Reloads start faster with large chunks of hot coals.

 

[BrotherBart]

Happens with me and E/W burns in the 30 also. In fact it pretty much happens with N/S also. Large chunks in the back. That is a long way for air to travel.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Interesting. It never happened to me on any of the other stoves I have owned. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Happy as a clam with the stove.

 

[BrotherBart]

When I leave ash in the back and cut the front to back channel it pretty much burns up the whole load.

 

[pen]

If that doesn't happen with a full load, there is a good chance that the air was left open too far and there was an over fire at some point. As others said, it's the nature of the beast.

If I'm in the mood and it's cold, if I get out of bed for a walk to the head at 2 or 3am, I'll walk down to the stove and open the air fully and maybe even rake the coals forward a bit and/or add a single split to them. That way, by 5-5:30 am, those coals are far more burnt down and I have more room for my reload.

I've threatened to put an electronic actuator on the air control that would open it up for me at that time, but haven't made it that far yet.

pen

 

[Huntindog1]

BB just say it you made the " tunnel of love" to get the air back to the back of the stove.

I would say with the NC-30 being a large stove its the nature of the beast.

The 30 has alot of head room and a deep bottom for lots of ashes to collect. Some people complain that the bottom of their stove is shallow thus can only hold a load or 3 of ashes.
Plus the extra head room makes for the secondary air is far removed from the bottom of the stove, so towards the end of the burn all the way to the back and all the way to that split on the bottom its hard to get the air all the way there.

The new Vogelzang Ponderosa large stove they have put in a additional air control the call high burn control. I was told it was due to the larger deeper box that it provides additional air control.

The ability of these secondary air tube stoves to leave a nice bed of coals ,I think is due to the fact the primary air is shut down pretty low and most the air is coming in thru the top of the stove thru those secondary air tubes which are far from the bottom of the stove. So at the coal stage the coals are not getting air very well from tubes in the top of the stove. Thus the coals burn down very slowly.

Here is some info from an EPA Wood Stove Design Report that points to why there are alot of stoves with low head room:

SUMMARY The combustion of wood in naturally drafted non-catalytic Residential Wood Combustion (RWC) stoves involves highly complex chemical processes which are sensitive to a wide variety of influences. Key elements required for efficient combustion in- clude high combustion zone temperatures, adequate air (oxygen)/ good air and fuel mixing, adequate residence time, and appro- priate air/fuel ratios. The batch process of wood combustion in the naturally drafted cordwood stove presents special problems in that the entire fuel charge is involved in various and changing stages of a complex combustion process throughout the fuel load burning cycle. Ideal conditions vary during each stage, making complete and efficient combustion of the entire fuel charge in a single stove configuration very difficult. A variety of existing stove technologies are examined for their effectiveness in emissions reduction. Theoretical consi- derations are followed by review of supporting data and observa-
tions. The existing data base is sparse, and positive conclu-
sions cannot be made.
However, the following trends are observed: 1. Emissions are lower from stoves with smaller fireboxes than similar stove designs with larger fireboxes. 2. Low firebox heights appear to contribute to lower emissions. 3. Air inlets above the fuel load in the firebox promote good air fuel mixing and reduce potential emissions.
4. Air entering the firebox near or up through the coal bed ("underfire air") results in higher emissions. 5. Exhaust exits located low in the firebox appear to cause high emissions. 6. Preheated secondary air/ or more properly termed, addi- tional combustion air, introduced at high temperature locations appears to reduce emissions. 7. Thermostatic air supply controls on non-catalytic wood- stoves often cause air-starved conditions at high fuel load and firebox temperatures as the thermostat cycles closed. These conditions can significantly increase emissions. 8. Pellet-fueled stoves utilizing mechanically assisted drafts have demonstrated emission rates below the most efficient catalytic stoves. Densified fuel in natural draft cordwood stoves also exhibit significant emission reductions.

 

[dorkweed]

The same thing happens in my 13NC when "raking forward" for the night time load and setting a good sized round or split on the ash/bricks and not on coals. I usually try to time that at about 9:30PM and then I have 1/2 hour to dial her down before bedtime.

