Found a tank, is storage worth the work?

[Dune]

I can get a 3' diameter propane tank, 10 feet long, delivered to my house for pretty much free.

Would it be worth the time and expense for me to integrate this into my heat system?

What are the benefits of storage?

 

[goosegunner]

This is my first season wi storage so I will not know for a while but so far it has,

Added flexability, last year with less than 100 gallons in the system I had to keep a close I out for end of burn. With 1000 gallons even when it gets to 145 I still have some time to reheat.

There is no need to get up early to make sure the fire stays going.

The last 2 nights have been around 25 degrees. The tank was 177 when I went to bed, it was 168 this morning. It was 42 today so heat did not run much. The tank is 164 now. I will fire in the morning.

It is also really different to only have a fire burning for 4-5 hour a day.

I know this will change as it gets colder but the rush to load wood will still be gone.

Lastly, my boiler last spring had a thick layer of creosote on the door. Even when putting in only a few pieces at a time. Now my door is clean, everything has burned off it with no more idling.

gg

 

[Gasifier]

I can get a 3’ diameter propane tank, 10 feet long, delivered to my house for pretty much free.
Would it be worth the time and expense for me to integrate this into my heat system?
What are the benefits of storage?

Dune. Yes it is worth it to install storage. Can be a pain getting it incorporated into system, :smirk: but worth it when done. Can you get two of them for that price? This is my first year with this system. I only have a 400 gallon tank, the one you are looking at sounds like it would be closer to 500 gallons if that length dimension is all tank. I am very glad I went with a buffer/storage tank. And without even being through the first season yet, I am thinking that down the road, in a couple of years, it would be probably be nice to have another tank the same size. But I will wait and see how this season goes. It gives you a big advantage. Especially in the mild but still cool weather. And especially if you want to heat your hot water for showers, dishes, etc. I had a quarter of a tank of oil October first when my system came on line. I still have a quarter of a tank now. Most of that time it has been firing for a few hours in the evening and a few hours early in the morning. Shutting boiler off when I go to bed and off when I go to work. Very nice. It is well worth it. If you can get two of those tanks now, I would suggest that you do that. Even if you sit on them for the season and install them next summer when system is down. How big is your boiler again. I think they say about 500 gallons of storage for every 100,000 BTU. I have an E100 rated at 100,000BTU, but probably puts out more like 120 or 130,000. It heats this 400 gallon tank like nothing. But heat demand has been low. So I think another 400 gallons would work well. But we will have to see what happens when it is 10 below zero outside. It may turn out that I don't need another 400 gallons. If you can't heat it when to much heat demand on boiler, is it worth having. Thing is, how many days a year is it -10. So many variables involved.

 

[Dune]

My homebuilt boiler is tiny.

It is a homemade one of these http://www.hilkoil.com/product.htm

inside a tempwood II gasifier woodstove.

The stove is only rated at 55,000 BTU, and heats more than half the house radiantly.

Only the furthest rooms are heated hydronicly.

If I go to the effort of installing the tank, I will definitely change those rooms to radiant floor heat to be able to take fullest advantage of the storage.

This is the only tank I can get right now.

Edit; so I guess to have the most effective storage I would have to change the whole house to radiant floor heat.

 

[goosegunner]

My homebuilt boiler is tiny.

It is a homemade one of these http://www.hilkoil.com/product.htm

inside a tempwood II gasifier woodstove.

The stove is only rated at 55,000 BTU, and heats more than half the house radiantly.

Only the furthest rooms are heated hydronicly.

If I go to the effort of installing the tank, I will definitely change those rooms to radiant floor heat to be able to take fullest advantage of the storage.

This is the only tank I can get right now.

Edit; so I guess to have the most effective storage I would have to change the whole house to radiant floor heat.

Ok, That is a totally different set up than I was thinking. You will need to have someone respond that can estimate actually output of the coil and what it would or could do to firebox temp if you are trying to heat large amounts of cool water from a big tank.

gg

 

[Gasifier]

Ok, That is a totally different set up than I was thinking. You will need to have someone respond that can estimate actually output of the coil and what it would or could do to firebox temp if you are trying to heat large amounts of cool water from a big tank.

Yup. I did not know your boiler was that small. I think that tank would be to big for your situation. GG is right, you have some calculations to figure out. And you need to have some of the other guys on here help you figure out what is best for you.

