I just retired my Garrison II and had a Jotul F 3 CB installed. I am not at all happy with the heat the Jotul throws. It is far from the heat that was thrown by the Garrison. I have to burn it at 600 degrees to get the heat I got from the Garrison and that means constant stoking. I knew the firebox was smaller but the dealer indicated it would burn more efficiently and I would use less wood. Now he says I need to upgrade to a Castine. He knew the area I wanted to heat and he knew I had a Garrison. I am not a happy camper. Do I re-install the Garrison? Do I spend even more $ and buy the Castine? I may have posted this twice as I am trying to figure this system out....
garrison vs jotul woodstove
- Thread starter ashfarm
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Corie
Minister of Fire
Its unfortunate that your dealer seems to have recommended what we consider to be a none 24-7 type stove. The 3CB is a great unit, but not really meant to be an all the time heater unless fancy stoked it every 3 hours. That's the limitation of the small firebox and the way the modern non-cat woodstoves work.
Rather than guessing at what stove you should upgrade to, tell us what size area youre looking to heat and what the insulation situation is.
Rather than guessing at what stove you should upgrade to, tell us what size area youre looking to heat and what the insulation situation is.
I am still figuring this system out so bear with me. My house is 1800 sq ft and with the Garrison we could shut off three rooms downstairs and nicely warm the whole house. Since it is an 1840 farmhouse and has no insulation to speak of, the 3 bedrooms and half bath on the second floor were fairly warm also. The dealer wants me to buy a used Castine for $1900 when it regularly goes for $2099. I just don't want to sink any more $ into the Jotuls if the Garrison is the one to do the job. I am not sure how the dealer would react to me asking for a refund even though he knew the area I wanted to heat and had a picture of my Garrison in the kitchen and sent his installer out to suggest what stove I should get. Thanks for your help.
Corie
Minister of Fire
Yeah, he WAY undersized you with the 3CB. Sounds to me like your dealer is not the swiftest of characters. If he knows your home is 1800 sqft, he should have never sold you a 3CB unless he has no clue what he's selling. There's absolutely no way that stove would keep up with that type of heat load. The Garrison isn't the answer either, because its not a clean burner. If you get the properly sized unit in that house, you will burn less wood and will keep the chimney and environment cleaner.
With 1800 square feet, uninsulated I'd say that the castine is WAY too small. The manufacturer rates that stove for 1600 square feet, which is probably a little above its actual performance anyway. I wouldn't look any smaller than the F500 in the Jotul lineup. Shoot, with no insulation you might even want to consider the F600. However the cost of those stoves is quite a bit higher than what you paid for that 3CB. Perhaps you might want to look to a different manufacturer.
With 1800 square feet, uninsulated I'd say that the castine is WAY too small. The manufacturer rates that stove for 1600 square feet, which is probably a little above its actual performance anyway. I wouldn't look any smaller than the F500 in the Jotul lineup. Shoot, with no insulation you might even want to consider the F600. However the cost of those stoves is quite a bit higher than what you paid for that 3CB. Perhaps you might want to look to a different manufacturer.
restorer
New Member
welcome AshFarm,
We might seem to ask a lot of questions, but we will point you in the right direction. The questions will seem harsh, but we are fair. So let me start, did your dealer give you something in writing that the Jotul will do the job? Is there something that qualifies the stove you bought as the best for the job, verses a larger unit? The reason I ask is that if the dealer said this would be adequate and it's not, you should be entitled to an upgrade or refund as a misrepresentation. Most dealers will work with you, given you don't strong arm demand, but where was the deal struck?
We might seem to ask a lot of questions, but we will point you in the right direction. The questions will seem harsh, but we are fair. So let me start, did your dealer give you something in writing that the Jotul will do the job? Is there something that qualifies the stove you bought as the best for the job, verses a larger unit? The reason I ask is that if the dealer said this would be adequate and it's not, you should be entitled to an upgrade or refund as a misrepresentation. Most dealers will work with you, given you don't strong arm demand, but where was the deal struck?