Then in the morning, I find a chunk of charred wood in the back of the stove................sometimes with enough hot stuff to get a morning fire lit from. Not always, but sometimes. Sometimes I wish I had gotten the 30NC! I love this little 13 though.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sounds similar to mine. My problem is that one stove at 250 ain't gonna heat the home. On cold days I need to maintain the stove at 500+.

To go back to this post, I felt the same way until I got the right size stoves for my needs. Now, the 30 and Defiant can sit at lower temps and still provide usable heat.

I think Jags needs to break down and buy himself a BK King. He needs more firepower.

 

[Jags]

I think Jags needs to break down and buy himself a BK King.

If they just didn't make it look like a fat cartoon opera singer...

And 6" pipe.

 

[dorkweed]

If they just didn't make it look like a fat cartoon opera singer...

And 6" pipe.

She's got a good voice from those that've posted here. A little "low" in the range, but high quality for a long time. Me, right now; I'd rather just hear about it now rather than experience it My little 13NC goes from low alto to mezzo-soprano...................just like that if I'm not looking!!

 

[BrowningBAR]

If they just didn't make it look like a fat cartoon opera singer...

And 6" pipe.

How tall is the chimney? I say get over the looks and ride the chubby one with the 6" pipe.

Cuz, what other option do you have unless you go with multiple stoves.

 

[Huntindog1]

The same thing happens in my 13NC when "raking forward" for the night time load and setting a good sized round or split on the ash/bricks and not on coals. I usually try to time that at about 9:30PM and then I have 1/2 hour to dial her down before bedtime.

Then in the morning, I find a chunk of charred wood in the back of the stove................sometimes with enough hot stuff to get a morning fire lit from. Not always, but sometimes. Sometimes I wish I had gotten the 30NC! I love this little 13 though.

You might try to keep the air open a little more. As if your not getting as complete a burn your loosing Btu's of heat that could have been in the house heating it.

Dorkweed, How long burn times do you get with that NC-13?

 

[dorkweed]

You might try to keep the air open a little more. As if your not getting as complete a burn your loosing Btu's of heat that could have been in the house heating it.

Dorkweed, How long burn times do you get with that NC-13?

Usually about 5 hours is average for the box elder and ash I'm burning now. That 5 hour average has the stove less than 300 degrees. It's been fairly mild winter, so I haven't been going 24/7 all the time. Had one night this past week that got down into the teens, so I loaded her up with 3 year old oak at 9:30PM and had a lot of coals in the morning at 7:00AM to get another load going without a super cedar.

 

[begreen]

Happens with me and E/W burns in the 30 also. In fact it pretty much happens with N/S also. Large chunks in the back. That is a long way for air to travel.

I see the same thing when loading E/W, not so much with N/S in the T6. It's a bonus for me because those large glowing coals mean a very quick and easy restart in the morning.

 

[Huntindog1]

Usually about 5 hours is average for the box elder and ash I'm burning now. That 5 hour average has the stove less than 300 degrees. It's been fairly mild winter, so I haven't been going 24/7 all the time. Had one night this past week that got down into the teens, so I loaded her up with 3 year old oak at 9:30PM and had a lot of coals in the morning at 7:00AM to get another load going without a super cedar.

Dork,

Thats really good information as people are always wanting to know how to get longer burn times, one thing that is mentioned but not really stressed is the quality of the wood. I too have noticed with really dry seasoned wood like the 3 year old oak you used , I got really long burn times like 10 hours. I think most times people think they have good wood but actually have good enough wood but not the most ideal wood , there is a difference.

Going back to the NC-30 , I suspect the NC-13 is just a smaller version of the 30. But you just showed you can get a 9.5 hour bunr with the smaller NC-13. Most people would think that the 30 with its 3.5 cuft box would get much longer burn times than the smaller NC-13. But really it can be said its easier to get a 8-10 hour burn with the 30 than its is with the 13. But how you load the stove would be key as in both stoves your loading up the wood and the burn starts at the same time your just burning more wood and getting more heat with the bigger NC-30 stove. Raking the coals forward in the 30 should give a much longer burn time as a large amount of wood will not be burning till later in the burn cycle.