Put up all your information. Sq. Ft., insulation. You will need to do a heat calculation, explain current system, etc. Can you wait on the tank for now? Or is it a yes or no situation in a rush?

 

[goosegunner]

Hey if its free, get it. The worst that could happen is sell it to some other member. Many people have a hard time even finding a tank.

gg

 

[Dune]

My homebuilt boiler is tiny.

It is a homemade one of these http://www.hilkoil.com/product.htm

inside a tempwood II gasifier woodstove.

The stove is only rated at 55,000 BTU, and heats more than half the house radiantly.

Only the furthest rooms are heated hydronicly.

If I go to the effort of installing the tank, I will definitely change those rooms to radiant floor heat to be able to take fullest advantage of the storage.

This is the only tank I can get right now.

Edit; so I guess to have the most effective storage I would have to change the whole house to radiant floor heat.

Ok, That is a totally different set up than I was thinking. You will need to have someone respond that can estimate actually output of the coil and what it would or could do to firebox temp if you are trying to heat large amounts of cool water from a big tank.

gg

Yeah, it is a real hybrid system, I don't even know if storage would be a benefit or not.

I am trying to bring another boiler online though, for Co-Gen, and then the storage could be be important.

 

[Dune]

Hey if its free, get it. The worst that could happen is sell it to some other member. Many people have a hard time even finding a tank.

gg

It is going to cost about a hundred bucks but that seems very cheap for what it is.
The scrap value is about 3 times that I think.
The main thing is that affordable ones don't come up very often around here.

 

[bioman]

Why heat water if you canot store it? storage is all that maters. I wish i had a million gallions stored at 200* I'd stay warm for a long time. had to build a fire today, but my water is stored at 200* so i'm good for 3-4 days. stay warm.

 

[Floydian]

Hi Dune,

Here are my thoughts: if your stove has an output of 55,000 btuh(maybe less if the coil is in the firebox and robbing heat from combustion vs transferring heat after combustion) I doubt your getting more than 15 to 20k btuh from that coil. Tops.

IMO a 500 or so gallon tank would be way over sized for your application. Better to have a 200 gallon tank you could get to 160+ deg than a 500 gallon tank you may struggle to get to a usable temp even with low temp emitters.

Of course if your not making excess heat than storage just wont do much for you.

Have you done any kind of heat loss calculations?

I would crunch some numbers before doing anything.

Good luck, and can you link or post some photos of you boiler? We loves us some pics.

Noah

 

[rkusek]

For a $100 I would grab it as long as you have a place to put it. Things change especially when it sounds like you have the skills to build things on your own. Worst case you sell it later and could even make a little. I waffled on a 1000 gal for $200 because it was in dead of winter and would have been a PITA to get it home. I stopped by in the spring to find they sold it for scrap. Near perfect paint and plenty of big ports on top and bottom. Same guy found me two 500gal six months later but not the same.

 

[stee6043]

For what it's worth the question of whether or not you can have "too much storage" is debatable. It all comes down to how you use your boiler and how well you can insulate your tank. More storage means longer burns to get your storage up to temp but you will also have longer heating cycles between burns.

I don't think you'll find any threads on this forum discussing "man, I wish I didn't have so much storage". You will, however, find several threads discussing "man, I wish I had more storage".

 

[Gasifier]

For what it’s worth the question of whether or not you can have “too much storage†is debatable. It all comes down to how you use your boiler and how well you can insulate your tank. More storage means longer burns to get your storage up to temp but you will also have longer heating cycles between burns.
I don’t think you’ll find any threads on this forum discussing “man, I wish I didn’t have so much storageâ€. You will, however, find several threads discussing “man, I wish I had more storageâ€.

I hear you on that Stee. Would Dune be able to heat 500 gallons with only 55,000 BTUs and heat demand from the house? I guess it is hard to estimate anything without knowing any of the specifics of his house heat demand and system specs. Dune, what's up with this generator? Can you give us some specs on what you are trying to do with that? Sounds like you are quite a fabricator/welder and the project sounds very interesting. Good luck with it man.