Gunner
New Member
Why not go with a tried and true technology that is the PE summit....they can be had for 1900 the same price as a used castine. :coolsmile:
Corie
Minister of Fire
I'll agree with that Gunner.
I think what might hold that choice back though is the wife approval factor. No offense to you PE guys, but they ain't the purtiest things out there and to some people that really matters.
I'm still baffled that the dealer would sell you a 3CB though. What a crock.
I think what might hold that choice back though is the wife approval factor. No offense to you PE guys, but they ain't the purtiest things out there and to some people that really matters.
I'm still baffled that the dealer would sell you a 3CB though. What a crock.
Well, first off, I paid less than 1900, for my Castine, enameled and new, last August - west coast prices, a long way from Norway.
Corie is right on. The 3CB is a fine "smaller" stove. We heated a 2000 sq ft house with one, but in a much more temperate climate and hardly overnight. Below 32 degrees, the stove was struggling to keep up. For your house, you'll need an equivalent sized stove to the Garisson like the F500 or F600. I'm not sure what happened in the showroom. Did the dealer suggest other stoves? Did you tell the dealer your budget and ask that he stay within it? Did you gasp (understandably) at the price of the larger stoves?
If you're going with a Jotul, get the big guns and you'll be happy. But the single best thing you can do is to insulate that house. It will pay back many times over if the house is going to be around for another century. And then you really will get away with a smaller stove and burn less wood.
If the big Jotuls are budget-breakers, there are alternatives, like the PE's, CDWs, etc. But I'm guessing if you liked the Garisson, you like quality. And these days a good, large cast iron stove is expensive. FWIW, I made the same mistake and upgraded to the Castine. The good news is I sold my F3CB in peak market (late Sept.) for $100 less than I paid for it. Ironically, this winter nature pulled a joke on us. Big storm, power out for a week and during a good cold snap in the 20's, that's rare here. The Castine made it through, but I had to work it hard. Now I'm considering an even bigger stove. But that's me, I love trying new stoves. I can appreciate that you'd like to get on with life and just have a stove that works. Just get a good quality one that is the correct size for the job and you'll be happy - and insulate that old house this summer!
Corie is right on. The 3CB is a fine "smaller" stove. We heated a 2000 sq ft house with one, but in a much more temperate climate and hardly overnight. Below 32 degrees, the stove was struggling to keep up. For your house, you'll need an equivalent sized stove to the Garisson like the F500 or F600. I'm not sure what happened in the showroom. Did the dealer suggest other stoves? Did you tell the dealer your budget and ask that he stay within it? Did you gasp (understandably) at the price of the larger stoves?
If you're going with a Jotul, get the big guns and you'll be happy. But the single best thing you can do is to insulate that house. It will pay back many times over if the house is going to be around for another century. And then you really will get away with a smaller stove and burn less wood.
If the big Jotuls are budget-breakers, there are alternatives, like the PE's, CDWs, etc. But I'm guessing if you liked the Garisson, you like quality. And these days a good, large cast iron stove is expensive. FWIW, I made the same mistake and upgraded to the Castine. The good news is I sold my F3CB in peak market (late Sept.) for $100 less than I paid for it. Ironically, this winter nature pulled a joke on us. Big storm, power out for a week and during a good cold snap in the 20's, that's rare here. The Castine made it through, but I had to work it hard. Now I'm considering an even bigger stove. But that's me, I love trying new stoves. I can appreciate that you'd like to get on with life and just have a stove that works. Just get a good quality one that is the correct size for the job and you'll be happy - and insulate that old house this summer!