 

[hobbyheater]

Yes, the storage tank is worth the trouble. I have used a storage tank for close to thirty years now. Our first boiler was not a Gasification boiler but by adding the storage tank, it cut the wood consumption by forty percent. Our Jetstream has always been connected to the storage tank and consistently runs between eighty and eighty five percent efficiency. Our oil boiler back up also heats the storage tank. The oil boiler has a tank-less coil for domestic supply so has to maintain temperature for instant demand. By connecting the oil boiler to the storage tank, we cut its oil consumption by sixty percent. Our storage is a little over one thousand imperial gallons with dual internal heat exchangers - one for domestic and the second one for baseboard heat. The Jetstream and the storage tank share the same water in a unpressurized system with a forty gallon open ended expansion tank that is ten and one half feet above the boiler giving about three and one half pounds pressure at the boiler. Being an open ended system has not yet caused any corrosion problem, but the plumbing in the entire system is " pure " - only copper and black steel. Add a third metal and you will have corrosion. Another reason for no corrosion, we have very soft mineral free water.

 

[stee6043]

Yes, the storage tank is worth the trouble. I have used a storage tank for close to thirty years now. Our first boiler was not a Gasification boiler but by adding the storage tank, it cut the wood consumption by forty percent. Our Jetstream has always been connected to the storage tank and consistently runs between eighty and eighty five percent efficiency. Our oil boiler back up also heats the storage tank. The oil boiler has a tank-less coil for domestic supply so has to maintain temperature for instant demand. By connecting the oil boiler to the storage tank, we cut its oil consumption by sixty percent. Our storage is a little over one thousand imperial gallons with dual internal heat exchangers - one for domestic and the second one for baseboard heat. The Jetstream and the storage tank share the same water in a unpressurized system with a forty gallon open ended expansion tank that is ten and one half feet above the boiler giving about three and one half pounds pressure at the boiler. Being an open ended system has not yet caused any corrosion problem, but the plumbing in the entire system is " pure " - only copper and black steel. Add a third metal and you will have corrosion. Another reason for no corrosion, we have very soft mineral free water.

This would be far from a typical testimonial advocating thermal storage. A properly sized wood heating system should see only marginal improvements in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. A GROSSLY oversizied wood heating system is potentially going see more substantial gains in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. 40% is a pretty remarkable improvement.

Most of the gasser population will (should) tell you that the primary benefit of storage is convenient timing of fires. The secondary benefit is that you can oversize your boiler without penalty. This allows for shorter burns, faster charge and maintaining high efficiency even with a high level of output relative to demand.

 

[hobbyheater]

Yes, heat storage is worth the effort. In 1981, wood gasification and heat storage were a very new concept. The airtight stove and its smoldering fire were the in thing. The whole idea of wood gasification and heat storage came about to put an end to creosote fires. Your use of heat storage with your boiler will address this problem. No smoldering fire and if you use a thermic mixing valve between the boiler and storage, it will also help in reducing the potential for creosote build up. Cool water surrounding the fire box will produce creosote. Any time you can reduce boiler standby, you do increase boiler efficiency and decrease the production of creosote.

 

[Dune]

What do I need for ports in this tank?
My heat loop is 1", the heat exhanger for the generator engine is at least 1"
Where on the tank to I need fittings?
What about future fittings?
I'd rather put a couple extra now than have to compromise later.

 

[hobbyheater]

First I do not know what a "25000 watt Pure Plant Oil CO-Generator " could possibly be ? Help !
If the tank is horizontal, then I would put a 1" fitting at the top, a 1" at the bottom with a four way tee on both for latter additions, one 3/4" near the top for the possible addition of a aquastate and a 1/2" in one near the top and one 1/2" near the bottom for temperature gauges, and the second 1/2" at the bottom for a drain. Should your tank be installed vertical, I would add one more 1/2" port for a third temperature gauge half way up. These gauges at first will really help you in learning on how much wood to put in the boiler to achieve needed heat rises in the tank to avoid cycling the boiler, and possible creosote build up.

I have posted some info and three pictures to Heatfarmer on insulating our storage.
Have you ever posted pictures of your home made boiler?

Allan

 

[Dune]

First I do not know what a "25000 watt Pure Plant Oil CO-Generator " could possibly be ? Help !
If the tank is horizontal, then I would put a 1" fitting at the top, a 1" at the bottom with a four way tee on both for latter additions, one 3/4" near the top for the possible addition of a aquastate and a 1/2" in one near the top and one 1/2" near the bottom for temperature gauges, and the second 1/2" at the bottom for a drain. Should your tank be installed vertical, I would add one more 1/2" port for a third temperature gauge half way up. These gauges at first will really help you in learning on how much wood to put in the boiler to achieve needed heat rises in the tank to avoid cycling the boiler, and possible creosote build up.