My suggestion sell the Jotul, buy an Englander NC-30 and put the money difference into insulation of your home. Start with the attic ceiling first
Energy independence is two fold, the wood /pellet stove to produce heat and good insulation to hold in the heat you produce
The garison is nt a stove of great design and beauty The Englander does have trim kits and will look nicer, plus most and cleanest BTUs for the buck
Energy independence is two fold, the wood /pellet stove to produce heat and good insulation to hold in the heat you produce
The garison is nt a stove of great design and beauty The Englander does have trim kits and will look nicer, plus most and cleanest BTUs for the buck
carpniels
Minister of Fire
Hi Ashfarm,
Sorry to hear what the dealertold you. If you had read the brochure, you would have known that that stove is way to small with too small of a capacity. I have had a Castine (and I would have sold you mine for $1000), and that is also too small. It will heat 1600 ft, but only if it is reasonably insulated. And you house obviously isn't.
I would sell the 3CB on Ebay or craigslist and take my money somewhere else. The dealer is not too good at what he does. Or he just looks after himself. $1900 for a used castine is too much. Half that is a good price. There was a Jotul sale recently and they gave 10% of the new price, which should have been around $1600 after discount.
A lot also depends on the climate you live in. Where in the USA are you?
I agree with the others that you need a large and efficient woodstove. My current Quadrafire Isle Royale will do the job just fine, as well as the PE summit others suggested. Or even the Englander, which I know nothing about.
And elk is right, attic insulation will pay off big time. I suggest the soft foam insulation. More expensive than fiberglass, but it does not compact, water does not affect it and it insulates at R7 per inch. Well worth the money.
carpniels
Sorry to hear what the dealertold you. If you had read the brochure, you would have known that that stove is way to small with too small of a capacity. I have had a Castine (and I would have sold you mine for $1000), and that is also too small. It will heat 1600 ft, but only if it is reasonably insulated. And you house obviously isn't.
I would sell the 3CB on Ebay or craigslist and take my money somewhere else. The dealer is not too good at what he does. Or he just looks after himself. $1900 for a used castine is too much. Half that is a good price. There was a Jotul sale recently and they gave 10% of the new price, which should have been around $1600 after discount.
A lot also depends on the climate you live in. Where in the USA are you?
I agree with the others that you need a large and efficient woodstove. My current Quadrafire Isle Royale will do the job just fine, as well as the PE summit others suggested. Or even the Englander, which I know nothing about.
And elk is right, attic insulation will pay off big time. I suggest the soft foam insulation. More expensive than fiberglass, but it does not compact, water does not affect it and it insulates at R7 per inch. Well worth the money.
carpniels
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
I think what folks are saying (if I can translate) are to get the next size up - whether that is a Jotul or a PE or Englander, etc. matters less. You can use budget and style and other factors to make that decision - but we all seem to agree that the #3 is a great stove but not what we would use for a 24/7 type of job. In my opinion, it is what I might call "a one to two cord a year stove" for the person who comes home from work and fires up the stove HOT, but then lets it go out at bedtime, etc.
Of course, as Begreen mentions, it also depends on climate. A #3 is really good for a lot of the country, but New England and certain other areas make it "physically challenged", in other words "small".
Of course, as Begreen mentions, it also depends on climate. A #3 is really good for a lot of the country, but New England and certain other areas make it "physically challenged", in other words "small".
Thanks for all the advice. I am the wife, by the way.... I will go to the dealertoday armed with my old Garrison manual, which I found- with all the specs- and find out what he can do for me as far as a comparable heat output.. I had also ordered a 40' x40' fire pad to go with the Jotul 3CB so if I do go with the Castine I'm hoping that pad will squeak by. We are upgrading our electric from 60 amps to 200 so I can't really afford to insulate the house at the moment.
I had wanted to keep the price down so that is probably why he pushed the 3CB but he knew I had been using a GarrisonII and sent his installer to look my situation over. I told them I could turn off the furnace and keep most of the house warm when I shut off one wing. I would actually like to re-install the Garrison but I suppose environmentally that is not the most responsible thing to do. I don't miss the smoke pouring out the 2 back vents of the Garrison or waking everybody up when I open the noisy vents in the morning. This all started because our insurance premiums went up because we hadn't "revitalized". The Garrison was illegally installed. So safety and insurance premiums have won out and heating capacity has lost... The manual for the GarrisonII says the heat output is 37,000BTU/hour up to 7,000 cu.ft.. The Castine is 55,000BTU/hr.up to 1,600sq.ft. How far off are cu. ft. from sq. ft. from each other? I don't know how to convert sq. ft. to cubic ft.. BeGreen said the equivalent to our Garrison is a Jotul 500 or 600. Wow. The kitchen (14' x 16' x 8' tall) where the stove lives might melt.
I had wanted to keep the price down so that is probably why he pushed the 3CB but he knew I had been using a GarrisonII and sent his installer to look my situation over. I told them I could turn off the furnace and keep most of the house warm when I shut off one wing. I would actually like to re-install the Garrison but I suppose environmentally that is not the most responsible thing to do. I don't miss the smoke pouring out the 2 back vents of the Garrison or waking everybody up when I open the noisy vents in the morning. This all started because our insurance premiums went up because we hadn't "revitalized". The Garrison was illegally installed. So safety and insurance premiums have won out and heating capacity has lost... The manual for the GarrisonII says the heat output is 37,000BTU/hour up to 7,000 cu.ft.. The Castine is 55,000BTU/hr.up to 1,600sq.ft. How far off are cu. ft. from sq. ft. from each other? I don't know how to convert sq. ft. to cubic ft.. BeGreen said the equivalent to our Garrison is a Jotul 500 or 600. Wow. The kitchen (14' x 16' x 8' tall) where the stove lives might melt.
Stove specs should be taken with a grain of salt. Based on experience the Castine won't heat the house well until it is insulated, and then, in your climate, it will be challenged when the temps drop below 20.
It will probably need a larger hearth pad as well. Wait a bit to decide, there are some more folks here that are close by. Perhaps they can recommend another dealer or two. If you can post a photo of the current installation that would help. It's hard to talk about sizing of stoves before seeing if there are any clearances issues to be dealt with.
Does the current dealer only sell Jotul? Is Keene, NH or Brattleboro, VT closer? I am looking at Fireplace Village in Keene. They also carry Vermont Castings and Napoleon. The large Napoleon 1400PL may give you the most bang for your dollar.
It will probably need a larger hearth pad as well. Wait a bit to decide, there are some more folks here that are close by. Perhaps they can recommend another dealer or two. If you can post a photo of the current installation that would help. It's hard to talk about sizing of stoves before seeing if there are any clearances issues to be dealt with.
Does the current dealer only sell Jotul? Is Keene, NH or Brattleboro, VT closer? I am looking at Fireplace Village in Keene. They also carry Vermont Castings and Napoleon. The large Napoleon 1400PL may give you the most bang for your dollar.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
As Begreen mentions, do not use published specs. A more accurate spec is how much wood (in pound) that you can fit into the stove. Although newer stoves are more efficient than the Garrison, they are not THAT MUCH more efficient. For instance, when running hot the Garrison might approach 55-60%, and the Jotul 70%. So compare the firebox sizes for the best idea of size.
ashfarm said:
cubic foot is a "volume" term and you get it by multiplying the room length times the width times the height...i.e., cubic feet is the entire volume of the room that air fills
square feet is an "area" term and you get it by multiplying the room length times the width...i.e., square feet is the area of the floor you can walk on...the floor....