I have posted some info and three pictures to Heatfarmer on insulating our storage.
Have you ever posted pictures of your home made boiler?

Allan

Thanks.
It is a 25KW diesel generator. I am setting it up to burn used fryolator oil (pure plant oil) as opposed to diesel or "biodiesel (80% diesel, 20% plant oil).

I can't figure out how to post pictures.

 

[hobbyheater]

Yes, the storage tank is worth the trouble. I have used a storage tank for close to thirty years now. Our first boiler was not a Gasification boiler but by adding the storage tank, it cut the wood consumption by forty percent. Our Jetstream has always been connected to the storage tank and consistently runs between eighty and eighty five percent efficiency. Our oil boiler back up also heats the storage tank. The oil boiler has a tank-less coil for domestic supply so has to maintain temperature for instant demand. By connecting the oil boiler to the storage tank, we cut its oil consumption by sixty percent. Our storage is a little over one thousand imperial gallons with dual internal heat exchangers - one for domestic and the second one for baseboard heat. The Jetstream and the storage tank share the same water in a unpressurized system with a forty gallon open ended expansion tank that is ten and one half feet above the boiler giving about three and one half pounds pressure at the boiler. Being an open ended system has not yet caused any corrosion problem, but the plumbing in the entire system is " pure " - only copper and black steel. Add a third metal and you will have corrosion. Another reason for no corrosion, we have very soft mineral free water.

This would be far from a typical testimonial advocating thermal storage. A properly sized wood heating system should see only marginal improvements in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. A GROSSLY oversizied wood heating system is potentially going see more substantial gains in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. 40% is a pretty remarkable improvement.

Most of the gasser population will (should) tell you that the primary benefit of storage is convenient timing of fires. The secondary benefit is that you can oversize your boiler without penalty. This allows for shorter burns, faster charge and maintaining high efficiency even with a high level of output relative to demand.

I found this information in the Installation, Operation And Maintenance Manual for the Orlan EKO 40 wood gasification boiler.

Hot Water Storage
For the best results, the use of a heat storage tank is recommended. A properly sized storage tank can cut wood consumption by as much as 40%. Hot water storage allows the boiler to run at optimum capacity regardless of the demand for heat from the building being heated. The stored heat can be recovered later, both stretching the time between boiler re-fuelings, and as an additional source of heat on very cold days. Generally, the bigger the storage tank the better, as the boiler is most efficient when running at full capacity. The rule of thumb on tank sizing is that 13 gallons of water can store about 1KW of boiler heat. Using the EKO 25 as an example: 13 gal/1KW x 31KW = 421 gallons, 421 gallons x 91% efficiency = 383 gallon minimum size water tank. A hot water storage tank connected to an EKO boiler can also be used to store hot water from a solar water heater.

Here is the link for this information: http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ekomanual.pdf

 

[Jack22]

First I do not know what a "25000 watt Pure Plant Oil CO-Generator " could possibly be ? Help !
If the tank is horizontal, then I would put a 1" fitting at the top, a 1" at the bottom with a four way tee on both for latter additions, one 3/4" near the top for the possible addition of a aquastate and a 1/2" in one near the top and one 1/2" near the bottom for temperature gauges, and the second 1/2" at the bottom for a drain. Should your tank be installed vertical, I would add one more 1/2" port for a third temperature gauge half way up. These gauges at first will really help you in learning on how much wood to put in the boiler to achieve needed heat rises in the tank to avoid cycling the boiler, and possible creosote build up.

I have posted some info and three pictures to Heatfarmer on insulating our storage.
Have you ever posted pictures of your home made boiler?

Allan

Thanks.
It is a 25KW diesel generator. I am setting it up to burn used fryolator oil (pure plant oil) as opposed to diesel or "biodiesel (80% diesel, 20% plant oil).

I can't figure out how to post pictures.

You got me wondering about this co-generation. Are you using the exhaust gas on the generator to heat water? I work at a cogen plant and we take the exhaust from our gas turbine generator and put it into a boiler to make steam.

 

[Dune]

First I do not know what a "25000 watt Pure Plant Oil CO-Generator " could possibly be ? Help !
If the tank is horizontal, then I would put a 1" fitting at the top, a 1" at the bottom with a four way tee on both for latter additions, one 3/4" near the top for the possible addition of a aquastate and a 1/2" in one near the top and one 1/2" near the bottom for temperature gauges, and the second 1/2" at the bottom for a drain. Should your tank be installed vertical, I would add one more 1/2" port for a third temperature gauge half way up. These gauges at first will really help you in learning on how much wood to put in the boiler to achieve needed heat rises in the tank to avoid cycling the boiler, and possible creosote build up.

I have posted some info and three pictures to Heatfarmer on insulating our storage.
Have you ever posted pictures of your home made boiler?

Allan

Thanks.
It is a 25KW diesel generator. I am setting it up to burn used fryolator oil (pure plant oil) as opposed to diesel or "biodiesel (80% diesel, 20% plant oil).

I can't figure out how to post pictures.

You got me wondering about this co-generation. Are you using the exhaust gas on the generator to heat water? I work at a cogen plant and we take the exhaust from our gas turbine generator and put it into a boiler to make steam.

The plan was to use the engine coolant, through a heat exchanger to heat the house. At one point I found a 5000 gallon tank, at which time I planned to incorporate a water cooled exhaust manifold, to capture waste exhaust heat. Logistics involving the huge tank became insurmountable for me.

 

[stee6043]

Yes, the storage tank is worth the trouble. I have used a storage tank for close to thirty years now. Our first boiler was not a Gasification boiler but by adding the storage tank, it cut the wood consumption by forty percent. Our Jetstream has always been connected to the storage tank and consistently runs between eighty and eighty five percent efficiency. Our oil boiler back up also heats the storage tank. The oil boiler has a tank-less coil for domestic supply so has to maintain temperature for instant demand. By connecting the oil boiler to the storage tank, we cut its oil consumption by sixty percent. Our storage is a little over one thousand imperial gallons with dual internal heat exchangers - one for domestic and the second one for baseboard heat. The Jetstream and the storage tank share the same water in a unpressurized system with a forty gallon open ended expansion tank that is ten and one half feet above the boiler giving about three and one half pounds pressure at the boiler. Being an open ended system has not yet caused any corrosion problem, but the plumbing in the entire system is " pure " - only copper and black steel. Add a third metal and you will have corrosion. Another reason for no corrosion, we have very soft mineral free water.

This would be far from a typical testimonial advocating thermal storage. A properly sized wood heating system should see only marginal improvements in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. A GROSSLY oversizied wood heating system is potentially going see more substantial gains in efficiency with the addition of thermal storage. 40% is a pretty remarkable improvement.

Most of the gasser population will (should) tell you that the primary benefit of storage is convenient timing of fires. The secondary benefit is that you can oversize your boiler without penalty. This allows for shorter burns, faster charge and maintaining high efficiency even with a high level of output relative to demand.

I found this information in the Installation, Operation And Maintenance Manual for the Orlan EKO 40 wood gasification boiler.

Hot Water Storage
For the best results, the use of a heat storage tank is recommended. A properly sized storage tank can cut wood consumption by as much as 40%. Hot water storage allows the boiler to run at optimum capacity regardless of the demand for heat from the building being heated. The stored heat can be recovered later, both stretching the time between boiler re-fuelings, and as an additional source of heat on very cold days. Generally, the bigger the storage tank the better, as the boiler is most efficient when running at full capacity. The rule of thumb on tank sizing is that 13 gallons of water can store about 1KW of boiler heat. Using the EKO 25 as an example: 13 gal/1KW x 31KW = 421 gallons, 421 gallons x 91% efficiency = 383 gallon minimum size water tank. A hot water storage tank connected to an EKO boiler can also be used to store hot water from a solar water heater.

Here is the link for this information: http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ekomanual.pdf

Note that I was careful to use the term "properly sized system" in my original post. Even the statement from Orlan you grabbed proves my point if you read it carefully. They mention 91% efficiency in their calcs (which is not a reasonable expectation in my experience) so where does this 40% increase in efficiency come from? You only have 9% before you hit that magical 100% efficiency which is nowhere near possible.

In order to improve the efficiency (reduce wood consumption) of an 80% efficient wood burner by 40% that wood burner would have to be running at 40% efficiency before storage. This is on-par with a lot of OWB's but NOT properly sized indoor gasser units.

Heretoforewith I stand by my original post. The statement in the EKO manual is cleary aimed towards those folks that bought an EKO 80 when they should have bought an EKO 25.

 

[2.beans]

get the tank, more for the generator. pipe size will depend on where its placed or how far its away from the wood boiler or heat load. if you dont have a lot of heat load you may want to try and get two tanks. i think your generator will heat 500 gallons fairly easy. where do get all your oil?