if you have 7,000 cubic feet as volume, divide it by the average height of your ceiling to get square feet. If you have 8 ft ceilings, then 7,000 cubic feet equals 876 square feet (7,000/8 = 876 sq ft). If you have 12 ft ceilings then you have 583 sq ft (7,000/12 = 583 sq ft)
Stoves are rated using "square feet"...the area that they'll heat but this is a bad way to do it because without knowing the room average height, you don't know the cubic feet and a stove that can heat 1,600 sq ft with 7 ft ceilings would have a hard time heating one that has 12 ft ceilings..... I'm assuming that stove manufacturers use an average ceiling height of about 7-8 ft high when they quote their sq ft capability. That would mean that a stove that can heat 1,600 sq feet can heat about 12,000 cubic feet (1600 x 7.5 = 12,000 cubic feet). If you take that same 1,600 sq ft with 12 ft ceilings however, you're now talking about 19,200 cubic feet (1,600 x 12 = 19,000 cubic feet) and it probably can't do it. Also, these stove ratings assume some level of insulation and minimal air intrusion (draft) in the house. Put these two assumptions together (7.5 ft ceilings and some nominal insulation and draft level) and if your house has much taller ceilings and/or little to no insulation and/or a lot of drafts, then you CANNOT rely on these stove ratings of square feet as a measure with which to heat your house.......and you'll have to get a stove with much higher square foot advertised heating capacity to heat your house....and then heat distribution becomes a problem...you get "blown-out" in one room trying to force air into adjacent rooms.....
hope this helps.
I began asking questions, ,just like you, last Fall when I started looking for a stove. I've had tons of great responses, and still no stove. I liked the Jotul CB but discovered it would be too small. Decided to get the Castine but kept looking. Checked out the PE - whick I liked but my wife didn't care for the style. Came back to the Castine and saw a Hearthstone Heritage(soapstone) when we went to finalize the Castine purchase. Short story -there are a lot of great stoves out there and you'll find one that meets all your needs. We're almost finished with a remodel and didn't really want the stove until that was out of the way - so the hunt has been enjoyable. Now, looks like we're close to bringing home a soapstone stove - but I'm still not done asking questions about it. Good luck and let us know what you end up with.
Everyone has been so helpful and I thank you. I went back to the dealertoday, armed with everyone's comments from Hearth.com. He will give me a break buying up - Castine. I measured the firebox of my Garrison vs the Castine and they are very close in size. He says I can use the same pad as the one for the Jotul 3CB and he will only charge me his cost for double walled pipe. Next - I will insulate the house..... Thank you to all.....
Mike Wilson
New Member
Glad to hear your dealer is working with you somewhat... That said, although I like the Castine, for your application I'd get an F-500 Oslo. Even with insulation, a Castine will be working to keep up with a house like yours.
-- Mike
-- Mike
I agree with Mike. Your climate and home insulation situation , you need more BTUs You will be in the same situation pushing the castine to produce productive heat.
It is a lot easier to put fewer splits in a larger stove, than to fire a smaller one hot all the time
It is a lot easier to put fewer splits in a larger stove, than to fire a smaller one hot all the time
Agreed the F500 is a better fit and I own the F400. However, I suspect the Oslo will need a larger hearth pad.
carpniels
Minister of Fire
Ashfarm,
Please don't go back to the dealer. Most guys here agree you need BTUs for the climate and size and insulation of the house. So you need heavy duty heating. So get an Oslo or similar size large stove.
Since you know what you want, try to find one used. I have seen many large size EPA approved stoves for sale this heating season. It will save you tons of money.
And a hearth pad can easily be built yourself. Since you are short on cash (and who isn't) that would get you what you need without spending too much cash.
And you can sell your # back to the dealer or on Ebay, craigslist, etc.
Carpniels
PS> I agree with Begreen. I had a castine too and it will not heat your house. You need an Olso or Firelight.
Please don't go back to the dealer. Most guys here agree you need BTUs for the climate and size and insulation of the house. So you need heavy duty heating. So get an Oslo or similar size large stove.
Since you know what you want, try to find one used. I have seen many large size EPA approved stoves for sale this heating season. It will save you tons of money.
And a hearth pad can easily be built yourself. Since you are short on cash (and who isn't) that would get you what you need without spending too much cash.
And you can sell your # back to the dealer or on Ebay, craigslist, etc.
Carpniels
PS> I agree with Begreen. I had a castine too and it will not heat your house. You need an Olso or Firelight.
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